The plight of the deer in the Northern United States populated areas.

No they are migrating as the young bucks seek to claim their own territory. Bucks range far and wide. And some of them even PREFER the suburbs over the woods. They adapt very well and within a few generations are capable of evolving amazing cognitive skills one wouldn't normally associate with a prey animal. I don't have a linkable article but I read about this in print a few years ago. There was a study done on how they adapt and evolve so well to suburban life in the MD DC VA metro area.

The suburbs are a draw for them due to our yummy gardens and the mix of woods and open lawn space developed areas tend to have. And then there is the bonus of no natural predators. But that doesn't necessarily mean there is a plethora of predators driving them out of their original habitat or even that people have driven them out. Deer have made themselves at home in my old county and that county was overdeveloped and blighted and nature free for nearly half my life.

What you have with the coyotes is a way to get rid of the deer nature's way. And as horrific as that sounds, there is a side benefit of fewer deer ticks and Lyme disease as well as fewer horrific traffic accidents and the occasional attack by a nasty buck (a MD man and his DOG were attacked and the man was gored just minding their own business). I have personally had to deal with scary behavior from bucks AND does during my own walks with my own large dog. Our deer are quite cocky and many have lost the fear of humans over the generations. It's not a pleasant thing to live with such large animals with attitude. And the amount of poop is amazing. The copious piles of poop have wrought havoc with recess at my kid's school. I shovel it into the ivy here at home.

But I've heard enough about coyotes to understand you would prefer to keep the deer and not attract such a threat to humans and pets. So even though it sounds like I don't, I actually do sympathize with your plight. I think if you have already tried to make your proposals heard and been turned away, you could possibly try running for an elected position that might give you more power in the situation...if you have the means to do so.

Originally posted by beezzer
Is there a bounty on the coy-dogs?

Back home, we'd get 5 dollars/pelt.

These coyotes are a special breed and are actually "Coy Wolves". They look like beautiful 100+ pound red-ish grey German Shepherds that have the skulking movement of a coyote. They are hunted state-wide.

New England coyotes are bigger than their cousins on the Western plains, and often have russet coats. They look more wolflike. Now research suggests this is because they hybridized with wolves as they migrated east over the last century.

The mixing of coyote and wolf genes allowed the animal to rapidly evolve larger, more powerful jaws, better adapted to preying on whitetail deer. One Massachusetts biologist says the animals deserve a new moniker: coywolves.

Not only are the Eastern coyotes bigger than their Western cousins, they have more varied coloration, which Kays said “can happen just from mixing up the coyote and wolf genes.’’ In addition to the typical gray coats, many Eastern coyotes are reddish. Kays said some even look like German shepherds, but do not carry any dog genes.

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www.boston.com...

There are many great posts here, each with a different twist , but valid in their own right. I guess I could even go after the coyotes here, but in a few posters words, they are a control that keeps the deer in check, and I agree they have a right to live as well, at least not dying from the same hand that does not want the deer to die as well... It is a conundrum.

The fact that I am, geographically , removed from a lot of the natural world, yet it is showing a side of itself in my back yard is giving more presence to ponder.

So... these posts are great, they are giving me what I asked for, and I get to contemplate that. Thanks ATS.

I belong to a local shooters club here in Upper Michigan and they, along with other hunting clubs, have predator hunts to lower the coyote and other predators populations. The coyotes were getting so overpopulated around here before they started these hunts that they would come into my yard in packs. Since they trimmed the populations the other animals are starting to rebound. There are partridge around and a few rabbits too. These predators are necessary but their numbers get out of balance easily and they desiccate the woods of other life. That is our job as humans, keep the predators in balance.

Try contacting a hunters/shooters clubs and see if they can help to control the populations. I don't know your laws there, there may be permits to acquire.

Originally posted by Anmarie96
reply to post by charlyv

 

Hunters need not apply - here applying - the coyote - take them out any way you can!!!! day, night, when ever!!.. As a women who is 5' 1" 102 lbs and has been for the past 25 years of my adult life and lives in the back woods and has almost been attached many time!!! and hear the many of dying calls from the fawns in my outer fields under the howls of the Coyote -- Fences will not protect anything - are you really kidding me? Old word of wisdom - how do you kill a Coyote = any way you can!!

