UNintelligent Design.

If you believe that an intelligent designer created the universe, or that a perfect, omnipotent god created the universe, then this argument is directed at you.
I ask that anyone wishing to participate in the debate does so with an open mind, having respect for the others opinions, and i also ask that you read my entire post before making a response. Let this be a civilized, Intelligent debate..

The idea of intelligent design is unintelligent, implausible though it may seem.. let me elaborate:

I'm going to start with a quote from the book god is not great, by Christopher Hitchens..

The anatomy of the human eye, in fact, shows anything but "intelligence" in its design. It is built upside down and backwards, requiring photons of light to travel through the cornea, lens, aquaeous fluid, blood vessels, ganglion cells, amacrine cells, horizontal cells, and bipolar cells before they reach the light sensitive rods and cones that transduce the light signal into neural impulses—which are then sent to the visual cortex at the back of the brain for processing into meaningful patterns. For optimal vision, why would an intelligent designer have built an eye upside down and backwards ? It is because we evolved from sightless bacteria, now found to share our DNA, that we are so myopic. These are the same ill-designed optics, complete with deliberately "designed" retinal blind spot, through which earlier humans claimed to have "seen" miracles "with their own eyes." The problem in those cases was located elsewhere in the cortex, but we must never forget Charles Darwin's injunction that even the most highly evolved of us will continue to carry "the indelible stamp of their lowly origin."

Look around in the world, do you see any perfection, do you see anything that would serve as evidence for an intelligent creator? I see disease, hunger, poverty, war, and natural disasters. just by observing these things, 3 of which are man made, we can start to see the imperfection in it all. Why would a creator create such horrible things? Why is there the need for natural disasters such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanoes? If in fact a creator did create all these things, then we need to question the morality of the creator.
Now think about the Solar System we live in.. There is only one planet in our entire solar system that can support human life, and that planet, is very climaticly unstable; if it were a little bit closer to the sun, it would be to hot to support life, if it were a little further away from the sun, it would be to cold to support life. What would be the purpose for a creator to create a planet that is constantly on the brink of destruction? Why would a creator create all these other planets that have no potential to support human life?
It seems a bit unintelligent that a creator would create the sun only to later have it burn out, causing us all to die out with it.

Many creationists will point out "How can you get something out of nothing, there has to be a creator".. My response to that is: The same question in return, if your god was the creator of the universe, then he too had to have come from somewhere or something.. Who designed the designer and who designed that designer, etc etc..
What we know right now is that we have something, but we don't know where the something comes from. We only have theory's such as the Big Bang theory that attempt at explaining it. We also know, that we have a great deal of nothing headed straight for us.
If you look into the night sky in certain parts of the world, you can see the Andromeda Galaxy headed straight for us, on a collision course. There is a lot of uncertainty surrounding what exactly will happen when the two galaxies collide, but many speculate is would bring on the destruction of our galaxy, taking us along with it. The predicted time this is to occur is about 3-5 billion years. By the time this occurs, we may already cease to exist due to the planet heating to extreme temperatures that would make it impossible to live under, or the dieing out of our sun.
But, if we some how miraculously make it through all of this, we still have not escaped nothingness, because the universe has an inevitable end (known as heat death). Since the universe had a beginning, it is not eternal, as a result, it will have an end.
Some design right...
Who designed the coming nothingness? It doesn't seem like a design to me much less an intelligent design..
The best explanation (that we have right now) is that the origin of the universe was the big bang, and instead of being caused by a creator, it was random.
You may choose to believe that an intelligent designer created the universe, but i say to you, all your work is still ahead of you.
It seems very improbable that this universe we live in was created by an intelligent designer, on the other hand, it seems more probable however, that the universe was happened out of random chance..

I encourage any deist or theist to debate this with me, try to prove to me that a creator created the universe.
But as i said earlier, all your work is still ahead of you.

reply to post by TheCelestialHuman


Everything you talk about that is wrong with this world, was not caused by God.

It was caused by man.

Additionally, I believe we are supposed to grow up on our own...is it God's fault we can't get along? If I were the human race in its entirety, I would get along and abolish all mention of God's name just to snub Him. If He really thinks we need him, we should prove him wrong...

reply to post by Starchild23


Disease and natural disasters are caused by man? please explain how... theists believe that both of these come from god (not sure how deists stand on this).. if god is real and is the intelligent designer, why would he include these things in his plan? it seems a bit immoral to do so..

