Quantum Experiments, Proof that Human Consciousness influences Particles

reply to post by jiggerj


It's not that direct, the consciousness would only come into play regarding the information about which path the particle took, or in not knowing it, in the setup of the exp.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Okay, don't bite me. If this question is ridiculous just ignore it. If the experimenter's consciousness has any effect at all, can't the experimenter WILL the photons to form a set pattern?

That's actually a good question. A really good question.

Why, if the experimenter's consciousness is what's affecting the results, hasn't at least one experimenter actually consciously affected the outcome of the experiment? Why is the result confined to only one of two established outcomes. And why is it always the same outcome when the process is affected by the consciousness of the experimenter? Obviously, if it really is the consciousness that is having the impact, then the inevitable attempt to further shape the pattern result would - eventually - yield a clear impact (conscious thought being the wildly dynamic potential that it is). Why such a pedestrian and severely restricted pattern effect?

It can't be because none of the experimenters - over the years that people have been conducting this experiment - have ever attempted to further develop the consciousness impact and refine it in a clearly demonstrative manner. And if that's failed, why hasn't that fact been added as part of the results suite?

reply to post by NorEaster


That's just BS, the exp is setup in a way that has to follow rules like everything. With knowing or not knowing the path consciousness comes into play.

If you are going to argue that they should also be able to consciously affect the whole pattern on the screen you might as well expect them to levitate and make unicorns and rainbows appear. You know better than to use such logic.

Everything is bound to rules, even though consciousness plays a part.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by jiggerj

 

It's not that direct, the consciousness would only come into play regarding the information about which path the particle took, or in not knowing it, in the setup of the exp.

If it's not direct, then it's not affecting it. Impacting a trajectory is a direct influence, and that's just the way things are. We call that sort of influence a collision when it occurs (head-on or glancing blow, it's still a collision). To redirect a forward trajectory, it takes a collision. This means that any colliding influence must exist as physical and be subject to the same dynamics as the item already in trajectory that is to be affected.

It's not like magic or Uri Geller sh*t. It's either governed by physics or it's being misunderstood by the researcher.

reply to post by NorEaster


Whatever, you are not talking about the findings posted in this thread. Just giving your own spin on things.

I think I'm done here for today, been a long one.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by NorEaster

 

That's just BS, the exp is setup in a way that has to follow rules like everything. With knowing or not knowing the path consciousness comes into play.

If you are going to argue that they should also be able to consciously affect the whole pattern on the screen you might as well expect them to levitate and make unicorns and rainbows appear. You know better than to use such logic.

Everything is bound to rules, even though consciousness plays a part.

My point is that if you're going to insist that the experimenter's consciousness is affecting the flight of a particle, then you can't draw the line on the amount of impact that can be imposed by that conscious thought process just because you're finding yourself standing out in a field that's not where you feel comfortable standing. You don't get to draw that line, and neither does any experimenter who is peddling the consciousness effect assertion here.

Reality is what it is, and either it allows the experimenter's mind to affect the results (meaning that it is affecting the trajectory of the particles themselves) or it doesn't. And if it does, then that opens the door to a full-on controlling of the particle's flight, since the established "rules" that deny that sort of trajectory manipulation are already null and void. Inventing arbitrary limits on the impact of the experimenter's consciousness (within whatever borders you feel personally comfortable with) isn't an option. Also, the specific level of influence (per consciousness of experimenter) can't be restricted or even reliably predicted if this influence is what's causing the results. This is due to the unique and individual nature of human consciousness.

I'm seeing a lot of very serious problems with this entire premise. I suspect a misunderstanding of the data results. I know it's been signed off on, but the extended ramifications of that result assertion are much too troublesome to simply ignore. Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are extended ramifications associated with everything that is real.

Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Whatever, you are not talking about the findings posted in this thread. Just giving your own spin on things.

I think I'm done here for today, been a long one.

I've been through the double-slit experiment debate before. I'm very well aware of what I'm discussing here. The ramifications are not limited to the limits of the published data, and this is the problem with the published data. This is why the mainstream scientific community sees it all as interesting but not definitive. There are obvious problems that emerge when the relative context surrounding the results is fully examined. Too much reality that conflicts with the results themselves.

Agreed that there is something else at play here. Obviously, something we don't know. Imagine that for a second!

Nonetheless, at this point we have created something that switches states, based on, information/observation. Hmm, sounds vaguely familiar. Good news is that is seems predictable and repeatable.

Originally posted by zayonara
Agreed that there is something else at play here. Obviously, something we don't know. Imagine that for a second!

