Russia warns of pre-emptive strike on AMD if NATO goes ahead

Originally posted by Jameela

While I see this as political posturing, I do believe Russia is quite serious in wanting to defend herself from anything encroaching on Russian National Security. With US bases closing in across the globe and with many of Russia's allies being attacked in one form or another, she is starting to feel a strong need to defend herself. Such being the case, I put more stock in the threats and political posturing.

www.prisonplanet.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 3-5-2012 by Jameela because: (no reason given)

I agree with you entirely here. Russia is never going to storm down the roads and re-invade Eastern Europe. The battle for the Fulda Gap never happened..thank God..and never will. I think it's posturing too...

Then again, maybe not so much? Invasion and military attack seems a bit far fetched, but as Iran can testify to about a certain computer worm, attacks come in all forms. It wouldn't shock me if Russia DID destroy NATO/American Missile sites, but in silence and by computer code.

That was quite a move with Stuxnet. It earns respect. It really has to...The problem is, payback is coming and it's always worse than what caused it. Iran isn't the bleeding edge world class to nuke us with computer code, but Russia is.

Finally the Great Bear speaks.

Lets see what he'll do now officially out of hibernation... maybe he woke up with a temper.

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

As a Canadian,, i hope i can reply for our American ,, grumpy insane, but still American,,ya,,but anyway,,

THE CIVIL WAR.
Europeans,, all Europeans,, are not able too fathom, the heartbreak,,destruction, and the great sorrow this wound, caused,, but indeed it did heal,,
And afterwards, not one war between the states was fought, too the point of the CIVIL WAR.

Thats 200 years or more of PEACE. from all out WAR.

Sadly this was why Americans were reluctant too enter the ww2 conflict in Europe,, cause war is bad. period.

If u think that America has never tasted war on it's soil,,fought brother against brother, man against man,,
in the perspective of European Conflict,,of blood on there own soil,,,you are wrong,, in said thinking,,
And besides when blood hits the ground,, does it matter on what soil?

Me.

I will stand corrected if you can find and post an external source for the American Civil War?

Originally posted by Jameela
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

I am sorry, but I do not believe I understand... did I miss a war? When exactly did the US kick the USSR?

And also I am not understanding your meaning on 4 super powers in the world today, one being Russia and one being USSR?

I am not clear on what exactly your ideas and thoughts happen to be.

Can you describe the current super powers?
Can you tell me what happened to the folks of the displaced USSR?

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by R0CR13

 

it's not that the disadvantage of of not being able to launch a first strike on Europe . It's the disadvantage of having you defensive missiles shot down during a first strike on Russia . Why Would they Worry ? Because people like Brzezinski en.wikipedia.org... Have openly stated in a policy that is still being carried out of encirclement of Russia and China and provoking war between them .

If we were sitting at a table having a beer and a friendly conversation, I'd look at you with a smile and say 'You're nuts'.

NATO vs. Russia and China? How? What manpower equals china alone?

So, we nuke them? Right. We decimate a large part of the surface of the planet, rendering unfit for habitation (or anything else) for centuries.

NATO evokes a war in which they are hugely outnumbered during a time of economic crisis and civil unrest.

That is about as logical, no matter how thirsty you may be, as drinking water from a toilet in a Greyhound depot.

man, I really wonder about some of the brains running around this website anymore. Are you paid by some organization or political entity to drive home the most ridiculous notions one can conceive?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be critical but... there is no logic, no common sense behind any of that. It's political and grown in a garden of the silly.

Here's hoping things get better before they get worse in terms of verbal convection, lol.

To me it is not that Russia believes that she will be hit today, but in recent history this is what we see with US bases surrounding Russia




What you have is a huge ring around Russia, disturbing the balance of power, if this same ring was around the United States, the United States would not even question going to war against the countries doing this. Russia is being decidedly calm about these events, til now...

at some point you have to say, enough... and perhaps this is the stand Russia has chosen. First, regardless of whether or not it would be able to stop a lot of missiles (although new technologies available which I believe are possibly being used in this system there is no determining this), this shield is one more thing to upset the balance of power.

The point of the nuclear arms race was never to actually use them, in fact, US was the only ones who have used them, which makes the mentality of the US one with a complete disregard to life that does not hesitate in the implementation of "By any means possible"

For the rest of the world the arms race was an effort to keep such an unstable mindset from using nuclear warfare against them. If US were to decide to use them against your country, they threaten retaliation in kind in effort to keep their country safe from unprovoked invasion. When there comes a limit of that mental deterrent, then the entire check and balance system of the US being deterred from the usage of nuclear weapons is gone, or at least severely limited.

