The Ten Commandments.

Three different versions of the Ten Commandments are listed in the bible.
Exodus 20, Exodus 34:15, and Deuteronomy 5. Each version is slightly different.

Commandments one and two have nothing to do with ethics and instead are injunctions.

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Many Christians leave out the forbidding of graven images and instead say "you shall not make any idols". where would christian art be without all the painting and other forms of art that include god, jesus, the last supper, etc.. Notice that the punishment for disobeying the 2nd commandment is that the 3rd and 4th generations will be penalized for the sins of their parents. It seems to me a bit immoral that the children would have to pay for the sins of their parents.
Moving on to the next commandment:

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The problem here is no one has ever figured out how to obey this commandment and no one knows what constitutes as taking the lord's name in vain. is it taking the lord's name in vein to commit immoral acts in the name of god (suicide bombing, murder, genocide) or what about saying things like God knows, or oh my god?
It would have been wise on god's part to elaborate what exactly is taking his name in vein when giving these commandments.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The problem with christians in this case, or at least those who follow the 10 commandments, and especially those who want them in schools and courthouses and public places, is that they would end up taking Saturday off and not Sunday. The reason for this is because these commandments are intended for the establishment of the jewish state, and the jewish sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday..

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

The interesting thing here is that unlike the other commandments so far, this one comes with an inducement. Instead of saying honour thy father and mother (because it is morally right to do so), he suggests do it so you may in return receive a legacy from your parents.

13Thou shalt not kill.

After the delivery of the commandments, Moses orders the people to draw their swords and Kill their friends and family for their immoral acts that they have committed.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

My only question here is why is this common offense included with theft, murder, and purgery?

15Thou shalt not steal.

i think we can all agree that it is not okay to steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

This is indeed an immoral act and i cannot see how any human being could bring themselves to false testify against someone..

The last commandment, in my opinion is the most interesting of all.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

There are 3 obvious problems with this commandment.
1. It considers the female to be equivalent to the ox and ass. It suggests that the female is property of the man. which i think we can all agree today that females are equal to males and should be treated equally in all parts of the world.
2. It is the only commandment that condemns you of thought, or that can convict you of thought crime. with this commandment not only are you forbidden to take action, but you are forbidden to think of coveting your neighbors property.
3. it suppresses the desire that is in us all, that must have been put there by god anyways.

I would also like to point out that almost directly after the events at Mount Sinai god commands moses and the people to drive out the Hittites, Amorites, and Canaanites. He commands them to destroy their graven images and idols, to kill the men and boys, and to take the women for themselves. We can assume by taking the women for themselves, that they have immoral intentions in doing so. So directly after giving a moral code to the people he commands them to commit several immoral acts which would include rape, murder, and slavery.

On another note, it is also interesting that god left out many important immoral acts that you would think an omnipotent god would include. Some that come to mind are Forbidding slavery, child abuse, rape, and genocide.. instead of condemning these actions, he encourages them.. This appears to be very immoral.

We are either looking at the work of a god who is jealous, short of temper, and inconsistent; or the people who made god were jealous, short tempered, and inconsistent. These traits do not seem like that of any god. Therefore, i think it is easy enough to say that these commandments did not come from god, and instead they came from man..

Many people will argue that this cannot be so, because how could we know right from wrong without supernatural law and supervision? Where does morality come from if not from god?

My argument is as follows:
1. There is not a single moral action that can be taken by a theist that can not be taken by an atheist.
2. There are several immoral actions that can be taken by theists that usually are not taken by atheist.
(Suicide bombing, genocide, genital mutilation, sacrifice).

this is just one argument of many that i could make to prove that god is not necessary for morality.

I fail to see why people choose to believe in this supreme dictator that can convict them of thought crime.
Based on the inconsistencies and the questionable commandments in the bible (commandments to carry out genocide, rape, and slavery), it is fairly easy to see that these commandments, and perhaps even their god as well, is man made. At the very least, Christians, i ask that you question the morality of your god.
Bible reference

reply to post by TheCelestialHuman


the ten commandments are subject to the two Jesus gave...

Love God, and love thy neighbour as yourself...

Do yourself a favor to avoid confusion... skip the OT and start with Matthew...

reply to post by Akragon


Akragon already got to the point I was going to make, but here's some scriptural reference for his view:

Matthew 22:34-40 " But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Amen

"God" is not God's name. "For I am the LORD thy GOD" is like saying "For I am the King thy Hero" or something to that effect. He clearly says do not worship other gods. That means there were other gods, apparently. We know that a Lord is a high ranking title. God's name is possibly Yahweh, though that means " I am who I am". Therefor, if you say God Damn It, you are not taking the Lord's name in vain. Perhaps we say God because we like to shorten names, like Bob or Dan or Mike?

www.yhwh.com/GINGN/gingn.htm

reply to post by jaxnmarko


What word is a higher title then God?

