Arizona Demands Return of Federal Lands - A Step in the Right Direction?

Arizona is really the epicenter of state to federal tension. In the future, if the economy continues to shrink, I can see Arizona succeeding. I could really see disputes over immigration being the main cause.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by RussianScientists

 

I would like to see Arizona keep their lands open to the public instead of wanting to sell off all of that land.

Selling that land is not right, it is public land, for public use.

Taking back the land just to sell will let other countries like China come in and buy up all of that land with the trillions of US dollars that they have that is otherwise worthless.

As much as YOU or I may not like it, the citizens of Arizona have the right to decide what they do with the lands in their state. If those lands can be turned into a profit (Alaska is a good example) and the citizens benefit then more power to them (literally

)! The quality of life and affordable energy that can be provided from utilizing their land in a productive way can benefit everyone in Arizona and Utah.

Maybe the FED shouldn’t be solely responsible for the fate of US citizens? Could that be what the founders had in mind?

edit on 25-4-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

I personally don't want to see any of those lands sold to anybody, any corporation or any country. I'd like them to stay open and free, I'd like to see the 1875 mining laws open on all of those lands including National Parks land, and to boot out the DOI Department of the Interior. States like Arizona and Utah can collect money another way other than selling off PUBLIC LAND.

MiddleClassWarrior sure knows the truth.

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
reply to post by seabag

 

Oh it's a Republican backed bill

Translation;

They are going to turn the Grand Canyon into Garbage Pit...

All makes sense now

At least it's not the entire left coast, which the liberals turned into one.

Good job, Arizona. Things are looking up there finally.

/TOA

reply to post by stanguilles7

That is a highly subjective statement.

Based on what rate of consumption?

I think the Institute for Energy Research might just have a little more knowledge about this subject than you, though you’re free to speculate with no data!

According to President Obama, the United States contains only 2 percent of the planet’s proven oil reserves, Of course, he’s right — to a point. In classic fashion, he’s using a technicality to skirt the facts and keep the myth of energy scarcity alive. The reality is that the U.S. has enough recoverable oil for the next 200 years, despite only having 2 percent of the world’s current proven oil reserves.

IRS

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RussianScientists
I would like to see Arizona keep their lands open to the public instead of wanting to sell off all of that land.

Selling that land is not right, it is public land, for public use.

Taking back the land just to sell will let other countries like China come in and buy up all of that land with the trillions of US dollars that they have that is otherwise worthless.

Do you not think that the people of that state should be the one to make that kind of decision?

If they want to protect their land, they should be able to fight their LOCAL government to protect it. This is a battle that should be fought state by state.

The federal government is just as corrupt as regional government - of not more so. If I were in the USA, I would want my state to be answerable to their citizens on the protection or sale of land. It's much easier for the people of that state to fight corruption and corporatism and protect their natural resources if the people they have to fight are just down the road, and you don't need millions of $'s in lobbying either.

I have no doubt that those in state government have little "secret deals" with developers here, they are seeing an opportunity to make money. But it's up to the people of that state to fight it.

The people of Arizona won't be able to fight off the selling of their lands. More deals for the land will be made under the table than above it.

Any selling of any of the property is bad.

Arizona is a beautiful place for all peoples of the world to enjoy. But if you start chopping up the land into small and large parcels for greedy peoples benefit, then you will loose the last open wild frontier, along with all of the wild animals that have already been shoved to extinction.

Do people still believe they reap the benefits of private energy companies? Clearly large corporations are lobbying to get the federally protected land opened up. This will not benefit Arizonans in any way. The only ones to benefit will be the CEO's and shareholders of the giant corporations that want to extract the resources from the land. (Oh, don't forget those pesky politicians!) How has fracking benefited your state? How have oil rigs benefited your state? Considering that natural resources should belong to the people, why are private companies allowed to profit off of them? Shouldn't our society or states as a whole benefit from its own natural resources? I'd be happy to show people, who think exploitation of public lands for the benefit of a very few already rich men, how these companies destroy what was once beautiful and clean all for massive profit for the few. Coming from the coal region, I know all too well what happens.

It's pretty obvious some energy corporation is lobbying for this. There is zero, and I mean ZERO, benefit for Arizonans in this bill. This bill is not about freedom. They claim its about rights and freedoms just so the naive support this crap. I think some people would love to sell all the land and leave nothing to nature. They used the same excuses around here so we would allow fracking. They said JOBS, JOBS, JOBS!!! They said MASSIVE REVENUE INCREASES through taxing these companies! Well guess what? None of that is true. Our land, water, and air is contaminated and being destroyed by these companies. Jobs? Yeah, for Texans and other out-of-staters. Almost no one from this area got a job with these corporations. Surely, everyone can see the pattern by now? The companies will buy the public land rights for pennies and then destroy the environment making people sick through contamination and while they reap massive profits the state and its citizens will be left with the bill. Deny ignorance? Apparently not. We take pride in our Game Lands or at least we used to. Now some is sold off to fracking companies. Where's the benefit to the state? No where. It only benefits the few who own the company. By all means though, support the destruction of the environment so a few people can get super rich. Ridiculous. Don't believe for a f'n second that this is about democracy, or freedom, or whatever political talking point you think it is.

