Quantum Experiments, Proof that Human Consciousness influences Particles

reply to post by masterp

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the non-interference pattern appears on the screen.
4) the which-path info is erased.
5) the interference pattern appears on the screen.

WHAT? That makes no sense at all. How can the pattern magically change on its own after it has already appeared? I think you must be wrong about the flow... I cannot see how that is possible, but I will read it carefully just in case.

reply to post by masterp


Omg, glaring proof that you don't get this at all, again.

The flow of events is: 1) the experiment is executed. 2) the experiment finishes. 3) the non-interference pattern appears on the screen. 4) the which-path info is erased. 5) the interference pattern appears on the screen. In other words, an event that happens after another event affects that event.

But the particles have already hit the screen before the erasure happens, so the non wave pattern is already on the screen. It is there, it's set, it shouldn't be changeable, yet when the wich path info is erased, it does show the interference pattern when they look at the screen for the first time.

The screen changes from showing the results it registered in the past to showing the results that are in line with what the experimenter knows in the present.

This is impossible. The only explanation is that the pattern on the screen adapts to the experimenters knowledge. Wich is consciousness.

I asked you this multiple times before. How else can you explain this?

No, it's not a logical fallacy. Things happen when we don't look.

Oh yes it is buddy, how can know you something has happened, if you don't check afterwards in one way or another?

As long as we don't look, or get indirect results or an effect we can observe, noone can say that something happened or not.

Real simple actually.

Can a dream appear without the dreamer?
Something has to know the dream for the dream to have 'existence'. But the dream vanishes. Nothing is any more solid than a dream. Only the dreamer is real. Just dreaming dreams.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

But the particles have already hit the screen before the erasure happens, so the non wave pattern is already on the screen. It is there, it's set, it shouldn't be changeable, yet when the wich path info is erased, it does show the intereference pattarn when they look at the screen for the first time.

Excuse me... but HOW can they know which pattern is on the screen before the erasure if they haven't looked until AFTER the erasure?

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Simple, if they don't erase the wich path info, stop there and look at the screen there is a non interference pattern. It's the same result every time. It's what's expected.

So when they erase the info after the particles have hit the screen, logic dictates that it should display a non wave pattern, but it doesn't.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname


It seems to me you are describing two different processes.

The first is like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the which-path info is observed.
4) the non-interference pattern is observed.

The next is like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the which-path info is erased.
4) the interference pattern is observed.

However, you are explaining a process like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the which-path info is observed.
4) the non-interference pattern is observed.
5) the which-path info is erased.
6) the interference pattern is observed.

In between point 4 and 6 you are suggesting the state of the pattern magically changes. That seems incorrect to me, it simply does not make sense.

The experiment has two stages: first the experimenter marks through which slit each photon went, without disturbing their movement, and demonstrates that the interference pattern is destroyed. This stage shows that it is the existence of the "which-path" information which causes the destruction of the interference pattern. The second stage goes by erasing the "which-path" information, and demonstrating that the interference pattern is recovered. It does not matter whether the erasure procedure is done before or after the detection of the photons.

Quantum eraser experiment

How does that first stage prove it's the existence of the data? Clearly, the experimenter observes the path of each freaking photon. It could have been the observation. Now the second stage confuses me... I simply don't understand how they can already look at the pattern from the first stage, and even look at the which-path data, and the delete the data and the pattern magically changes... it's simply absurd. The pattern cannot change on it's own. Furthermore, this is suggesting that one can know the which-path info, then delete it, then observe the pattern and it will be an interference pattern. That is also absurd. Please help me understand this...

Originally posted by masterp
reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

 

You are correct that the availability of the 'which path' determines the particle status as a wave, but you are wrong that this has to do with human consciousness. The particle regains its wave status simply because the information is erased, not because a human observes it.

They erase the which path data, the interference pattern returns because the information is gone. Does the pattern return because a human CAN NOT view the data or DOES NOT view the data? In other words, if the experiment runs unattended does the pattern show up? Or is that a moot point because if it is unattended there is no-one to see the pattern either....

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname


Thank you for this - I have thought about that experiment since the first time I read about it. I have been trying to wrap my brain around it ever since. I LOVE this sort of thing!
So - please bear with me, I'm trying to make sure I have this straight - once the data is deleted from the recording device, the original data on the screen actually changes?? Do they have this recorded? For example, have they set up a camera that records the entire process, and shows that exactly when the recording data is deleted from the recording device, the results change back? Just a video camera in the room the experiment is being conducted in?
I am very curious to know if recording the entire process would interfere with the results as well - or if it only occurs when it is being directly observed and recorded on the same level as the particles themselves.
I hope you get my meaning - I am in no way a physicist - I just like this stuff and am always curious....

