Explain to me how Homosexuals are "born that way".

well it makes sense heterocentric persons make a point that they do not have a parade to celebrate their sexuality.

whilst homosexuals have their "pride" parades.

perhaps the notiion is gays historically are ridiculed, opressed into hiding (in the "closet") their rare sexuality (1 in ten, or some claim, even less? while statistics show if honest/anonymous, even more), and even bullied, beat to death etc so what they're celebrating is relative liberation.

straight pride parade would be celebrating... fitting into mainstream society and heterocentric religious views? *yawn*

reply to post by BiggerPicture


You said it better than I could!

I don't have a problem with gay parades although I have never taken part or even been to one, but I do understand why gay people do have them!

And if it gets the message through to just one person that yes we are different but we are the same, and not harming anyone, it's done what it was meant to do!

personally i do have a problem with the sexualization of one's orientation. sure it is has a sexual basis but to celebrate the sexuality instead of the orientation is going off on the wrong tangent - a possibly lewd one.

thats what bothers me about gay pride parades - based on what i have seen on television though i wouldnt be caught dead at one because of the lewds that crash it - ie the SF one is known for public displays of fellatio between strangers - now obviously that is not something specific to homosexuality, but to lewdness and promiscuity and thats what the majority of observers at these "pride" parades come away with -a really bitter taste of what homosexuals are about, ie fully naked bikers, skaters, float dancers/performers

Originally posted by dayve


If your having parades to have the same rights so you can live as non gays, it makes no sense..... make your own rules/laws up and keep them within that community... You guys can take emo and skinny jeans back, they always where and always will be gay..

you realize you werent "born that way"?

it was your parents choice to raise you to be ignorant , and it was also your choice to continue a life of ignorance.

reply to post by BiggerPicture


Right. The parades should be about establishing yourselves amongst your neighbors and becoming part of the greater neighborhood type deal instead of freaking your neighbors out. There was a nearby parade that I didn't attend in SC and from what I gather it was mostly a t-shirts and jeans type affair with one drag queen in a purple prom dress and tiara.

reply to post by AceWombat04


Hey man, don't be to upset - I got ignored as well.

The argument is pointless and silly. And the reason is simple - Christians (other bigots) just don't want to know the truth if it was biting them in the face. I told a bit about myself, how I tried to 'Pray Away the Gay' - it doesn't matter. Instead of actually going to the source and asking a GAY person about their lives, childhood, etc they walk right past us because the answers scare them.

All of this because of a 3000 year old book - a book that lists over a 150 abominations, including homosexuality. It's unreal.

reply to post by Lionhearte


I would imagine that as homosexuality occurs across nature and in many species, it can't exclusively be societal issues. There must be some form of genetic predisposition - based on chemical / hormone levels etc.

On that basis, I think its reasonable to deduce that homosexuality is not a choice - I think the only choice relates to an individual's choice of whether to embrace it or deny it (dependent on the way they feel they may be treated / mistreated for their decision).

The gay pride parade is not a reason to hate gay people.

Not all gay people are in it, or for that matter, support it.

That's like hating all men for having red mustaches.

As a Christan pastor of a church this area of discussion is near and dear to my heart. I would advise those who look at the Bible as a pure, unadulterated, instruction manual, to really look again. Really, it is culture's reflections on who God is according to their life experiences. One can still see the Bible as the Word of God while still recognizing that it contains contradictions, historical mistakes, and some abhorrent ethical issues. I find God in the struggle with the text. I find God in questioning of God and in philosophical and logical reflection. I find God in the intersection of human experience, mistakes, scientific truth, the Bible, and my understanding of virtue. On that note let us examine homosexuality with truth rather than saying, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" (One of the most ridiculous and damaging ideas that has ever faced Christianity)

I will start off with an anecdotal story. I have a close friend who I've known for nearly all my life. From the age of 5 to 7 he was sexually molested by his grandfather continuously. He has been gay from the moment he can first remember feeling any attraction toward another human being. We've discussed this issue at depth, and the conclusion that we come to through various study is that an imprinting of sexual behavior on someone can vastly affect the outcome of the child. Just like my friend will never fully overcome the struggles associated with his childhood experience, the grandfather has imprinted the sexual encounters on him for life. The grandfather's message through his words and actions to my friend was, "This is the way the world is supposed to be, this is what is right, this is good, this is who human beings are."

Now, it is a possibility that my friend also had biological tendencies and other issues were instrumental in his sexual preference, but one can't ignore childhood experience and imprinting as a factor. Let's then not forget the fact that 1 out of 3 girls and 1 out of 5 boys are molested in their youth. Now, don't mistake the above as a defense against the biological source of homosexuality. The argument that is being presented is simply one that points to the fact that his sexuality isn't something my friend could control and the fact that he can't control it today.