Dare ye think we can know the name of the true God?

Do you think God needs a name?

Do you recall Jesus ever saying his name?

He called him Father... as i do... or God...

You keep your yhwh... I'll have no part in the OT God and his pathetic humanistic emotions...

This guy broked it down pretty neatly - George Carlin, master of comedy



Warning, explicit lyrics

Originally posted by stainlesssteelrat
This guy broked it down pretty neatly

- George Carlin, master of comedy

Warning, explicit lyrics

Your link didn't work for me. It said that it was illegal in my country, USA? Bad URL?

Anyway, I changed the embed code, in the quoted video, and it works for me now. It's just to good, funny and appropriated for this thread not to share it!

OP, thanks for this thread. I was thinking of doing something similar, but really wasn't up for the fight with the religious folk. You echo my thoughts exactly!

The only thing I have to add is that god also ordered the Israelites to steal from their conquests. Built in hypocrisy!

S&F!

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by TheCelestialHuman

 

the ten commandments are subject to the two Jesus gave...

Love God, and love thy neighbour as yourself...

Do yourself a favor to avoid confusion... skip the OT and start with Matthew...

So you're saying that the 10 Commandments are null and void? It is okay, in your gods eyes, that I pursue what was said not to? Just because they're in the OT?

reply to post by Akragon


Unfortunately the OT laws still apply with the new laws. No where does it say that the old laws will be done away with, just the new would added to the old. Not sure why Christians refuse to see that small detail. I guess it's just their way of refusing to accept immoral laws.

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by Akragon

 

Unfortunately the OT laws still apply with the new laws. No where does it say that the old laws will be done away with, just the new would added to the old. Not sure why Christians refuse to see that small detail. I guess it's just their way of refusing to accept immoral laws.

I think what Jesus meant was that you can sum up morality in 2 commandments. Love god, and love you neighbor as you love yourself. If you are aligned with those 2, you will automatically keep the rest of the commandments. Of course, he had to teach the people the doctrine of love.

Jesus ignored a lot of the "Law."

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by Akragon

 

Unfortunately the OT laws still apply with the new laws. No where does it say that the old laws will be done away with, just the new would added to the old. Not sure why Christians refuse to see that small detail. I guess it's just their way of refusing to accept immoral laws.

OT laws were never laws to begin with... they are mans laws, aside from the 10 commandments of course...

And btw im not christian, so i don't need to adhear to christian dogmatic views...

Love is the law... thats all that ever was...

Originally posted by QUANTUMGR4V17Y

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by TheCelestialHuman

 

the ten commandments are subject to the two Jesus gave...

Love God, and love thy neighbour as yourself...

Do yourself a favor to avoid confusion... skip the OT and start with Matthew...

So you're saying that the 10 Commandments are null and void? It is okay, in your gods eyes, that I pursue what was said not to? Just because they're in the OT?

No im saying the ten are subject to the two... how did you miss that?

You are free to do as you will... of course...

It is my belief and opinion that the ten commandments are a subtle part of a vast biblical conspiracy to further separate man from God. There is much confusion in the Bible. For one thing, any being that comes down out of the sky is not the one God, but actually an angel (literally translated as messenger/intermediary) instead. But an angel is Godlike, so the confusion is understandable. We should all already know that you can't trust third-party knowledge to be 100% accurate anyway, but that's besides the point.

God did not want man to know the difference between good and evil. Before the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was consumed, everything that happened was just to be trusted and respected as a creation of God. After the "fruit" was "consumed", there was a great deal of effort in assisting mankind in determining what was good and what was evil- hence the ten commandments. But remember, God never wanted us to know the difference. Only Satan did.

There really is an unGodly thing about knowing the difference between good and evil. The unGodly thing is that everything, including evil, that exists is a creation of God. So it is unwise to judge an action on account of its moral value, but it is wise to respect all for all is a creation of the one creator. I seriously doubt that God (not wanting us to know the difference in the first place) would further clarify what evil is.

Its not about good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Its about people who hate and detest that of the creation willingly separate themself from creation and therefore the creator and those that unconditionally love and accept all of creation and therefore God willingly go to where God is.

The wild world is more spiritually in tune than the civilized world. But of course there will be those who think they are superior to other beings. But to them, I remind them that the belief in one's superiority is just another way Satan has you separating yourself from God.