It is a matter of another country being able to keep her sovereignty, something the US historically does not respect in regards other nations, as we have now seen around the globe. If Russia is to make a stand, and keep the US at bay from deciding upon a world dominance which would include the overtaking of Russia at any point in the future, now would be the time to act.

As you have pointed out, right now the US is spread too thin, and NATO countries are facing economic crises of their own. If Russia waits until this system is in place and working at top efficiency to make any stand against US encroachment she wont be able to and I believe US knows that...

Russia has to assert her sovereignty now or it wont be as easy a stand. If she waits, she may as well wait until she is completely cut off from the world at some point in the future and US soldiers are invading her land. Now is the time for Russia to say we wont allow that scenario, and the time to stand against any further encroachments upon her rights to be a sovereign, in order to keep the balance of power as it stands now.

Financially, Russia is in a better position financially than any other country in the world. This economic crises has not hurt Russia at all because she was good with her money, and has less debt and a healthy GDP... Now is the best time for Russia to say no more, because if she doesn't say no more there never will be an end.

I believe this is less about going to war, and more about asserting her rights as a sovereign nation, one which has no intention of being a victim in the future.

Therefore, while I agree with you that currently US is not planning any Russian invasion, it does not mean that Russia does not have need of looking into future scenarios. It is like chess, if you cannot plan both your moves and your opponents moves several moves ahead of the current play, you will loose.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


While I agree with you that an attack of this nature would be the optimum form of attack, I am not certain that Russia sufficiently poses enough of the technological edge needed for such an attack to be either sustaining or long term. China might, and of course China and Russia are allies, but even China is busy stealing secrets from the US... so I am not certain of this being a real possibility.

I'm calling their bluff, a storm in a glass of water..

Besides, "AMD" and the D stands for defence. I highly doubt they can ever make a strong case to stop NATO or any other country from building defence equipment within their own souverinity.

Originally posted by Elexio
I'm calling their bluff, a storm in a glass of water..

Besides, "AMD" and the D stands for defence. I highly doubt they can ever make a strong case to stop NATO or any other country from building defence equipment within their own souverinity.

Call it what you want, believe in what you want, thing is... you really want to see who blinks first? Are you willing to pay the price to see if you're wrong or right? I'm not...

reply to post by Jameela

Well, fair point to a degree on that about technological levels. However, I wonder if we might not be thinking about different things. Russia and China both have something that the West hasn't had for at least 15 years now. They've had a virtual 'God-Mode' style sandbox for their hackers to learn in without fear of serious consequence. The Pentagon, for instance, is hit daily from China based systems. Many call the PLA for being behind it, but I've always thought that was over thinking things. China's Military would more likely just call one of their people working inside the Pentagon to begin with and ask whatever they want.

I think a great deal of what we see is what started as "Gold Farmers" in the MMORPG games. Also, largely from China. There, they were crews of Chinese being paid peanuts to accumulate items and "currency" of value in games like Final Fantasy XI and Everquest so they could be packaged and sold on websites for actual cash. A rather staggering business these days for volume. Who said cheaters never prosper?

Now the Gold Farmers graduate to hackers and China/Russia both seem just fine with that as long as 100% of their efforts are directed outside the nation and nothing back at them..... That is the threat I figure the U.S. is likely to see. Satellites, GPS, Weapons systems..whatever is hackable. We'll find very fast in a war with the BIG nations, just how secure we are.

Originally posted by Outofcontrol

Originally posted by Elexio
I'm calling their bluff, a storm in a glass of water..

Besides, "AMD" and the D stands for defence. I highly doubt they can ever make a strong case to stop NATO or any other country from building defence equipment within their own souverinity.

Call it what you want, believe in what you want, thing is... you really want to see who blinks first? Are you willing to pay the price to see if you're wrong or right? I'm not...

As long as people keep using their minds, i don't see any problems. It's been like this for a long time and Russia has been sending their bombers toward NATO airspace for years now just to test the reaction time and everything. We don't shoot down those bombers either, do we?

In the end, it's a storm in a glass of water aslong a they keep using their minds!

Some of this has gone over my head a bit, it is not something I pay too much attention to, rightly or otherwise, but it does nevertheless interest me.
Does it not, like so many other things come back to the lowest common denominator.......money?

I understand that China and Russia pursue interests jointly, and totally see why Russia being poked in the eye from time to time by the USA might start to hurt a bit.