Annmar96, it might help us to understand Charly's problem better if you could tell us a bit more about the problems coyotes pose. So far a lot of us know about deer and the havoc they wreak, but not a lot of us suburbanites have first hand experience of coyote. I know and enjoynthe company of foxes, which are quite humorous and get along fine with my dogs and leave cats alone so far as I've heard. I know raccoons used to be pleasant to have around but generations in proximity to man have made them aggressive and unpredictable. Coyotes are alien beasts to me, I've never seen one in person. Can you give me an idea of their size and behavior from the perspective of someone who has to put up with them?

I do know they eat pet cats and small dogs as I've heard of people out west talking about that. I'm not familiar with them as an eastern pest as Charly is experiencing them. Unfortunately I think it's only a matter if time before I find out though. I hear Bald Eagles and bear are coming back around where I live. Interesting. Gulp.


CharlyB I don't mean to derail your thread with my question. I seek to understand better what you are up against because as I said, I feel this will be coming my way too, in due time.

Originally posted by rickymouse
I belong to a local shooters club here in Upper Michigan and they, along with other hunting clubs, have predator hunts to lower the coyote and other predators populations. The coyotes were getting so overpopulated around here before they started these hunts that they would come into my yard in packs. Since they trimmed the populations the other animals are starting to rebound. There are partridge around and a few rabbits too. These predators are necessary but their numbers get out of balance easily and they desiccate the woods of other life. That is our job as humans, keep the predators in balance.

Try contacting a hunters/shooters clubs and see if they can help to control the populations. I don't know your laws there, there may be permits to acquire.

We have overpopulation of coyotes here in lower MI as well. I have never heard so many as I have this year. I hunt them regularly on my parents farm south of town. Here north of town where my house is, I am surrounded by state land that is full of coyote dens. Not enough hunters actually go out and go after them as oppossed to the deer. I guess maybe I will have to make up for that seeing as how one of my neighbors cats just went missing.

reply to post by Anmarie96


You people think that it's as simple as pulling a trigger.

But the problem will get worse over time as development encroaches further into deer habitat.

We're too busy worried about our perfect suburban lives to care about the fact that we're CAUSING this problem by developing in these areas!

Duhhhh!!!

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by Anmarie96

 

You people think that it's as simple as pulling a trigger.

To me it's about wildlife managment and conservation.

But the problem will get worse over time as development encroaches further into deer habitat.

We're too busy worried about our perfect suburban lives to care about the fact that we're CAUSING this problem by developing in these areas!

Duhhhh!!!

You are right about this. This is why I live in the country and do not contribute to that problem.

reply to post by usmc0311


I just took a course in ecosystem management. This topic comes up often, especially in regard to what are known as "edges", "connectors" and "riparian buffers".

All three refer to the situation of wildlife within an ecosystem, especially when they encounter human development.

We should be developing more abandoned farmland and less wetlands. Leave the wetlands and forests alone.

reply to post by The Sword


Around here they have local farmers active in the conservation rehabilitation program. They are having them grow crops in the state land areas where wildlife was on the decline. So far it has been working graet and has been a bonus for many. It's just too bad that they are probably growing gmo crops in this process.

Originally posted by charlyv
The coyotes could be stopped very easily by sectioning the congruent areas off, and systematically policing it once in a while for predators.

By that do you mean systematic species genocide?

By "dignity" do mean means it's only dignifying for them to get killed intead by high powered deer rifles?

Do you realize that without predators to keep populations in check (ANY) populations explode. What happens is there ends up being too many, so the ones that don't get hit by car causing human property damages and injuries will eventually endure various degrees of famine conditions throughtout the year as they run out of 'good' things they'll end up eating things that are even poisonous.

And what's this? We only want to save the cute and fluffy animals. That mean old coyote tho he ought to be sectioned off and "policed" (12 gauge buckshot to the head). Mean animals don't have a right to be here.

reply to post by usmc0311


That can be rectified with a bit of education on organics.

At the very least, they are doing something that will hopefully benefit wildlife in their area. I don't know if deer can tell the difference, GMO or non-GMO.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


This is what really chaps my ass about people who complain about wildlife.