Nonetheless, at this point we have created something that switches states, based on, information/observation. Hmm, sounds vaguely familiar. Good news is that is seems predictable and repeatable.

edit on 25-4-2012 by zayonara because: (no reason given)

The observation isn't active. It's viewed in retrospect after being recorded by camera on a data disk. That kind of nullifies the idea of direct human consciousness being involved too. The whole thing has issues. Maybe it's something to do with the camera rig? Electromagnetic, involving the mechanism required to capture the actual particle flight. I think it's irresponsible to walk off on an anomalous indication and declare it to be the result of consciousness. That's like blaming God for stuff.

reply to post by NorEaster


My first thoughts after reading the thread, before I even got to the observation piece, was that these electrons are flashing through "something" to get from the gun to the screen. They must be interacting with stuff along the way. Stuff that could change states, vibrate, bounce, tag along, cause diffractions....etc.

Here's my take on the subject.

Reality is infinite and eternal, linear time does not exist, everything is happening right now here and everywhere all simultaneously, not only in our universe but in other universes and on an infinite amount of parallel realities.

What we interpret as reality is simply underlying data transmitted as waves and seen and interpreted by our sensory organs according to their limited capacity. This I believe is why the matter that we see only consist of 5% of the mass that galaxies should contain, there are other frequencies and dimensions there but we can not see nor experience them for we are on a different "channel" if you will but we still know they are there. I believe sometimes bugs or circumstances do occur which allow crossing over to other frequencies, Ghosts and some UFO's might be examples of that.

We are all one consciousness experiencing different parts, subjects, of itself from different points of view through infinite limited experiences and learning from them. It consists of one human over soul that consists of other over souls which in turn experience itself through our experience in our so called universe, this is why some may remember earlier lives through hypnosis.

Many conspiracy theories are real to us, it is obvious.. and yet billions do not see it, is it because they are not looking, or looking in the wrong direction? Is it because they have become indoctrinated by the TV, fluoride and media propaganda or even mind control? Are they all conspiring against us? Is anyone else real or is everyone a figment of my imagination? Am I real?

It is very difficult to convince an already made up mind. I believe this is because our reality is a shared creation of agreements, but disagreements make our realities fundamentally different and are thus not the same exact reality. If you are religious you will experience a reality according to your own beliefs and affirming them, if you are not then you won't. Is it not strange that you yourself are always the most logical, and other people are stupid for not seeing the obvious truths you are pointing out when it is staring them right in their face? That is just it, perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is not even existing in their reality.

Essentially our intentions and convictions literally shape our reality. Basically if you are negative and angry, you will experience a world more on the same wavelength. If we are not careful and don't have a clue about this, we might instead create and feed someone elses reality, one of the manipulators with secret knowledge perhaps, and give up our right to be free to create our own reality of our own choices.

Reality have many properties that you find in computers, laws of physics like the speed of light is the max frame rate.. gravity seems to be able to manipulate that and decrease the frame rate for heavy objects for instance. Reality and life shaping itself after mathematical calculations of formulas of phi into different forms of fractals and creating essentially everything we see. Error checks are also in DNA like in computers. There are a multitude of great videos on YouTube to open your mind about the holographic universe and quantum physics, quantum computing and the omega simulation is also mind blowing . Example here:
www.youtube.com...

Spirituality may be important, but specific religion does not matter. The god and atheism debate really does not matter, both may actually even be right. God may be we and we may be him.. consciousness. God may or may not also exist as a separate divine being from that consciousness, who knows. To argue about it is pointless. I believe people see god or a manifestation of divine consciousness clad in your gods clothes in appearance according to your beliefs when you have a near death experience, because that is what you need at that particular time for your development to be who you truly are and to accomplish what you are here to experience and learn from your unique perspective..

We are divine through consciousness, but the limitation that is individuality, which I praise, makes us unique. Which means there are no second chances you will only be your current self in this life, although it also is in a way eternal since everything exists simultaneously .. for when the veil is lifted and you will experience all simultaneously as part of the over soul, which is you. You will become more of yourself.

Consciousness create reality one frame at a time, different choices lead to different parallel realities. It is up to us to shift to the reality we truly prefer. I feel like sharing one of my favorite videos on Youtube here:
www.youtube.com...

We are not of the universe, the universe is of us. Eternity is not of us but we are of eternity. We cannot truly ever grasp the eternal and infinite for we are limited.

Originally posted by zayonara
reply to post by NorEaster

 

My first thoughts after reading the thread, before I even got to the observation piece, was that these electrons are flashing through "something" to get from the gun to the screen. They must be interacting with stuff along the way. Stuff that could change states, vibrate, bounce, tag along, cause diffractions....etc.

If that was so you would never get the same result consistently between having the which path info, and not having the which path info.

The results are consistent every time in both situations. If there were all sorts of other factors interfering this would not be possible.

These experiments are all peer reviewed, and I would expect that any issues like you bring here up would have been noted.

Agreed that there is something else at play here. Obviously, something we don't know. Imagine that for a second!