P.S. If natural resources were actually extracted by nationalized companies and all the profit went to paying the citizens, whether directly or indirectly through services or funding like paid-for colleges, then I would be all for using public lands in that manner. Since that is not the case and private companies reap massive profit while destroying our public land and leaving the state and it's people with absolutely nothing but pain and suffering, I don't support crap like this and if you were intelligent you wouldn't either.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

Oh it's a Republican backed bill

Translation;

They are going to turn the Grand Canyon into Garbage Pit...

All makes sense now

If Obama keeps them it’ll be used for FEMA camps!

Bottom line is that the FED has no right to ‘occupy’ a state’s land without approval from the citizens of that state. Apparently the ‘citizens’ of Arizona have seen, heard and experienced enough BS from the FED! More power to them!!!

Wow, Obama is sure waiting a long time for his death camps isn't he?


Hey, they can do what they want, fine with me...

I just suspect that when there is nothing to hold the corporate powers back, it is just
a matter of time for that place and I mean that with the upmost sincerity.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
reply to post by seabag

 

Oh it's a Republican backed bill

Translation;

They are going to turn the Grand Canyon into Garbage Pit...

All makes sense now

At least it's not the entire left coast, which the liberals turned into one.

Good job, Arizona. Things are looking up there finally.

/TOA

The left cost is far more beautiful than Arizona or the rest of the country combined.

Things are looking up, developers can final develop the Grand Canyon and
turn it into Las Vegas or something particularly clever and conservative.
I am hoping the turn it into a needle disposal center or something cool like that.

Maybe they can sell the pristine land to the guy who wants to put his nukes in west Texas,
there's big money in that! Plus radation is a liberal myth anyways...

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RussianScientists
I would like to see Arizona keep their lands open to the public instead of wanting to sell off all of that land.

Selling that land is not right, it is public land, for public use.

Taking back the land just to sell will let other countries like China come in and buy up all of that land with the trillions of US dollars that they have that is otherwise worthless.

Do you not think that the people of that state should be the one to make that kind of decision?

If they want to protect their land, they should be able to fight their LOCAL government to protect it. This is a battle that should be fought state by state.

The federal government is just as corrupt as regional government - of not more so. If I were in the USA, I would want my state to be answerable to their citizens on the protection or sale of land. It's much easier for the people of that state to fight corruption and corporatism and protect their natural resources if the people they have to fight are just down the road, and you don't need millions of $'s in lobbying either.

I have no doubt that those in state government have little "secret deals" with developers here, they are seeing an opportunity to make money. But it's up to the people of that state to fight it.

Arizonans won't have a say. There is nothing democratic going on here. As soon as the Arizonan legislature has control of it, the land will be sold to giant corporations. The people of the state will have no say what-so-ever. I mean it's pretty clear what's going on here. Some energy corporations have lobbied the state in order to free up public land and exploit it. The whole idea of a republic is great on paper, but the way the U.S. is set-up the citizens have no say. The idea that if states had all the power people could fight it easier is false. An overwhelming number of people were against fracking, yet my state instituted it after pretending to make concessions. We have a long history of energy companies, like coal companies, destroying the land and leaving no benefit to the people. You think we had a say? Our entire system of democracy is flawed and it doesn't matter if states are completely in control or the federal government is, people just don't have any power. There is nothing even close to resembling democracy or sovereignty concerning this bill. It is purely about private corporations being able to buy the rights and exploit these resources for the benefit of the few. If our energy companies were nationalized, then my point would change since we all would directly benefit. Since profits are private and losses or destruction is socialized, I tend to be skeptical of any company and it's PR firm telling me I will benefit from them reaping in massive profits at the expense of our land and our health. That sounds exactly like trickle-down theory. You let us rape the land and poison your food, air, and water letting us reap massive profits and somehow someway you will benefit. I promise.

I never would have believed my great state would be at the forefront in this battle of power, but I am excited to see it happening. Honestly, it would appear as though Arizona started with the idea of testing boundaries, some rediculously contrived laws have made it through the Arizona House, but the Federal Government's early oversteps on healthcare and immigration have seriously challenged powers delegated to the states. Yes, immigration is controlled by the Fed, but no where does the constitution state that states are exempt from the policing of federal law. More so, the federal government has relied on the individual states to enforce federal law. It is a brilliant move to challenge the federal government on its abusive land grab, considering that it was never intended for the federal government to assume more land than necessary for the operation of government. Maybe a win for the Constitution?

reply to post by RussianScientists

I personally don't want to see any of those lands sold to anybody, any corporation or any country. I'd like them to stay open and free

They aren’t ‘open and free’ NOW as these lands are under Federal control!

If they were ‘free’ then the citizens who pay taxes in Arizona would be ‘FREE’ to do with the lands as they see fit; which they’re attempting to do now.