One of the facts that surely needs to be considered is the sheer amount of money the USA owes China. As the link below indicates, a request for higher interest to be paid on the debt would cripple the US. To this end, isn't this the sword of Damacles hanging over the American head? Don't mess with my mate Russia or I will stop your pocket money. Or words to that effect?


mediamatters.org...

This illustrates it with pretty blue blobs as of May 2011:

chartsbin.com...

This may summarise things, as laid out in the opening thread:

www.washingtonsblog.com...

I just don't think there are many places on earth, least of all the USA, in a fit enough state to start wasting money they have not got on flexing muscles.

If I have got this wrong, please educate me!

Russia has every reason to be pissed about that anti-missle shield in poland. The threat of communism from russia and china has been dead for 20 years now but the insanity persists.

In fact what is the purpose for nato? To make european nations spend more and more for the heck of it? To keep people employed? To instigate attacks against imaginary enemies?

The democrats should abandon the idea as it was terrible from the beginning. I will criticise russia for supporting syria and iran, but this time all the blame goes to nato. If we are not fighting for political systems it seems we will fight to open new markets and keep the war machine rolling. Sooner or later something bad will happen......

We should be exploring space and developing renewable energy solutions rather than continuing on the road of hostile racism!

Originally posted by Jameela
defend herself from anything encroaching on Russian National Security. With US bases closing in across the globe and with many of Russia's allies being attacked in one form or another, she

The pronoun for an empty vodka bottle is not "her" or "she".

Russia is much like Iran. All bark and no bite. They know they can not stand up to US nor NATO, so they run their mouths like a little girl.

reply to post by kellynap43

If Obama has that attitude....and the people around him act while thinking that about Russia or China, I think the U.S. could find itself in deep water and drowning before even realizing how far it's gone. That would all likely come before it broke into the open view of the public, in my opinion.

I've been seeing people for a few months now talking about Russia like they're some reduced, 2nd tier power or something. (???) The U.S. thought they were quite a match when our military was 3 time's this size. Russia just hasn't been anyone's threat for 20 years now because they've been having endless domestic problems and chosen to stay out of things beyond their borders. They're #1 for Gas, in the top for Oil, Gold and more and they carry VERY little debt compared to Uncle Sam spending like a teenager with a charge card.

If the bear has awoken from hibernation, it still stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific and the Caspian to the Arctic. I've also heard Russia referred to in many ways through history, but wimpy or incapable for following through isn't among them. Clear back to the Czars and long before that. I hope...Putin isn't getting obnoxious and looking to expand. Obama isn't up to this. Libya is more his speed.

reply to post by Jameela


This is interesting to me. Russia needs a large war and/or opponent to re-establish its old power base. Similarly all the opposition Iran receives only strengthens the hold over the people by the regime in charge. Russia would need a totalitarian rule to govern all the former soviet blocks. They need the US and NATO as enemies. That is the only way to secure their former empire. I am sure that if there was a war with Russia both would cut a deal in which both agree to work together behind the curtain.

As I see it.

1. faked civil war at home.

2. faked Russian aggression to end civil war abruptly and consolidate power for the final stage in establishing totalitarian rule.

3. Under the protection offered a dictatorship, the human populace will be altered genetically and establish a structured society in which flags and old rivalries are insignificant. A worker class, a ruler class, with small differences throughout.

Tran humanism's intolerance to democratic society. Nietzsche's over man. Hitler´s over man. Our current leaders view of a trans-human. Singularity, whatever

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), a fervent philosopher who was anti-democracy, anti-Christianity, anti-Judaism, anti-socialist and self-acclaimed Anti-Christ, expressed his belief in a master race and the coming of a superman in many of his works. In his unique aphoristic style, Nietzsche wrote in The Genealogy of Morals (III 14):

The sick are the great danger of man, not the evil, not the 'beasts of prey.' They who are from the outset botched, oppressed, broken those are they, the weakest are they, who most undermine the life beneath the feet of man, who instill the most dangerous venom and skepticism into our trust in life, in man, in ourselves…Here teem the worms of revenge and vindictiveness; here the air reeks of things secret and unmentionable; here is ever spun the net of the most malignant conspiracy – the conspiracy of the sufferers against the sound and the victorious; here is the sight of the victorious hated.

www.history.ucsb.edu...

Nietzsche, like Goethe, held no high opinion of the German people, and in other ways, too, the outpourings of this megalomaniacal genius differ from those of the chauvinistic German thinkers of the nineteenth century.... The Germans, he wrote in Ecce Homo, "have no conception how vile they are," and he came to the conclusion that "wheresoever's Germany penetrated, she ruins culture." He thought that Christians, as much as Jews, were responsible for the "slave morality" prevalent in the world. He was never an anti-Semite. He was sometimes fearful of Prussian culture, and in his last years, before insanity closed his mind, he even toyed with the idea of European union and world government.

www.j-bradford-delong.net...