God is not one to restrict, God is one to freely express itself through the creation. All you have to do is accept what is and be open to what is to come. If something bad happens to you, don't take it personally, the creator has a point to all of this. Don't judge God's creation, and you just might see the point.

reply to post by smithjustinb

God did not want man to know the difference between good and evil. Before the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was consumed, everything that happened was just to be trusted and respected as a creation of God. After the "fruit" was "consumed", there was a great deal of effort in assisting mankind in determining what was good and what was evil- hence the ten commandments. But remember, God never wanted us to know the difference. Only Satan did.

what i get from the story of 'the fall of man', is that god has us enslaved for the purpose of worshiping him and he did not want us to have knowledge or know right from wrong, so the devil(the supposed evil one), tells us to eat from a tree so that we will know right from wrong and we will be smart.. so on what side you have a selfish, jealous, tyrannical dictator who insist that he is worshiped, and on the other side you have someone framed for being evil, who really set humanity free being god's slaves.. that's basically the story from a non christian perspective.. i don't see how you make the comparison that god is good and satan is evil, if god did not give you knowledge but the devil did.. as martin luther said, "reason is the devil's whore". i guess that about sums up a Christian's ignorance..
you should deny ignorance and realize that these stories are false and were made up, by man..
which seems more likely:
god created many men?
or
many men created god?

i also have a challenge for you.. ( or for anyone that argues that we would not know right from wrong without god).

1. Name for me one moral action that a Christian can do that an atheist can not.
2. Name for me one immoral action that is almost always done by Christians but not done by atheist.
you will probably find that you have a hard time thinking of answer to the first one, but you can probably think of several answers to the second one, if not, i have a few for you.

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

God did not want man to know the difference between good and evil. Before the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was consumed, everything that happened was just to be trusted and respected as a creation of God. After the "fruit" was "consumed", there was a great deal of effort in assisting mankind in determining what was good and what was evil- hence the ten commandments. But remember, God never wanted us to know the difference. Only Satan did.

what i get from the story of 'the fall of man', is that god has us enslaved for the purpose of worshiping him and he did not want us to have knowledge or know right from wrong, so the devil(the supposed evil one), tells us to eat from a tree so that we will know right from wrong and we will be smart..

Here's a hint. You can have knowledge without having knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of good and evil isn't true objective knowledge. Good and evil are relative/subjective beliefs and aren't real. Satan is nothing more than an effective liar. Do you see how he misled us there? We had knowledge before we "ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil". Non-dualistic existential objective knowledge that was beyond relative falsehoods.

God is the one observer. God is the one seeing what each of us see. God is the one who our existences matter to. The closer you get to God, the less relativity exists. God IS the truth. Satan IS the opposer of truth. Relativity opposes truth. Compassion (putting yourself in other's shoes- seeing from other perspectives) is the way out.

For what its worth, I'm not a Christian either.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by TheCelestialHuman

 

the ten commandments are subject to the two Jesus gave...

Love God, and love thy neighbour as yourself...

Do yourself a favor to avoid confusion... skip the OT and start with Matthew...

I have to agree. Seen so many judaisers here lately. Yeshua became our law, his commamdments are the ones we have to keep.

Good call .

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

i also have a challenge for you.. ( or for anyone that argues that we would not know right from wrong without god).

We would not know right from wrong without Satan. We would not know without God.

1. Name for me one moral action that a Christian can do that an atheist can not.
2. Name for me one immoral action that is almost always done by Christians but not done by atheist.
you will probably find that you have a hard time thinking of answer to the first one, but you can probably think of several answers to the second one, if not, i have a few for you.

edit on 3-5-2012 by TheCelestialHuman because: (no reason given)

Like I said, I'm not a Christian. I'm not an atheist either though. I believe in a creator. Honestly, I think it is impossible to not believe in a creator. If anything, I don't believe in atheists, lol. Hear me out. Can atheists and theists both not agree that there are circumstances that we don't all fully understand that led to the emergence of life on Earth? If you believe that there are, then you believe in God. Essentially, God is time. God is that which unfolds the progression of the universe. God sounds like time to me as well as everything that can be said to be growing. So if you believe in time, you believe in God.

I think the term "atheist" would be more accurately defined as: Rebel of Christian beliefs. Like i said, I think its impossible to not believe in God. If you believe in the universe then you believe in God because God is the universe. Honestly, I think atheists understand God better than Christians, they just haven't realized that what they understand so well is God. In any case, neither atheists nor Christians have a full conceptualization of God.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Like I said, I'm not a Christian. I'm not an atheist either though. I believe in a creator. Honestly, I think it is impossible to not believe in a creator. If anything, I don't believe in atheists, lol. Hear me out. Can atheists and theists both not agree that there are circumstances that we don't all fully understand that led to the emergence of life on Earth? If you believe that there are, then you believe in God. Essentially, God is time. God is that which unfolds the progression of the universe. God sounds like time to me as well as everything that can be said to be growing. So if you believe in time, you believe in God. I think the term "atheist" would be more accurately defined as: Rebel of Christian beliefs. Like i said, I think its impossible to not believe in God. If you believe in the universe then you believe in God because God is the universe. Honestly, I think atheists understand God better than Christians, they just haven't realized that what they understand so well is God. In any case, neither atheists nor Christians have a full conceptualization of God.