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Read my post again. From experience and earlier reults, wich are always the same, they know that knowing the wich path info always results in an non interference pattern.

So in this setup, they erase the wich path info AFTER the particles have hit the screen under the circumstance in wich the wich path info is KNOWN.

There has to be a non interference pattern on the screen. It should be the same result as the other times the wich path info was known.

Yet it is not if they erase the info AFTER the particles have hit the screen and logically made a non interference pattern.

Do you get it now? Not really worth dwelling on this part, it is really straightforward.

Also like I said, and I'm not sure about this, it this case it only matter if the wich path info is available, but not sure how that works. But it's the experimenter's own words that say the outcome changes ina way that should not be possible.

reply to post by followingpythagoras

 

Thank you and my pleasure, I think the above answers part of your question. And yes you understood correctly.

The other part I honestly don't know, i have a lot of practical questions myself, was thinking about writing to some of these scientists.

All I can say is that I feel my conclusions based on the available info are inescapable to an open mind.

reply to post by djmarcone

 

They erase the which path data, the interference pattern returns because the information is gone. Does the pattern return because a human CAN NOT view the data or DOES NOT view the data? In other words, if the experiment runs unattended does the pattern show up? Or is that a moot point because if it is unattended there is no-one to see the pattern either....

Good question not sure but logic dictates it is a moot point for the exact reason you gave.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname


I just read the wiki page for the simpler Quantum Eraser Experiment and there are indeed two setups. The pattern does not magically change. It is only observed at the end of each experiment. The two setups are like this:

The first is like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the which-path info is observed.
4) the non-interference pattern is observed.

The next is like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the experiment finishes.
3) the which-path info is erased.
4) the interference pattern is observed.

But the first setup is actually more like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the photons are 'marked' (spin wise).
3) the photons hit the detector.
4) the non-interference pattern is observed.

And the second setup is actually more like this:

1) the experiment is executed.
2) the photons are 'marked' (spin wise).
3) the photons are 'unmarked'.
4) the photons hit the detector.
5) the non-interference pattern is observed.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Check Delayed Choice Eraser exp.

en.wikipedia.org...

The interference pattarn is there when it shouldn't. Are you going to argue the conclusions made by the scientists?

I can't help you understand it. Anyone that says they understand the results is a liar.

All I can offer you is the explanation of consciousness, cause it is the only explanation.

The pattern does not magically change. It is only observed at the end of each experiment.

I said it was oberved at the end. The conclusion of the exp was that it did somehow show an impossible result that defies out timeline.

Originally posted by masterp

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by masterp

 

You haven't got a clue have you. The wich path info is erased AFTER the particles have already hit the screen when the wich path info was still available.

Then the info is erased, but the pattern associated with the info being known should be on the screen, because it is erased afterward.

Yet when the experimenter looks, it shows an interference pattern. This is impossible.

It is not impossible at all. In the quantum world, causality can be violated. The theory of relativity has not yet been linked to quantum physics.

The presence of an experimenter is irrelevant. It is the properties of the quantum world that do this.

A new experiment may prove that it is possible to send information back in time:

science.slashdot.org...

In this experiment, the outcome of an event is present before its cause.

Consciousness has nothing to do with it (because consciousness actually does not exist, it is simply the thought processes of the brain).

Simply? That is a little of an understatement don't you think? Because of this statement I'm going to assume you don't know what you're talking about and I can see why the OP is having to repeat himself several times without you ever answering any of his questions. Without derailing the thread, the fact that consciousness is just a brain phenomenon is not been proven and still remains a mystery. There are many mysteries revolving consciousness because of at home experiments that anyone can do in their own home with a little intention and practice they can accomplish OBE, lucid dreaming, telepathy, these all remain a HUGE mystery to some... but for others we know what it is this is why for me the double slit experiment doesn't come to a surprise for me. But please don't pawn consciousness off as brain process because it goes much more deeper and complicated than that...

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

Please respond to my claims about the Quantum Eraser Experiment, wich is what this thread really is about like I clearly said.

I've never heard of this experiment. i'll have to do some digging....

But to be clear, the double slit experiment shows that the act of measuring is what changes the outcome, not the consciousness of the observer. when they say observer, they mean the equipment. Think about it, how can you measure the path of an electron without interacting with it in some way, and that interaction changes the outcome.

the other side to that is the uncertainty principle. If we measure a particles position in time as accurately as possible, we can not accurately describe it's speed, and vice versa.

reply to post by samaka


Agreed, you just have to check out the current Remote Viewing thread to see what consciousness is capable of.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Sigh, go back and read the whole OP, that was what this thread was about mainly, the proof that it is not the Observer Effect, not the physical act of measuring that collapses the wave.

i am in no way a scientist but have thought about these type of things quite a bit, and am a little confused about what thing. how can one seperate the act of measureing from the observer effect?
it seems to me that all acts of measuring are in fact conscious. there is no measuring of anything without a consciousness involved. there are things in nature which might appear to be measuring but are not.
so how does one seperate measuring something from an actualy act of conscious will?