Logic would dictate that it is biological or early experience related as well.
-If homosexuality is a choice when does that choice occur in the life of the individual? If homosexuality is a choice is the choice made before the person even realizes they are making a choice? How does someone turn off attraction to one sex in order to choose? How, as sexual attraction is biological, would someone force their body into compliance? Why would someone choose to be gay? If you tried to be attracted to someone of the same sex do you think you could successfully accomplish the task? If you tried to be attracted to someone of the same sex and you somehow succeeded do you think you would still be attracted to the opposite sex?

-The burden of proof would actually lie on the Christian to prove that homosexuality isn't biological. I would like to see extensive research that shows a successful washing away of one's gayness. I would love to see psychological studies that allow for sexual preference to be manipulated consistently and without harm to the individual. If God wants people to be straight then shouldn't it be rather easy for those who want to change their sexual preference to do so?

The point is that the argument that homosexuality is a choice is full of holes and logical fallacies. Also, the logic that because the Bible says its a sin it certainly must be so is also just as ridiculous.

Do you agree with 1 Timothy?
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

and because context is so key.........1 Timothy was a letter that most think was written in the generation of the church after Paul died. The church was suffering under terrible persecution. The church originally thought it could handle the persecution and survive within society because they thought Jesus would return imminently. However, as they waited for Christ's return they realized it wasn't going to be imminent so they began to conform to society. Notice that in Paul's early writings women are embraced as equal to men but as time progressed and the church tried to survive it conformed to the patriarchal system of the Roman Empire so they would be seen as good little boys and girls who weren't going to be any threat to the rulers..

Does that context make the verses more palatable to accepting it in today's world? I hope not

I think it's foolish to say that homosexuals are born that way, being the fact that people aren't even sexual at all until the reach puberty. Come on, use common sense and logic, world!

I do however think that it's not a choice. See, the two CAN go hand in hand! I think that the way the child is brought up, and what he/she experiences in life will subconsciously determine if they tend to lean hetero or homo sexual. For example if a female child has an abusive father and a loving mother/sister/female friends I think there might be an improved chance she may go on to hate men and start having feelings for other women when she reaches puberty. Or maybe a little boy is teased by all the girls in his school but shares a close bond and great friendship with his boyhood friends, and starts to love boys a little too much.

reply to post by Lionhearte


To the relief of many parents who feared they might have given the wrong examle, gay scientists now have discovered and isolated the Christian gene and there might even be a cure to Christianity all together...

www.youtube.com...

According to the Bible, they ARE born that way. Their father is of the devil. In Genesis, God says He will put Enmity between her seed and the seed of the Devil. Homosexuality is a character trait of Satan.......if you believe the Word of God.
In the Nephilim cities like Philistia, Canaan, Sodom etc, Homosexuality was a dominant trait. There was a reason God sent David in to kill EVERY man, woman, Child, and Beast. No, not because they were gay, nice try, but because they were the offspring of the Fallen Angels.

Speaking of that, they are set to return in the Age of Aquarius. Whats that you say? It start 12.21.12? Hmmm, seems like that date has a familiar ring!? Huh? Interesting

Originally posted by Bugman82
As a Christan pastor of a church

Thank you for letting us know up front that you have an agenda.

Originally posted by Bugman82
The burden of proof would actually lie on the Christian to prove that homosexuality isn't biological.

You also need to prove the claim that there is a god, and then that your bible is of this god.

Originally posted by Bugman82
For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

the church tried to survive it conformed to the patriarchal system of the Roman Empire so they would be seen as good little boys and girls who weren't going to be any threat to the rulers..

Ah, the Romans made your people write such derogatory things justified by Genesis and carry out these commands given by your people. Onward Christian soldiers.

reply to post by gentledissident

Thank you for letting us know up front that you have an agenda.

I apologize for letting you know up front that I am pissed off at Christians who condemn homosexuality and that I'm one who is striving to change that perspective. As much as you want "Christianity" to be the problem, it isn't. The problem is bigoted people who don't use logic beyond, "God said, I believe it, that settles it".......and that is a very dangerous logic.

You also need to prove the claim that there is a god, and then that your bible is of this god.

I can't prove either one of those claims. I simply prefer to struggle with the idea that God exists and wrestle with the history of others who did the same. I am very open to the idea that God doesn't exist but at this stage of my existence I believe in a higher power. When I say the Bible is, "of God" I'm saying that any religious book or any philosophical or logical idea can be "of God". It is in the struggle with the texts, history, and society that maybe one can truly find God somewhere in the midst of it all. I digress again, where is the discussion on my points about homosexuality?

