Romans 11 and the current so-called Jewish State of Israel

reply to post by cloudyday

(Of course I'm assuming that the Crusades was driven mostly by practical issues such as trade routes, greed, etc. as opposed to religion.)

Your mistake is thinking somehow religion does not belong in that list. It is integral to the whole. Eastern Orthodoxy was at least as much a target as Islam. You have to keep in mind that the Crusades was a Western, and Catholic project.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by cloudyday

 

(Of course I'm assuming that the Crusades was driven mostly by practical issues such as trade routes, greed, etc. as opposed to religion.)

Your mistake is thinking somehow religion does not belong in that list. It is integral to the whole. Eastern Orthodoxy was at least as much a target as Islam. You have to keep in mind that the Crusades was a Western, and Catholic project.

Oops, I deleted my post because I couldn't think of any practical national interest for the U.S. to be supporting Israel. I wish the U.S. had a national interest for the billions we give Israel every year plus the diplomatic price we pay, but I think Truman and others felt sorry for the Zionists after the Holocaust. Now Israel is a nuclear-armed tar baby.

reply to post by cloudyday

. . . I couldn't think of any practical national interest for the U.S. . . .

There isn't.
There is personal interest for the people who basically own Israel, which would be the Rothschilds. They would have a political alliance with the Vatican, to get rid of the Orthodox Christians through the agency of the Israeli thugs. They really want to eliminate the Christians from Syria, which is now the heart of Eastern Christianity since Iraq was destroyed by the agency of the US, puppets to the Crypto-Anglo Empire.
This is standard operating procedure for the Catholics, better to have no Christians than to have any non-Catholic Christians.

reply to post by jmdewey60

As for this "redeemed" concept:
Were they "redeemed" in 1949 by having a Jewish state proclaimed?

I'm glad you caught that, about slipping "redemption" into the conversation.

"Saved" as used by Paul is clearly a statement about human people, especially Diaspora Jews, which would presumably be the people he planned to meet in Rome. There is no hint in Paul whatsoever that he taught "Aliyah" ( immigration to land of Israel), encouraged Aliyah, condoned Aliyah, or foresaw Aliyah. That's not what Romans 11 is about. If Paul favored Aliyah, then surely he would have mentioned it in a letter to Rome, with a large Diaspora population.

What could be the possible source for slipping the word redemption in?

Zionism Is About Redemption
First Publish: 3/27/2011 .

Rabbi Chanan Porat told attendees at the Religious Zionist Education Institution's (RZEI) Leadership Conference on Sunday that "Zionism is about redemption."

Rabbi Chanan Porat, considered one of the foremost leaders of the Gush Emunim movment, attended the leadership conference despite his battle with serious illness. Received with heart-warming applause, Rabbi Porat opened the conference at International Convention Center in Jerusalem where his words generated great excitement and brought many to tears when he spoke.

In his address, Rabbi Porat began with an explanation of how far settlers have come since the Six Day War, describing them as a huge force nothing can uproot. "They say that all beginnings are difficult, but it's always been easy for us. We felt," says Porat, "Our hearts were full. Our Zionism continues in the practical way Zionism's fathers, but adds a layer of Zionist faith - it revealed 'a new light."

"Religious Zionism is not just talking about a land of refuge from the nations," Rabbi Porat continued. "It believes Zionism is about redemption. Rabbi Zvi Yehuda [Kook] emphasized that we were coming home and we have forged the path. "

What can we say then? Paul cared about people. Zionism cares about depopulating and repopulating land. Evidently, Christian Zionists are Zionists first, and Christian second or third or maybe fourth, who knows how far down the list of priorities Christianity actually fits. Since they are dishonest about their own beliefs, they think nothing of distorting and misrepresenting Paul's beliefs.

Gush Emunim Underground
A string of arrests followed(1984) with police bringing in a number of settlement and political leaders, including future Knesset member Eliezer Waldman and Rabbi Moshe Levinger. Twenty-five of the arrested Gush Emunim members were tried on a host of charges relating to the plot to destroy the Dome of the Rock, the 1983 attack on the Islamic College, the attempted assassination of West Bank mayors, the aborted bus attacks and a few other incidents.[6] Three of the men, Menachem Livni, Shaul Nir and Uzi Sharbav, were sentenced to life in prison for their roles in the Islamic College attack.

Their sentences were controversially commuted three times by then President Chaim Herzog and they were released after serving less than seven years. On their 1990 release the three were hailed as "heroes" by leaders of the Gush Emunim movement

That would be redemption of the land or the nation, I was specifically talking about redemption to Christ. The same redemption Christ brings to all us Gentiles.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Alright. Then that answers my question.

You are promoting a double (at least) redemption.