It doesn’t matter what WE WOULD LIKE unless WE live in ARIZONA.

reply to post by onthedownlow


This bill has nothing to do about freedom, or liberty, or democracy, or state's rights, or any other political talking point they are using to sell this. It is all about private corporations wanting to drill on this land. Arizonans won't benefit at all from this. I could care less what happens in Arizona, the new Florida, but don't be tricked into thinking this is some altruistic battle your representatives are fighting. I'd bet you any money there are multiple giant corporations bribing the politicians in order to get this land opened up. You won't benefit one dime and it will actually end up costing money to pay for medical bills from people who get sick and for cleaning the place up once they extract all they can. If Arizonans overwhelmingly support this, then I really hope they frack the hell out of the land or whatever they plan on doing and destroy the environment and pollute people's food and air and water. If people haven't learned by now not to trust the energy producing companies, they deserve what they get. That's freedom or democracy or putting the federal government in it's place? I'm all about state's rights, but this just won't benefit Arizona, only the CEO's and shareholders along with the politicians. It's pretty obvious that the Arizonan government doesn't want to keep this land protected. If they did, then they would have no problem keeping it under federal control or they would state the land is protected game lands or whatever. I didn't read anywhere in the article that this land was to be kept as game lands or protected lands just in the control of the state and not the federal government. So clearly, this is just to benefit corporations and allow them to get massive profits while screwing over the population.

If someone supports this, at least argue honestly. It has nothing to do with freedom from the federal government, democracy, or state's rights. It is all about private corporations wanting the land. Once again, private profits and socialized losses. (Health, money, land, environment)

Originally posted by seabag


It doesn’t matter what WE WOULD LIKE unless WE live in ARIZONA.

Well, technically speaking, I think the people which border AZ in CA, UT, NV and NM might at least be able to argue that whatever AZ does indeed impacts them as well.

But as for your argument that this somehow represents the will of the entire state of AZ, I'm a bit skeptical. This wasn't something voted on by the public. It's being proposed by a handful of legislators. I mean, it *might* pass. But it hardly represents the lockstep will of all of Arizona.

Nothing I have stated here is a defense of the Federal Government

reply to post by seabag


So now you want to count all of the oil in the US as property of Arizona? What an odd change of heart. And here I thought we were specifically talking about the resources within Arizona.

Also, why do you think oil is the only resource I am referring to? Your claim was that Arizona has enough resources under it's feet to last for the next 200 years. Now you want to talk about how much oil the US has?

Back on Topic:

If the entire state of Arizona really wants to sell off their land to the highest bidder, personally I say go for it. But it's an idiotic move, and wrapping it in some notion of 'states rights' is just the way the companies who will actually profit from those sales packages it to people who most certainly will not reap any substantial, long-term gain from a multi-national corporation coming in and sucking up every last ounce of wood, water, and every mineral they can market

But sure. Put it on the ballot this year. Make it a true 'vote of the people' and see if it passes.

reply to post by RussianScientists

The people of Arizona won't be able to fight off the selling of their lands. More deals for the land will be made under the table than above it.

So WE THE PEOPLE are better able to fight off a huge overbearing FED than a little overbearing state government (where the representatives live next door)?

It’s this exact mindset that got us into this mess. Thanks for giving a voice to TPTB, as if it wasn’t big enough!

NEWS FLASH - The FED isn't the answer to our problems!!!

Originally posted by KillThePoor
reply to post by onthedownlow

 

If someone supports this, at least argue honestly. It has nothing to do with freedom from the federal government, democracy, or state's rights. It is all about private corporations wanting the land. Once again, private profits and socialized losses. (Health, money, land, environment)

On the contrary, It has everything to do with state's rights. The idea, originally penned into the Constitution, was that state's were more beholden to their constituents than the Federal Government, and thus they would be more accountable. Yes, government has run amok, but the absolute best way to start regaining control is at the local and state municipalities. We live in a republic, the central government was intended to be limited, yet it has continually added to its excessive powers. This is the TRUTH.

reply to post by KillThePoor

This bill has nothing to do about freedom, or liberty, or democracy, or state's rights, or any other political talking point they are using to sell this. It is all about private corporations wanting to drill on this land. Arizonans won't benefit at all from this.

Really? Like Alaskans don’t benefit??

The Alaska Permanent Fund is a constitutionally established permanent fund, managed by a semi-independent corporation, established by Alaska in 1976, primarily by the efforts of then Governor Jay Hammond. Shortly after the oil from Alaska’s North Slope began flowing to market through the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, the Permanent Fund was created by an amendment to the Alaska Constitution to be an investment for at least 25% of proceeds from some mineral (such as oil and gas) sales or royalties. The Alaska Permanent Fund sets aside a certain share of oil revenues to continue benefiting current and all future generations of Alaskans.

en.wikipedia.org...

It isn’t a perfect situation and it has had its share of fraud but look at the fraud perpetrated on the federal level. You should stop getting your info from Obama and the MSM, sir.

If someone supports this, at least argue honestly. It has nothing to do with freedom from the federal government, democracy, or state's rights. It is all about private corporations wanting the land. Once again, private profits and socialized losses. (Health, money, land, environment)

Please inform me as to how these same lands are benefiting American’s today….I’ll wait! Is site seeing more important than cheaper energy? Last I checked there were plenty of camp grounds and STATE PARKS!

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