Ah, the Romans made your people write such derogatory things justified by Genesis and carry out these commands given by your people. Onward Christian soldiers.

No, Christians cling to these texts and justify them by saying, "God said it". This is fallacious, and I simply pointed out that the church adopted the derogatory and shameful practices of the society of the age. It was the church's fault for adopting it when Christ had a completely different message that he was proclaiming. I think you're sorely mistaken if you think I am defending the Christian church.......very mistaken indeed. Maybe you should reread my post and focus on the topic of the thread?

Originally posted by Bugman82
Maybe you should reread my post and focus on the topic of the thread?

So, I should only comment on what you say that is directly associated with homosexuality? I thought I was attacking your premise. I'm pretty sure that without a valid premise, the argument is lost.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by Bugman82
Maybe you should reread my post and focus on the topic of the thread?

So, I should only comment on what you say that is directly associated with homosexuality? I thought I was attacking your premise. I'm pretty sure that without a valid premise, the argument is lost.

Sigh, you completely misrepresented my premise. Nowhere was I arguing for the existence of God. Nowhere was I proclaiming any part of my beliefs to be fact.

My only premise within my entire post is that the idea of accepting the Biblical portrayal of homosexuality as sin is WRONG. How did you not see that in my post? It is very clear and probably why I received numerous stars on the post.

It was a post aimed at shattering the myth that we can take the Bible literally at face value........therefore, its claims that homosexuality is a sin do not hold up to scrutiny.

i don't understand how sexual abuse can be blamed for causing homosexuality, as the person traumatized by the same-sex molestation would develop an aversion, not attraction to the same sex.

the way i see the correlation of sex abuse to sexuality is one of confusion and also even guilt/regret for having not being strong/mature enough to prevent the penetration or fondling from happening but again i dont see how a victim would develop an attraction to the same-sex abuse rather than actually an aversion to and hatred of homosexuals (and a confusion of them with pedophilia and/or incest).

Originally posted by jsmappy
According to the Bible, they ARE born that way. Their father is of the devil. In Genesis, God says He will put Enmity between her seed and the seed of the Devil. Homosexuality is a character trait of Satan.......if you believe the Word of God.

if you (or "God") say so.

i think we have a winner, best answer yet!

One more reason to justify killing/violence upon a vast percent of the human population - - at what age? for God being all-knowing must have killed all progeny of 'fallen angels' at birth, no?

reply to post by BiggerPicture

i don't understand how sexual abuse can be blamed for causing homosexuality, as the person traumatized by the same-sex molestation would develop an aversion, not attraction to the same sex.

At the time the event is occurring the child is led to believe it is normal, acceptable, and right sexual behavior. Also, it is during the stage where the most important formations are occurring in who the person will become. It may relate to the fact that those who are sexually molested as a child are also much more likely to be a molester later in their own lives.

Originally posted by Bugman82

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by Bugman82
Maybe you should reread my post and focus on the topic of the thread?

So, I should only comment on what you say that is directly associated with homosexuality? I thought I was attacking your premise. I'm pretty sure that without a valid premise, the argument is lost.

Sigh, you completely misrepresented my premise. Nowhere was I arguing for the existence of God. Nowhere was I proclaiming any part of my beliefs to be fact.

My only premise within my entire post is that the idea of accepting the Biblical portrayal of homosexuality as sin is WRONG. How did you not see that in my post? It is very clear and probably why I received numerous stars on the post.

It was a post aimed at shattering the myth that we can take the Bible literally at face value........therefore, its claims that homosexuality is a sin do not hold up to scrutiny.

Really, I got it. I'm talking about the idea that there is a god and that it has anything to do with writing that book. I think your point should be that the "word of god" is always a farce and not just sometimes as you point out. The argument should be, It's just a book like Mein Kampf. It's followed out of fear. It's followed because it fits someone's agenda. If gays are gross to some people, they can use that book to justify it. I'm sure that even they aren't fooled by your "The Romans made us do it" excuse.

You're the spiritual leader. I will try to frustrate you. You are my enemy. You try to explain away your book's problems. You endorse the book. You are one of the people actively holding back progress.

Originally posted by milkyway12

reply to post by glitchinthematrix

 

How are you a Christian if you do not believe in the Bible?

edit on 29-4-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

Presumptuous much? I believe whole-heartedly in the Bible...so much so that I don't take it out of context or attempt to preach my particular interpretation of it to others.