Free will allows for imperfection. Thats the whole point and basic theological grade-school level.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Free will does not require a creators permission for us to have it... our free will does not in any way prove god's existence.

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
reply to post by Starchild23

 

Disease and natural disasters are caused by man? please explain how... theists believe that both of these come from god (not sure how deists stand on this).. if god is real and is the intelligent designer, why would he include these things in his plan? it seems a bit immoral to do so..

edit on 1-5-2012 by TheCelestialHuman because: (no reason given)

Through global consciousness. And considering you've been alive less than 50 years, you have no right to say it does or does not exist.

Bazinga.

reply to post by Starchild23


Could you explain to me what global conciousness is and how it causes disease and natural disasters? i have never heard of this before, sounds interesting..

reply to post by TheCelestialHuman


Global consciousness is a higher level of awareness where every thought has an effect upon the world. The more thoughts of the same intention there are, the stronger the effect. You could completely change the world if enough people focused on it.

But that's the problem. No one wants a utopia for society. They want a utopia for themselves. It doesn't help that many people swagger through life believing that the human race was meant to be ruled.

Loki tried that line. Nearly destroyed the people he wanted to rule.

Global consciousness is how our intentions pile up and influence the world, causing chaos as the weather and land is pulled every direction. No wonder it's all chaos. And becoming aware of this consciousness is the next step to becoming godly...the final step being, you get absorbed into the original essence, then recreated as a soul. And you start over again.

Why? Because Source finds the greatest joy in watching its creations grow up and become successful on their own. Much like a loving father, or a doting mother. And just as with parents, they allow you to make mistakes on your own so you see WHY those choices are bad...otherwise, there is no emotion, no realization behind that fact. You know what, but not why. And it's the why that convinces you...the why that deters or encourages you.

And that's what we have to learn ourselves, because we are too obstinate, as a race, to do it any other way.

Do you understand now?

ok lets look this first....

It is built upside down and backwards, requiring photons of light to travel through the cornea, lens, aquaeous fluid, blood vessels, ganglion cells, amacrine cells, horizontal cells, and bipolar cells before they reach the light sensitive rods and cones that transduce the light signal into neural impulses—which are then sent to the visual cortex at the back of the brain for processing into meaningful patterns

Well first off you can see to read, and that impressive in itself consider we as humans have not made camera or tv optics that can adjust and work as nicely as the eye. The eye can focus and adjust light very nicely, it’s really impressive. As far as upside, you see right side up don’t you? To focus the light right side up in cornea would take up more space, this upside down thing is space saver, but you see it right side up. As far as the traveling through blood vessels and other cells, this provides a filter and limits the amount of lighting enter the cornea. This is needed without it your eyes would start to sun burn. As far as eye it really all works nicely and very compact space.

reply to post by Starchild23


Yes i understand now, very interesting... may i ask where you got this idea? did you come up with it yourself or what? is there any further reading i can do on this subject of global conciousness? i am really intrigued by the idea..

Your conclusions stem from a belief that states 1) "this is it" and 2) "there is no Divine Plan and therefore this existence CAN'T be part of something larger". It's the reason why you feel the way you do. But what if God told you that EVERYTHING that is happening now MUST happen to benefit His plans for humanity and the universe in the long run? Would it change your perception at all? It's the part that a thread like this demonstrates... the viewpoint that things are only physical - denying a spiritual reality as well. Not once in your entire post do you hold any thought that there is something more out there, instead demonstrating that the physical is all there is. And because you do value the physical life so much, your thoughts conclude that God must be immoral because you don't have Heaven on Earth. Why not try thinking the other way ....That there is a God Creator and therefore there MUST be a purpose to this brief, yet sometimes brutal existence?

reply to post by TheCelestialHuman


The Ra Material. Google it. And read the whole thing.

Otherwise, a lot of it won't make sense...just like starting in the middle of an Algebra book.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Your conclusions stem from a belief that states 1) "this is it" and 2) "there is no Divine Plan and therefore this existence CAN'T be part of something larger".

there is no evidence that would support a divine plan or divine realm... if it is all part of a divine plan, how do you explain the coming nothingness? why would someone design nothingness?

But what if God told you that EVERYTHING that is happening now MUST happen to benefit His plans for humanity and the universe in the long run?