Land Redeemed by being appropriated
Nation Redeemed by declaration of statehood
Nation Redeemed by accepting Jesus
Personal Redemption as an individual of said nation

reply to post by pthena


There is a detail you're missing. And the detail is this. Why is there Christianity? What happened to the Jews? Why is "God's chosen people" having to deal with Inquisitions and pogroms and Holocausts? And it appears there is a simple answer to all of this. And the problem is this.

Somebody triggered the curse of Malachi.

And working out all the details here's the curse in a nutshell. It's a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. Triggered according to Jesus Christ when John the Baptist was killed. John the Baptist being the "Elijah the Prophet" of Malachi 4.


Now why does this apply to your question.

What would Paul's attitude be with regards to having his letter used as support for ethnic cleansing of Palestine for the sake of people choosing to identify as Jewish and claiming to be Israel? Especially, what would he think of former Christians who have abandoned Christianity to become Jews, who then move to Palestine, in order to displace Christian Palestinians who descended from 1st Century Judean converts to Christianity?

Because the majority of Jews of today's Israel are Ashkenazi Jews. They are KAZARS. Along with a number of converts from around the world.

Look at this.
Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Whats happening here is that the curse is coming to an end. God has given the land of Israel to another people that calls themselves "Jews" and practice the religion. But don't have a direct genetic connection to the "Jews" of the first century AD. Those people are the Palestinians.

God is driving out the "blood" Jews. They're cursed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Alright. Then that answers my question.

You are promoting a double (at least) redemption.

Land Redeemed by being appropriated
Nation Redeemed by declaration of statehood
Nation Redeemed by accepting Jesus
Personal Redemption as an individual of said nation

Well, isn't the point of this discussing whether or not Jews will come to Christ in the future or not (redemption to Christ)? Everyone who has studied history knows the land itself was redeemed beginning in 1948. When it was in possession of the Gentiles it went to absolute waste, barely any trees would even grow there. It's flourishing now like the Bible said it would. That aspect should go without mentioning.

reply to post by ntech

Hey Ntech,

I remember you bringing up the Malachi curse before.

God has given the land of Israel to another people that calls themselves "Jews" and practice the religion.

So you're saying the Palestinians are cursed because they are the actual 1st century Jews that Jesus spoke to. And the "new Jews" are given the land because they practice the religion?

But the original Zionists were predominantly Atheists. Kook's self appointed mission was trying to get the Jewish terrorists to become religious so that they would become religious Jewish terrorists. He didn't have much success. The religious Zionist zealots have only recently started to be the forefront of seizing more land through the Settlement movement.

Your theory might actually have some connection to the Jewish concept of "the wicked hands gain the land for the righteous" then I suppose the righteous say thank you and the wicked who did all the work just conveniently drop dead. I can't remember the name of that teaching. There is an actual Hebrew name for it. If I run across it again I'll be sure to write it down though.

reply to post by ntech

I'm sorry Ntech,

I didn't mean to jump on you. I'm rather frustrated with Christians who swallow things handed to them without wondering what it is they're being handed or who is doing the handing out.

There is a detail you're missing. And the detail is this. Why is there Christianity?

I was actually missing this question. In trying to determine Paul's idea of "redemption" about whether it deals with people or land, I found that the people redeemed are all those who are adopted by the Christian God as sons,

Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance;

People are the object of redemption from the curse of the Law, which would include the Leviticus curse you mention.

Galatians 3: 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
. . .
26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.

All people then, by faith in Christ, become sons of God and heirs of the promise to Abraham, whether Jews, Greeks, what have you. No distinction.

So the question remains: What did Paul think of "land redemption"? Is it one area of the Earth? No. It's the whole creation.

Romans 8:19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope.

Redemption of people means all believers. No distinction
Redemption of land means the whole Earth

This is according to Paul. Other concepts of redemption must come from somewhere else. Where? From the same source that is the source of the curse. The Law.

What happens to people who try to get their doctrine and practice from the Law?

Galatians 5:4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.

Who would want to alienate Christians from Christ?

Galatians 2:4 This was because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who stole in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage;

Chasing after the desires of Zionist Jews makes one an enemy of Paul's. Paul in no way was a Zionist.

Galatians 4:16 So then, have I become your enemy by telling you the truth? 17 They zealously seek you in no good way. No, they desire to alienate you, that you may seek them.

reply to post by pthena


For your first reply. Yes. The Palestinians and Arabs and even the Persians (Iran) are all subject to the curse because they have Jew/Israelite blood in them. Also look at the olive tree parable again in light of this curse.
What is Paul telling us here? The olive tree is the tree of life. The Jews were cut off because of their disbelief and the curse. While Christians are being grafted in. A 2nd meaning to the Matthew 21-43 verse. Essentially Christians are adopted Israelites.