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname


Ok, I just read deeply into the "delayed choice quantum eraser" experiment and it has nothing to do with the pattern changing after it has already been measured. All it does is prove that the detection devices aren't causing the collapse of the wave function. What it does is prove that the pattern is determined according to whether or not the path information can be determined for any given photon. The detectors are set up in such a way where some of them allow you to determine the path information for a photon, and some of them don't. By proving that the detectors which don't give path information have an interference pattern, and the detectors which do provide that information don't, they were able to prove that the resulting pattern is determined by the ability to determine the path information.

reply to post by The Benevolent Adversary


Observer Effect,

In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on the phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner.

This is not a conscious thing.

It only becomes a conscious thing when the results are checked by a person.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname


I think that what this shows is complex. It does not show that "human consciousness" controls all things, because it relies on the physical act of measurement. On the other hand, it also shows that measurement DOES affect particle or wave status if we were to project a given model on to Quantum reality. What I think that this actually may show is that we cannot project any model of our own on to Quantum reality. The New Age ideas may be problematic, if actually somewhat unimaginative, but so are the constraints of mainstream western philosophy (along with the materialism and neo-determinism of Daniel Dennett, Dawkins and crew). Again, the physical act of measurement rules out the idea that human consciousness in and of itself affecting things, but at the same time consciousness *was* behind the building of the equipment. All arguments for consciousness arising from determinism become circular given that any fixed model of Quantum reality relies on the measurements made possible by consciousness itself, ruling out any possible falsifiability in the argument for consciousness arising from inert reality.

Arguably, perhaps it is "the Universe observing itself" as some pantheists might allege. Even this too is simplistic, if not necessarily wrong, because it is not specific enough. What we might actually be observing is a limit on our ability to measure made necessary by Relativity, but seemingly contradicting the information limit imposed by Relativity, hence leading us beyond either Newtonianism or Relativity as a guide to the most small. I think that what this actually might verify is a kind of metaphysical positivism in which there are limits on any model we could possibly impose on this Universe. That means that the Universe is more complicated than we can know. And, it also means that perhaps what we call Consciousness is actually embedded in the cosmic nature of Reality itself. It would not be "human consciousness" at all, but rather Consciousness without boundaries or limitations. Of course, string theorists claim that they have reconciled Relativity and Quantum Physics and their arguments are always a bit interesting, if eleven dimensional.

That was my stand-up cosmic routine. In any case, Ken Wilber has come the closest to a real analysis of this idea that does not rely on crystals, dolphins, star guides and lots of money from old widows in Beverly Hills. His book "No Boundary" blends science and eastern philosophy in ways that make a lot more sense than anything relying on "experts" who channel material, imo.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


No, the setup is such that when the experimenter looks at the detectors that are associated with the wich path info being unknown afterwards, the pattern on the screen is an interference pattern if the screen is also checked afterwards, even though at the time the particles hit the screen the wich path info was available, wich should have caused a non interference pattern.

The delayed choice quantum eraser, allows the decision whether to measure or destroy the "which path" information to be delayed until after the entangled particle partner (the one going through the slits) has either interfered with itself or not. Doing so appears to have the bizarre effect of causing the outcome of an event after the event has already occurred. In other words, something that happens at time t apparently reaches back to some time t - 1 and acts as a determining causal factor at that earlier time. However, the interference pattern can only be seen retroactively once the idler photons have already been detected and the experimenter has obtained information about them, with the interference pattern being seen when the experimenter looks at particular subsets of signal photons that were matched with idlers that went to particular detectors.

The delayed choice quantum eraser, allows the decision whether to measure or destroy the "which path" information to be delayed until after the entangled particle partner (the one going through the slits) has either interfered with itself or not. Doing so appears to have the bizarre effect of causing the outcome of an event after the event has already occurred. In other words, something that happens at time t apparently reaches back to some time t - 1 and acts as a determining causal factor at that earlier time.

These are the conclusions, are you still gonna asgue against that?

By proving that the detectors which don't give path information have an interference pattern, and the detectors which do provide that information don't, they were able to prove that the resulting pattern is determined by the ability to determine the path information.

The detectors that show the the wich path info don't show an interference pattern, the detector screen does.

The signal particles go directly to the screen, the idlers, or entangled partners go to the detectors that show either "wich path" info available, or not.

reply to post by EarthEvolves

I think that what this shows is complex. It does not show that "human consciousness" controls all things, because it relies on the physical act of measurement

This is the last time I will respond to posts like this.

I explained in the OP that this is not the case. I repeated it a hundred times.