There was some ground for this appropriation of Nietzsche as one of the originators of the Nazi Weltanschauung. Had not the philosopher thundered against democracy and parliaments, preached the will to power, praised war and proclaimed the coming of the master race and the superman--and in the most telling aphorisms? A Nazi could proudly quote him on almost every conceivable subject, and did

Finally there was Nietzsche's prophecy of the coming elite who would rule the world and from whom the superman would spring. In The Will to Power he exclaims: "A daring and ruler race is building itself up.... The aim should be to prepare a trans-valuation of values for a particularly strong kind of man, most highly gifted in intellect and will. This man and the elite around him will become the 'lords of the earth'."

That's the why folks. They don't mind if most of us die off. They only need a few thousand to start off with anyways. Russia would be used as a game changer should the designed revolt get out of hand.

reply to post by kellynap43


I think you may find that Iran has more bite then we thought. We'll be seeing this in the near future.

Dear mr. Amajehindad back in January, was suspected of contacting Hugo Chavez to construct a medium to long range missile base on Venezuela's soil. Such a thing would give Iran strike ability into parts of Florida and the southern states. The department of defense has denied all claims of this happening, as has Hugo Chavez, but would Chavez really admit to it? And would the Department of Defense want to admit to a threat so close to U.S. soil?

Also keep in mind some Iranian missile tests that have happened over the last year or two. In these tests, the Iranian's would fire a missile off a boat and it would go straight up for a while and then explode. They'd say 'Oh it was guidance failure, our test was a failure,' and then sail merrily back to port. What if it wasn't a failure though? A nuclear war head, detonated far above the U.S. would create a EMP pulse and destabilize U.S. civilian infrastructure. You don't even need a particularly large warhead, one in the kiloton range as opposed to the megaton range would do enough harm. Check out Starfish Prime, it was U.S. nuclear test that caused a EMP pulse near Hawaii. It did cause some harm, but bear in mine that was like 70's power systems, which were far less susceptible to that sort of thing. If your goal is military, that's not the best of attacks, as most military hardware is shielded and you just succeed in kicking the hornets’ nest, but what about the civilians?

Without the infrastructure people will die. Even if it's over a course of just two months (though it would probably be longer to repair) you'd see transportation disrupted. Food wouldn't be able to get into metropolitan areas. You'd see water sanitation and transportation infrastructure go offline. Most major cities would run out of clean drinking water damn quick. Not to mention a myriad of other things going offline.

My point isn't to justify U.S. foreign policy, as it is needlessly heavy handed, but it is to illustrate that there are real threats out there. For the EMP strike, all Iran has to do is sail a freighter out to about 200 miles off shore, shoot a missile off the deck, and scuttle the ship to destroy the evidence.

And if you don't think there's a motive, do remember that Amajehindad does not like the West, and has called the states 'The Great Satan' on more than one occasion. When I say does not like, what I really mean is, wishes them dead.

Now back on track, this thread is about Russia and the U.S. not Iran and the U.s... though one could argue that they're tied too close together to seperate at this point. Enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that jazz.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Please take into consideration into spending for R&D and defense.


USA
Defense Budget: $692,000,000,000 [2011]
Purchasing Power: $14,660,000,000,000 [2011]

Total Population: 313,232,044 [2011]
Available Manpower: 145,212,012 [2011]
Fit for Service: 120,022,084 [2011]
Of Military Age: 4,217,412 [2011]
Active Military: 1,477,896 [2011]
Active Reserve: 1,458,500


Russia
Defense Budget: $56,000,000,000 [2011]
Purchasing Power: $2,223,000,000,000 [2011]

Total Population: 138,739,892 [2011]
Available Manpower: 69,117,271 [2011]
Fit for Service: 46,812,553 [2011]
Of Military Age: 1,354,202 [2011]
Active Military: 1,200,000 [2011]
Active Reserve: 754,000 [2011]


This is where I will give you a chance to retract your statement. It sounded really foolish after looking at these stats.

www.globalfirepower.com...

reply to post by Vaykun


Cant argue with you. EMP is a very scary weapon. One that could cause lots of damage.

I just hope they take into consideration with US economy gone, they too will be gone.

reply to post by redoubt

unless they are upset because they couldn't launch missiles and destroy European cities.

Why would they want to do that? European cities are their gas customers.

No they simply feel threatened by a big bully.