Also with the conversion of all those former Christians to Islam they are inadvertently losing their protection to the curse as well. Once an Israelite always an Israelite.

And to answer the other question. God will even use the wicked as tools to get to his objectives. It took a Hitler to create the conditions that led to a nation of Israel. Is it so hard to believe the current Israelis are working towards God's objectives? It would take Jews and a Jewish nation to create a temple that the abomination of desolation could stand in.

So what is God's objective? I would say it is to bring about the end of days. And the day of Jezreel that follows.

reply to post by ntech

Before I go into a big rant. Re-read Leviticus 26. Feel it in your soul, your heart, and your rational mind. Then answer this question: What is your honest opinion of the thing responsible for that "blessing and curse."

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by ntech

Before I go into a big rant. Re-read Leviticus 26. Feel it in your soul, your heart, and your rational mind. Then answer this question: What is your honest opinion of the thing responsible for that "blessing and curse."

Why do you think the northern kingdom was wiped out and taken captive to Babylon?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You need to brush up on your Israel history.
The "Northern Kingdom", meaning the kingdom of Israel that broke off from Judah, were dispersed by the Assyrians.
The elite class of Judeans got sent to Babylon.
destruction of northern kingdom

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Why do you think the northern kingdom was wiped out and taken captive to Babylon?

The Assyrian Empire was militarily stronger than Israel. The Northern kingdom Israel rebelled (quit paying tribute) The Assyrians whipped them. The Assyrians used a tactic of taking captive the likely politically strongest elements of their society, thus breaking the political cohesion necessary to fuel future rebellions. Some of the captives may have ended up in Babylon, though I doubt it. The deportees seem to have ended up well north of Babylon.

Are you volunteering to give your ideas about Leviticus? Hint: focus on the blessing part first. Think of what is being promised.

reply to post by pthena

Re-read Leviticus 26.

I spent an hour this morning searching for essays on that,
and ended up with about 15 PDF files that I downloaded
and then transferred to my Kindle to look at.
If I find any useful, I'll post a link, later.
This one here looks promising to me.
www.tms.edu...
THE ESCHATOLOGICAL SIGNIFICANCE
OF LEVITICUS 26
Wi l li am D. B a r r i ck
Prof e s sor of Old Te s t ament

reply to post by pthena

Think of what is being promised.

Eating bread until you are satisfied, where built into that is apparently all the wine you can drink.
The curse is having your bread meted out by weight and never being satisfied.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I was hoping that some one would hit the obvious answer about "the thing responsible" for the writing of the Leviticus 26. Simple answer: Superstition.

The paper you linked to is from The Masters Seminary Journal. I went to the Masters Seminary home page and clicked the Statement of Faith

Members of the board of directors, administrators, and faculty members of The Master's Seminary recognize that any doctrinal statement is but a fallible human attempt to summarize and systematize the riches of an infallible divine revelation. But this in no way detracts from the importance of such a statement. The affirmations which follow carefully specify our teaching position with regard to the major biblical doctrines, and thus provide a framework for curriculum and instruction at the seminary. They also provide an anchor to protect the institution against theological drift. For this reason, members of the board of directors, administration, and faculty members are annually required to sign a statement affirming agreement with this Statement of Faith.

We teach that the Bible is God's written revelation to man, and thus the sixty-six books of the Bible given to us by the Holy Spirit constitute the plenary (inspired equally in all parts) Word of God (1 Corinthians 2:7-14; 2 Peter 1:20-21).

We teach that the Word of God is an objective, propositional revelation (1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 2:13), verbally inspired in every word (2 Timothy 3:16), absolutely inerrant in the original documents, infallible, and God breathed. We teach the literal, grammatical historical interpretation of Scripture which affirms the belief that the opening chapters of Genesis present creation in six literal days (Genesis 1:31; Exodus 31

It was obvious to Paul that slavishly following superstitious "Holy Torah" would always lead to death. That's why he was teaching "But Now a Righteousness from God Apart from Torah has Been Revealed" which would serve as a pretty good title for his letter to Romans, if it were actually being presented as a play; that would be written on the theater marquee

The focus on the blessing part, was to illustrate that if it were possible that the adherence to a ritualized belief could bring such blessings to a tribe from some god, then surely we would have seen many historical accounts of such a thing.

reply to post by pthena

. . . Superstition . . .

What jumped out at me, reading the text under examination, is the line, "I will walk among you."
If you read the Genesis story of the original Israel, otherwise known as Jacob, his god was someone connected to a particular spot which he called Bethel. Apparently Jacob was the one who recognized this god of this spot, while everyone else were wrongly worshiping gods of spots somewhere else, and so were irrelevant to whoever was themselves living in that particular spot.