Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Tortur, page 7

posted on May, 2 2012 @ 09:50 PM

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Congratulations, your playing of the race card proves how brainwashed by the MSM you truly are, good job. I suppose you also jumped on the left wing MSM "let's hang Mr. Zimmerman bandwagon" before all the facts are in as well.

It was you that first played the race card when you called them sub-human vermin, remember? When you decided it was ok to torture members of a certain race and religion? I fail to see how I am brainwashed by the MSM when I am not demonising Islamists like you are.

I don't buy into the left/right paradigm, becauses its bull#.

I agree with the other poster that if a torture victim didn't give the answer you wanted, you'd probably just keep on torturing them till you got it.

No, unlike yourself and many other sheep who have been manipulated into thinking there is no threat I KNOW who my enemy is and I will vote accordingly to keep the nut-jobs out of my country; especially after seeing what radical islam has done to parts of Europe.

I don't deny for a second there are real terrorists out there. My point is:

1. The threat is massively overstated.
2. The response to the threat is massively disproportional to the threat.
3. You created the threat in the first place, and can also stop it just by practicing peace instead of constantly invading their countries and #ing them over.
4. BOTH SIDES have blood on their hands. BOTH. Not one, but both. You are obviously too biased to see that though.

Good god, I wish I had seen this part of your post before I even responded to you as I see you are one of *THOSE* types.
Toodles

Yeah one of those type of people who considers both sides of the argument and makes an informed decision, rather than blindly believing one side and demonising the other. I believe they are called "Free thinkers"? The general consensus is they are dangerous

Cecilofs

posted on May, 2 2012 @ 09:55 PM

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Originally posted by Golf66An interview on CNN is hardly the evidince. I want to see the trial transcripts and proof that there is a direct correlation between the practice of waterboarding and thier death sentence as a stand alone cause.

Because the US military always makes the transcripts of their secret military trials available to the public.

No wait they don't.

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Golf66

posted on May, 2 2012 @ 10:06 PM

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Originally posted by Cecilofs

Originally posted by Golf66
I guess it is true that words are relative. To someone whom college exams are a high stress event or maybe hasn’t left the couch in a while a good many things on the enhanced technique list might be torture. To someone who has never been challenged for his life an open handed slap/face grab may be torture – not to me.

Well there's nothing like making stuff up about your opponent to try and look like you are right. Grats on being so tough though.

No, I've never been tortured. I have experienced enough pain and have enough empathy to know I don't enjoy it and I don't enjoy inflicting it on others. Only sadists enjoy inflicting pain on other people.

I don't think I made up anything about an "opponent" I don't consider you an opponent. I merely made a "for instance" there are many things I could have chosen to use as an example - I don't know anything about you personally.

I am simply pointing out that what the average American with no military training might consider torture is not necessarily so. Uncomfortable, sure, unpleasant of course - torture...meh not so much. To a hard core operator muscle fatigue is not really torture - its exercise. Being hungry is common and sleep deprived comes with every mission cycle.

What is hard math to you might not be to me (then again if it’s more than HS algebra I can't do it) or insert whatever you want in there - torture is relative to a man's breaking point and everyone has a different point. One man might spill his whole story for a cigarette, another only if exposed to spiders or snakes or water while hungry, sleepy and cold.

All men are different taking away tools only ensures that each man will most assuredly be taken to his because the fear or threat of the action is no longer there. Our CinC has said what we won't do - no way to threaten it any longer. The threat was usually 95% of the time - enough.

See for instance I personally think you charging that your implication that I enjoy inflicting pain on others and calling me a sadist is an indicator of your ignorance on the subject.

I already said in above posts that no one (including me) likes doing a hard core enhanced interrogation. It's emotionally and physically draining. It doesn't take good questioning skills or an interrogation plan - its just a test of wills. It does work though like with kids, some will cry at a scolding and a grounding is the kiss of death, some will laugh off all but corperal punishment.

I would much rather do a nice debrief over tea and a smoke with my subject (I don't enjoy smoking but will do it to gain an in it makes arab men relaxed if you smoke for some reason they get standoffish if you decline) - as about 75% of all the sessions end up.