That's almost the same as saying nothing at all.

Why else would it matter what the experimenter knows? I have clearly shown that it does matter what the human knows in these experiments. Instead of saying nothing, why don't you respond directly to those claims and add something of substance?

reply to post by NorEaster

I think it's irresponsible to walk off on an anomalous indication and declare it to be the result of consciousness. That's like blaming God for stuff.

I think it is irresponsible to constantly ignore the points made based on the facts presented, and constantly adding irrelevant side issues and giving them your own twist.

Almost nothing you have said sofar actually adresses the factual information that was presented.

Even questioning the experiments and their results themselves, wich span across a century and have all been peer reviewed.

I can imagine one would question my conclusions, but don't expect me to believe you over the scientists and their findings this thread was based on, when you suggest these are flawed in principle.

The observation isn't active. It's viewed in retrospect after being recorded by camera on a data disk. That kind of nullifies the idea of direct human consciousness being involved too. The whole thing has issues. Maybe it's something to do with the camera rig?

Like this, Wth are you going on about? What exp. are you talking about? Not about any of which I based this thread on, that's for sure. You are just yappin'.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

Physicist Amit Goswami has proposed a novel interpretation and resolution to the various paradoxes of QM, which he calls "Monistic Idealism" meaning that consciousness, and not matter, is primary. In this case, the two things (observer and observed) are intertwined in a non-localized wave of probability until the choice is made, and the wave collapsed, the implication of which is that the choosing self is and must also be, a non-local phenomenon (distributed universally). In other words the experiment is occuring already within a field of consciousness. From this perspective alone are all the quantum paradoxes resolved with satisfaction.

Here he is being interviewed

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

I also recommend his books and writings.

This takes the "woo woo" out of it, while at the same time merging modern physics with ancient wisdom and spiritual tradition.

Not a very comfortable thing however, if you happen to be a materialist monist atheist, oh well, things change..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I would say give that man a beer, and don't forget yourself!

Thanks for posting, will check them out (soon).

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

You're welcome.

The problem with his "framework" is that it raises the question of how science can be done, since science measures parts of things and their causal relationships, as if they are separate things.

The implications of it, from what I can tell is this - there is nothing that is not, and from the something that is, there is no escape, just the possbility of transformation (and evolution).

This notion of an "all-inclusiveness" from which there is no escape, is a very interesting metaphysical quandry to grapple with, and if I might say so, a very amuzing one (although for reasons I can't really explain).

Cheers ("so be of good cheer, for it pleased your heavenly father (first/last cause, first father of creation/creator) to share his eternal kingdom with all his children"),


NAM

I've posted this elsewhere, but these two leading physicists views agree with what Goswami is saying about reality occuring through a downward causation ie: from a source or a first/last cause in eternity.

"The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249274834&sr=8-1

Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

an excerpt

If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...
If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the Godhead. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the Godhead selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...
Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something out of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound.

If the Absolute is the Godhead, and if creation is the process by which the Godhead filters out parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that Godhead - quite literally.

Next, by Ervin Laszlo

Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything, 2004
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-1

And, his other seminal work
Science and the Reenchantment of the Cosmos: The Rise of the Integral Vision of Reality
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-6

Ervin Laszlo is considered one of the foremost thinkers and scientists of our age, perhaps the greatest mind since Einstein. His principal focus of research involves the Zero Point Field. He is the author of around seventy five books (his works having been translated into at least seventeen languages), and he has contributed to over 400 papers. Widely considered the father of systems philosophy and general evolution theory, he has worked as an advisor to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in both 2004 and 2005. A multidisciplinarian, Laszlo has straddled numerous fields, having worked at universities as a professor of philosophy, music, futures studies, systems science, peace studies, and evolutionary studies. He was a sucessful concert pianist until he was thirty eight.

In his view, the zero-point field (or the Akashic Field, as he calls it) is quite literally the "mind of God".

Naming Hal Puthoff, Roger Penrose, Fritz-Albert Popp, and a handful of others as "front line investigators", Laszlo quotes Puthoff who says of the new scientific paradigm:

[What] would emerge would be an increased understanding that all of us are immersed, both as living and physical beings, in an overall interpenetrating and interdependant field in ecological balance with the cosmos as a whole, and that even the boundary lines between the physical and "metaphysical" would dissolve into a unitary viewpoint of the universe as a fluid, changing, energetic/informational cosmological unity."

an excert from Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything

Akasha (a . ka . sha) is a Sanskrit word meaning "ether": all-pervasive space. Originally signifying "radiation" or "brilliance", in Indian philosophy akasha was considered the first and most fundamental of the five elements - the others being vata (air), agni (fire), ap (water), and prithivi (earth). Akasha embraces the properties of all five elements: it is the womb from which everything we percieve with our senses has emerged and into which everything will ultimately re-descend. The Akashic Record (also called The Akashic Chronicle) is the enduring record of all that happens, and has ever happened, in space and time."