You have no idea how enraged I get when I see forests being chopped down to build McMansions and gated communities.

reply to post by The Sword


I'm in full agreement with you about the problem with us getting rid of their woods and grazing areas. I have deer that come to my back door for breakfast every morning. I give them a few washed untreated (no antisprouting chemicals] potatoes and organic carrots. They are our friends and I don't want to give them foods that hurt them. I don't want them reliant on us either because if something happens I want them to survive. It's not cheap to feed these guys if you are worried about their health.

The deer have moved into town around here even though we have woods. The does are very social animals. I don't like doe permits, there is no sport to shooting them. Same with spikehorns, they aren't hard to shoot, they are just kids. I'd be embarrassed to shoot a spikehorn or doe. I don't approve of baiting deer either, unless you can't walk around for some reason. An old guy sitting at a bait pile is ok, but young people need to learn of the woods. The forest is a very good teacher, as good as any human is. It helps if you want to learn, it's hard to learn anything if you don't want to. The forest is a good doctor also, it can relieve stress. Some people don't belong in the woods though, they have no respect for or fear nature. I do not fear nature but carry a gun sometimes when I'm out there because I do not want to be somethings lunch.

reply to post by The Sword


Deer don't seem to know the difference between GMO food. I learned that once they trust you they will eat whatever you give them except ice cream. That's bad, they get a big gut if you feed them the wrong food. They also start hoofing up your garbage bags. Too much weight gain lowers their chances of surviving in areas with deep snow. They could break a leg when jumping. I try not to feed them corn because it makes them have problems. The corn makes them deficient in niacin and they have problems. Humans aren't the only ones that get Pallagra.

I love deer here's a little song





A bit OT but here in the UK in West Yorkshire we have wild deer running about just behind where I live and I love bumping into them .
Often wondered if I can go out and catch one to eat or maybe it is illegal here?

reply to post by kdog1982


Then use donations and petitions to get federal funding and make it a wildlife reserve. Be neat if it could be pulled off huh? lol

Lets see em foreclose on that lol evict nature....Oh wait we already done that

We have a growing problem here in southwestern PA with yotes as well. If you have pets you better keep an eye on them. Good luck finding a way to get rid of them without hunters. Once they get your cat/dog/other furry creature then you will be begging the hunters to get rid of them.

JT

Deer and coyotes. Coyotes and deer. Two parts of the same chain. Here in the northwest the deer population is higher now, than it was when Lewis and Clark came through almost two centuries ago. That's because the natural predators are gone, or were... Though that is, to an extent, changing with wiser management of the wild life.

Deer and coyotes are amongst the most adaptable critters I've come across. I once watched two deer (a doe and her fawn) cross a road. Nothing strange about that you say? Except for the fact that the doe paused looked both ways, then crossed, her fawn following. That was one wise old doe...

Coyotes are just about the smartest critter around, along with raccoons, mans world. With deer actually not too far behind... They've learned that there are good things to eat in yards, and gardens...both plant and animal. They've all adapted to the changes in their environments. So, too, have many another creature that we don't notice.

Here around where I live cougars and a few bears have learned this, too... Which is unfortunate, because most home owners don't care to have bears and cougars in their yards...and will take extreme measures to remove them. Usually involving application of firearms.

Adapt or die. That sounds to me like what is going on here. Deer have adapted, and then the predators have, too. Soon the deer will adapt again, and on, and on it goes.

wow!! The ignorance spouted here is amazing.

Deer really aren't are friends. They eat our crops and destroy our property.

Deer are not nice and cudly. They will kill you. A buck in rut or a doe in heat are extremely dangerous and should not be approached.

Deer are where they are because that is where they want to be. A road ,fence or hedge will not stop them. An adult deer can clear an 8 foot fence from a standing jump. They are not boxed in.

Deer population as well as other wildlife are exploding. They are actually encroaching on our territory not the other way around. Wildlife poulations are higher now than they were pre revolutionary war era.

They coyote will only keep the deer population in check. They travel to where the food is. If food was not abundant they would not be there. Get rid of the deer and get rid of the coyotes.

Deer and wolf do not interbreed, and may be genetically incapable of doing so.

Hunting is actually good for the poulation. Doe hunting in particular helps to keep the poulation in check and the herd healthy.[not to mention it tastes better]

Urban wildlife management is a growing industry. Due to animal adaptation and poor understanding of animal husbandry skills.

Just a few thoughts from one that lives and understands the way nature works.

reluctantpawn