If this is the case, then once again why is it that 'in the long run' there is a coming nothingness.. also, if the events happening on earth (all the good and bad) MUST happen for his plans to work then either
1. god is not omnipotent, otherwise his plan would have fewer flaws and problems in it.. he should be able to fulfill his plan without all the bad things that happen and without sending people to hell.
or
2. god's plan is very sinister, because it includes disease, disasters, all the bad things that happen in the name of god, and a coming nothingness.. if all these things must happen, then it seems his agenda is a sinister one.. the morality of it all should be questioned.

reply to post by TheCelestialHuman


-sigh le moan- this is the problem with you atheists.

You think that if you believe in any god, it has to be the Christian god. Whatever happened to defining god on your own?

Think for yourself. That's what you have a brain for.

I heard on tv. Someone talking about aetheists comparing them to a " dreaming rock". Why is there even life existence or 3 Dimensional objects when there could instead me nothingness. And I don't think you should blame the nature or natural disasters of life on god any god. Volcanoes have a scientific reason why they go off same for earthquakes. I think Wicca believes in nature and spirituality, if anybody reading this thread has a problem with the major organized religions , you can choose something else or try to find your own path.

It might be a better choice then something something here , or basing unanswered questions or unanswerable questions on science. Do they know yet the birth of stars if that is possible , or why the whole galaxy can sustain paradise through weather on this planet. Why rocks and planets circle the sun in a gravitational force and where they came from. And why the system or foundation of structure in this system is so complete.

Checks and balances everything works so beautifully on this planet. This planet teaming with life if you look at landscapes or all the beauty here how can it not be someone or something's design or paintbrush.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by TheCelestialHuman

 

Everything you talk about that is wrong with this world, was not caused by God.

It was caused by man.

Additionally, I believe we are supposed to grow up on our own...is it God's fault we can't get along? If I were the human race in its entirety, I would get along and abolish all mention of God's name just to snub Him. If He really thinks we need him, we should prove him wrong...

If god is truly intelligent and all powerful as described in the bible and other ancient texts, then it IS his fault for not making his existence apparent to his creation and updating his "word" to modern times, which is the root of all religious conflicts in the world. We live in a digital age with global internet and TV coverage of almost everything. If a creator actually cared about this planet and the human race, then it would be simple to show the billions of people who follow the wrong religions the error of their ways. It's apparent that if god exists, he/she is either a non interfering god (opposite of bible god) or simply has more on his plate than this tiny planet on a small spiral arm of a small galaxy in an incredibly vast and humongous universe.

Your conclusions stem from a belief that states 1) "this is it" and 2) "there is no Divine Plan and therefore this existence CAN'T be part of something larger".

Broadly generalizing somebody's belief system, simply because they reject yours is a dangerous path to tread down. I've never met an atheist that says that. They usually just say there isn't evidence of god.

reply to post by Barcs


ONCE AGAIN!

THE CHRISTIAN GOD IS NOT THE ONLY CONCEIVABLE GOD!!!!

I'm tired of having to type this...Jesus H Christ, people, think for yourselves instead of relying on everyone else to give you a definition.

My god...

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Barcs

 

ONCE AGAIN!

THE CHRISTIAN GOD IS NOT THE ONLY CONCEIVABLE GOD!!!!

I'm tired of having to type this...Jesus H Christ, people, think for yourselves instead of relying on everyone else to give you a definition.

My god...

I don't recall saying that the christian god was the only god. I said IF he is all powerful and intelligent. I'm pretty sure that isn't exclusive to christianity. I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that "type" of god. If god is not all powerful, then then he might not have the capability to contact his creation and / or prove his/her/their existence. This is why non interfering god makes way more sense, if you want to bring god into it at all. But that pretty much removes the deity aspect when you take away that trait.

reply to post by Barcs


Here's how I see it...

On one hand, it's obvious that something intelligent created the world.

On the other hand, it's also pretty obvious that it couldn't be the Christian god, because he's a real ***hole and probably not the one responsible, if he even exists at all.

Which leaves us with two options: one, we don't know much about evolution after all...or two, there is a god. We just have it all wrong.

So there's something we're misunderstanding. The question is, which one is it?

reply to post by Starchild23

On one hand, it's obvious that something intelligent created the world.

do you have any evidence to support the claim that something intelligent is responsible for creation... i don't think a single person on this thread has given any evidence to support their claims... i have tried to show you all several reasons why there is probably not intelligent design.. now show me why you think there is intelligent design.. make an argument for your case..