Cecilofs

posted on May, 2 2012 @ 10:47 PM

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Originally posted by Golf66See for instance I personally think you charging that your implication that I enjoy inflicting pain on others and calling me a sadist is an indicator of your ignorance on the subject.

I shouldn't have implied that. I guess there's a difference between enjoying it and thinking its necessary. Well it gives me some hope at least.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, and I hope that I never meet you in person. I am sure the feeling is mutual.

Golf66

posted on May, 3 2012 @ 04:38 PM

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Originally posted by Cecilofs
I guess we have to agree to disagree, and I hope that I never meet you in person. I am sure the feeling is mutual.

No - I could be your neighbor, you never know. I'm sure we could have a civil conversation - if I can have a civil conversation with a terrorist who just tried to set a bomb that would have killed my soldiers I can have one with anyone.

Interrogation is neccessary some people will roll over for next to nothing. Some require the hard sell. Either way it needs to be done.

SayonaraJupiter

posted on May, 3 2012 @ 08:10 PM

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Jose Rodriguez on CBS 60 Minutes.
This is from the first 2 minutes of the video:

"For the first time in our history we had an enemy come into our homeland and kill 3,000 people. I mean, that was a huge deal."

(Licks his lips)

"People jumping from the towers to their death, people running away from the cloud of dust terrified out of their mind. This was a threat and we had to throw everything at it." Source www.cbsnews.com...

Stahl: "Did you go to the Dark Side?
Gonzalez: "Well, The Dark Side, that's what we do."
Stahl: "You are the Dark Side?"
Gonzalez: " We are the Dark Side."

SayonaraJupiter

posted on May, 3 2012 @ 08:49 PM

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This man drives a white Corvette convertible to ~~work~~ (oops I forgot he retired from the CIA in 2008). and he destroyed 92 video torture tapes in an industrial bulk shredder. "Everything that was on those tapes was authorized by the US Government. There was nothing to cover up." He did it "To protect the American people."

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Golf66

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 12:20 PM

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Originally posted by Cecilofs

Originally posted by Golf66
I guess it is true that words are relative. To someone whom college exams are a high stress event or maybe hasn’t left the couch in a while a good many things on the enhanced technique list might be torture. To someone who has never been challenged for his life an open handed slap/face grab may be torture – not to me.

Well there's nothing like making stuff up about your opponent to try and look like you are right. Grats on being so tough though.

Hey I found this today and I think it illustrates the point I was trying to make - stress and pain are relative to ones experiances.

Jocko Flocko

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 01:53 PM

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It's all about punishing those sub-human Islamic nut-jobs.

I thought I was trying to spin it back in to the topic. Should we waterboard terrorist SUSPECTS to find out if they know about other terror plots. Remember, the original London Olympic bomber question was yours. I answered it by saying that in the scenario you described that waterboarding would not be my first impulse, investigation would.

Did you catch it yet? Do you see your mistake even after I told you I would be fine with water-boarding ANYONE committing such barbaric acts against innocent civilians? If it was Israelis that were packing cars full of explosives and detonating them in crowded civilian areas every few days I would be for water-boarding them as well. I would also consider them useless sub-human garbage worthy of nothing but a bullet in the brain, after the water-boarding of course. However, they don't. They aren't driven by a barbaric ideology that fills them with hatred. But that's a whole other topic.

You didn't really answer my question at first because you seemed to take offense that the suspect might say that Israel was involved. No problem, I understand. And I don't want to sound like I'm putting words in your mouth, but I believe if YOU had been conducting that interrogation, and the suspect said Israel was involved, I get the impression that you would have dismissed it out of hand, without investigation, even if it were the truth. You would have continued to interrogate the suspect until he told you something you would believe, like Islamic radicals were behind the plot.

I sure did, I used nutty chocolate eating Swiss clock makers as an example, because Israel being involved in terrorist attacks that take place on a daily basis around the world is just as silly and asinine as an example as a Swiss chocolate maker with an axe to grind. But I can see how some anti-Israel conspiracy theorists might actually believe that those evil Jews are somehow behind the creation of al-qaeda.

In your scenario, it's possible that the bomb plot could be carried out by old IRA members, or some Greeks who are POed about austerity measures, or even some Brits who are upset about all the Middle Eastern people coming into their country and they see Islamic radicals as a convenient scapegoat. But when the suspect saw your reaction to the suggestion that Israel might be involved, he would know exactly who to blame to make the interrogation stop.