Why were you quoting bible stories earlier if your are not a Christian? you say it is impossible to not believe in a creator.. it's not impossible, because i don't believe in a creator. I agree with you that there are several things we do not fully understand yet that led to life on Earth, but at the same time, i know that it does not require a god or creator for us to be here on earth. There are better explanations.. The term "atheist" describes someone who does not believe in a god. the athiest proposition is as follows:
it may not be said that there is no god, it may be said that there is no reason to think there is a god. i am more of an anti-theist myself, rather than an atheist.. i reject all forms of theism. i do not completely reject the idea of a god existing. i realize a god could very well exist, but it is not neccessary for everything to work. there is no doubt in my mind though, that the god of the bible is nonexistent.
EDIT:
you said we would not know right from wrong without satan, and we would not know without god.
explain to me why this is.. would the idea of knowledge not exist without the idea of god?
back to the challenge:
since you are not a christian, but you seem to believe in god and satan, name for me one moral action that a believer (like yourself) can do, that a nonbeliever can not do..
then, i would like for you to name me an immoral action that is almost always done by believers but not done by nonbelievers..

Originally posted by TheCelestialHuman
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Like I said, I'm not a Christian. I'm not an atheist either though. I believe in a creator. Honestly, I think it is impossible to not believe in a creator. If anything, I don't believe in atheists, lol. Hear me out. Can atheists and theists both not agree that there are circumstances that we don't all fully understand that led to the emergence of life on Earth? If you believe that there are, then you believe in God. Essentially, God is time. God is that which unfolds the progression of the universe. God sounds like time to me as well as everything that can be said to be growing. So if you believe in time, you believe in God. I think the term "atheist" would be more accurately defined as: Rebel of Christian beliefs. Like i said, I think its impossible to not believe in God. If you believe in the universe then you believe in God because God is the universe. Honestly, I think atheists understand God better than Christians, they just haven't realized that what they understand so well is God. In any case, neither atheists nor Christians have a full conceptualization of God.

Why were you quoting bible stories earlier if your are not a Christian?

You don't have to be a Christian to see and enjoy the wisdom of the Bible.

you say it is impossible to not believe in a creator.. it's not impossible, because i don't believe in a creator. I agree with you that there are several things we do not fully understand yet that led to life on Earth, but at the same time, i know that it does not require a god or creator for us to be here on earth. There are better explanations.. The term "atheist" describes someone who does not believe in a god. the athiest proposition is as follows:
it may not be said that there is no god, it may be said that there is no reason to think there is a god. i am more of an anti-theist myself, rather than an atheist.. i reject all forms of theism. i do not completely reject the idea of a god existing. i realize a god could very well exist, but it is not neccessary for everything to work. there is no doubt in my mind though, that the god of the bible is nonexistent.

Like I said, if you believe in the universe, you believe in God because the universe is God. So Mr. Atheist... Do you believe in the universe?

you said we would not know right from wrong without satan, and we would not know without god.
explain to me why this is.. would the idea of knowledge not exist without the idea of god?

God isn't just an idea. God is the creator- the circumstances that led to the emergence and propogation of diverse life forms. I believe before there was an intelligent life form, there had to be something else that was intelligent because I don't believe that intelligence can come from something non-intelligent. I mean I literally try to trace evolution all the way back to the first organism that emerged and say to myself, "alright, now what was before this?" And there's no life form. But then an orgnaism emerged that was already equipped with the ability to reproduce; to make copies of itself???? That's a big jump. The only logical conclusion I could come to, at that point, was that there had to be something within the structure of the universe itself that had a need for this kind of activity and something that was conducive to this kind of thing emerging. I mean, its like the first life form emerged already equipped with the knowledge that it was going to want or need to make copies of itself. This pre-emergent knowledge implies that there was a pre-emergent intelligence that informed the emerging being (by creating it that way) that it was going to need to reproduce. I don't think it was anything supernatural, but I do think that the entire universe is alive- even that which we consider to be "inanimate", and that this aliveness served as a template for the emergence of a diverse variety of creative, geometric life forms.

So if you believe in the universe, you believe in God, or at least, God as I define God.