Laszlo's view of the history of the universe is of a series of universes that rise and fall, but are each "in-formed" by the existence of the previous one. In Laszlo's mind, the universe is becoming more and more in-formed, and within the physical universe, matter (which is the crystallization of intersecting pressure waves or an interference pattern moving through the zero-point field) is becoming increasing in-formed and evolving toward higher forms of consciousness and self-aware realization.

Thank God it finally happened.

You know, when we look at this occurance or "happening" of life and understand that it's intentional, and takes place within a non-localized, holographic framework, how can we help but laugh out loud at our predicament?

Taken a step further, and intuiting or what I like to call "grokking" that is it also framed within a type of "household" or family framework, we may find ourselves compelled to look deeply into our own "family of origin", and then at ourselves, and that's when the joke both begins again anew, and gets even funnier, as we come into the full field of awareness, namely of that which we are not, and what we're left with then is nothing but a child of God, there's nothing else to idenitfy with at this point except perhaps to love thy neighbor, as yourself..?!

I am convinced that when we get to the end of the beginning, and the beginning of a new one, or an omegapoint of novelty, we discover something of an unconditional nature in our own acceptance, of ourselves as we are, and there, where there's nothing left that we MUST do, the only thing that motivates, as a first/last cause is the love, the same love that already includes and accepts us, and reintegrates us, in a continual evolutionary process, in our case, an involution, that we might know ourselves as we are, which is the knowledge of truth.

I realize I'm getting carried away here, and maybe temporarily hijacking your thread, but I can't help but get excited about the implications of these inexorable conclusions that we are rationally forced to make no matter how counterintuitive they may be at first glance in accordance with our prior training or judged by everything we thouht we already knew..

It's amuzing!

So I thought I'd conclude this high-minded little diatribe with a post from another thread, which seems to explain what I'm trying to describe here fairly well.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by tgidkp

 

The is nothing stale about the jounrey of self discovery. It is what we are here for..

To OP the self aware universe by Amit Goswami I found very interesting and along similar lines with its own twists...

I use to rack my brain in all sorts of ways to suss life out. I no longer do so much because I dont think it can be understood with logic. I have started doing different types of mediation and these have opened different doors for me

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba

What really motivates and inspires us, what satisfies the human heart fully and completely, in the space of nothing that is everything already always..? Isn't that the ultimate question?

Only when we take What is left, when every "thing" (particularized attachments) is taken away - can a new creation be generated or founded, upon this realization for the human being, as to his true identity, being and becoming as he is, a reflection (like Christ, and as the moon is to the sun) of the first father and the true Lord of Love who originally inspired this in the first place (original intent of the will to share, and be creative, and therefore, PLAY), and who is pleased ALREADY (eternally unfolding present moment, forever, since our true self in God never dies) to share his eternal kingdom of light and love with ALL his children. In truth we stand, as self realized beings, in the "holy of holies", and there God calls us his own (well done my son.. [tears of joy by me!]) and makes his home WITH us, as the living spirit of truth and love, and therefore as the simplicity on the far side of complexity. Because it works out the "kink" or the flawZ, right across the entire breadth of all being and becoming, as a first/last cause, it's not only generative or evolutionary, as a first principal of spiritual and psychological growth and well being, but best of all, fun, and joyful, even humorous, and fearless, and therefore very powerful in the face of "evil", which must flee from it's presence wherever it moves, and as a "process" it (we) are already MOVING, and here's the real kicker - by it's very nature, it's the only thing that really moves us in the first place!

And so the mystery remains a mystery, and the dance goes on, into a much more enjoyable, and even amuzing, future, a freeman, maybe even dar I say it, an untouchable, set free in the truth which sets us free, but a freedom of such proportion, that it precludes the possibility of predation, by ANY power or principality, anywhere, and we already know that God is into sharing, and gathering, preserving all that is good, and has no interest in blind robbery, or "double bind" robbery, oh of course he has the power to do anything, but being a God of love, the only thing he binds and throws away, is that which makes no sense at all! Thus all our "foibles" and ridiculous notions, and utter absurdity, becomes the comedic material, of the joke of the ages!

Talk about the "watched pot never boils"!
I'm not sure if the "9" separate lines were made as they showed in the cartoon/movie were accurate and if it was I would speculate if that many lines were always made that it could be hypothesized there were only 9 strings or possibilities of separate time placements. This meaning only 9 different turn outs to each possible "way in the road". It's kind of hard for me to put into words what I'm thinking because this is blowing my mind actually!
I'm no scientist but I have an avid interest in string theory and other sciences, so forgive me if I sound stupid to the real scientists here!