The scenarios you mention above have about as much chance of taking place as America does paying of it's debt under Obummer. However, an advanced interrogator would know how to dismiss certain claims as he would be asking questions about confirmed intelligence; he would just be trying to get more information about the situation. Most likely the interrogator would be from a middle eastern background, as the CIA would want to make the suspect feel like he has something in common.

So, I don't think that torture is a very effective interrogation technique. Especially when the interrogator has such a blind hatred for the person they are torturing. You can't really torture someone without having at least a little hatred for them, and hatred will blind people to the truth. Even when that truth is handed to them on a silver platter.

This is blind conjecture, nothing more. Your statement is baseless due to the fact that the public only knows one thing, the technique that is used, not the mindset of the people who are interrogating prisoners or their ethnic background.
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Jocko Flocko

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Yeah one of those type of people who considers both sides of the argument and makes an informed decision, rather than blindly believing one side and demonising the other. I believe they are called "Free thinkers"?

I take issue with anyone who compares a vile repugnant vermin terrorist to a Canadian soldier for example. If anyone were walking down the street in my town saying such things, we would have words. Period.
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Jocko Flocko

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by Golf66

I enjoy reading your posts, so please, don't take this the wrong way, but if you are who you say you are -I'm not doubting your claims it's just that there's way too MANY fakers on ATS- Should you really be coming out on ATS and talking about this stuff, didn't you sign an NDA for national security reasons?

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Golf66

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
reply to post by Golf66

I enjoy reading your posts, so please, don't take this the wrong way, but if you are who you say you are -I'm not doubting your claims it's just that there's way too MANY fakers on ATS- Should you really be coming out on ATS and talking about this stuff, didn't you sign an NDA for national security reasons?

edit on 8-5-2012 by Jocko Flocko because: (no reason given)

With regard to this particular thread - I opine because quite simply, I don't see what we do as torture. We do worse to our own Soldiers in training - I will leave it at that.

I have signed several NDA's for many different programs. The fact I attended SERE school, was in Special Forces, and such and what they teach there is not a state secret in any way. It’s all on my DD214 filed at the county court house. The courses are changed all the time and I am sure that what I learned in the late 1980s in SERE are so outdated as to be irrelevant today. If you look up SERE school on google you can find out more about it than I have revealed. A key piece of information is missing to make anything I have said a case of either confermation or denial or knowledge of an activity i.e. punishable under the law - an identity. I am an anonymous account on a conspiracy site. The ultimate in plausable deniability. If that ever changes i.e. with the true ID law or whatever - I will stop the internet.

One cannot tie my real name to this account other than I guess the owners of the site and the skilled agents of the government. I suppose if it really mattered to someone with TPTB they could hunt me down and if they really dig deep maybe spank me on the pee pee but I have done the classification avoidance dance a lot and don't think I have divulged anything of national security interest. I have also played the plausible deniability game more than I care to in the past and think I have make a good case for in the veil of anonymity the internet provides. In sum I am not really afraid of TPTB. They can come get me, you or anyone else should they want to and make it all look like an accident. I don't live in fear of it any more.

I gave no real operational details. I only stated that like the CIA officer claims in his book - which was cleared by the SSO we did indeed do these things. I said I did them. I didn't say where, when and to whom. I was also a trainer in RTI both in the US and in England for a while (that is also on my DD214). I also said that I was assigned to Uzbekistan (also on my DD214) for a while and that they truly tortured the # out of people there – I think. I never witnessed any of it - I only saw the after effects. The victims were not necessarily our prisoners either - I never indicated who they were.

Why I choose to comment at all on ATS is because, I trust the government probably less than most in America because I have seen first-hand what they are capable of. I have participated in it. I make no excuses I was well paid for my time and enjoy an excellent retirement and for the most part would do all the same things again.

To put it bluntly the world of intelligence and special operations is not a world of black and white. The world is not a pretty place it is inhabited by all manner of real human monsters. Sometimes we cut deals with the monsters and employ then when its suits our temporary needs - sometimes we hunt them down and kill them with extreme prejudice. Sometimes, we do both in that order.

In all cases it is necessary. Unsavory, but neccesary.

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