God is not omnipotent

If God were omnipotent how would we possibly have freewill? With one party being omnipotent the other party would have to have no power or control and then how would God have made us in his image? If God is omnipotent then how could he juustify democracy when he is all powerfull and in control would he not then favor an aristocracy or a hierachy? Other input is greatly accepted.

An omnipotent god would of already known the outcome before creating beings in "their own image", he world of known the whole scenario from start to finish....and there would be no need for anyone to die and shed blood to save people...which makes no sense at all any way......he would be able to do anything he wanted to do...

Originally posted by Kaiser617
If God were omnipotent how would we possibly have freewill?

This, i beleive, is not a question ever answered by anyone. Anyway, if god is 'all-powerful', then why would it be bound by the rules of logic in the first place?

I agree that the very spiritually advanced being who initiated The Big Bang was neither omnipotent nor omniscient, just very highly evolved and on an extremely powerful dimension of energy within The Light on the Other Side.

Just as the Universe is not infinite, but very large, as a number of scientists have postulated, so too The Original Creator was not infinite -- but vast in scope and energy.

None of these concepts interfere with the Free Will that each of us has.

We are ultimately the arbiters of our destiny.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by Paul_Richard]

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A great and very logical question, Kaiser617. If i actually exist, he/she/it can not be omnipotent.

Now if a God gave someone free will why would they ask you to surrender it back?

These are a couple of the questions that stop a logical person from going gaga at the idea of 'God'.
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Originally posted by Kaiser617
If God were omnipotent how would we possibly have freewill?

God knows every choice we will ever face. He sees all our options. He sees beyond our options to the consequences of our choices. He sees new choices appear before us. He sees all our options. He knows the consequences of each. He sees every new choice which results. And so on...

An infinite web of diverging paths, arising from the smallest, most inconsequential decisions.

He can see every possibility.

But we can make only one path through the web and each choice we make eliminates other paths from ever being open to us.

But we are always choosing. This is freewill. And this is why he lets us make our own choices - to see which unique path we decide on.

Atleast, I think so..

Originally posted by Kaiser617
If God were omnipotent how would we possibly have freewill? If God is omnipotent then how could he juustify democracy when he is all powerfull and in control would he not then favor an aristocracy or a hierachy?

God is omnipotent.
He gave freewill to humans and now just watches. When the world will be over his son Jesus will come down and punish the sinners, taking the good guys with him to the Paradise. The mid guys will be sent to Purgatory.
You should read Dante Alighieri's "God-like Comedy"

When did the Divine Comedy become cannon?

Who says we have free-will? How do you know you aren't doing exactly what you are supposed to?

Perhaps, we are all just following a very elaborate script. Like a cosmic reality show in which reality is unreal.

I actually have read Dante's Inferno, I thought it was a preety good book great use of symbolism though I never got around to reading the rest of the trilogy of Dante but hopefully i'll read it sometime soon i agree with Dante on how each of our sins should corespond with our penalty in a way

God is obnipitant, he just wants us to have free will so that the love receive from his children is more genuine. What better way to get love than to have it giving to you freely not by forcing atomitons to not think and getting their love in his mind he would know not true love but mindless involentary action is the basis of the love, I would not like it unless it was a true expression of love.

The point that some people are glossing over is that there is an inherent logical contradiction. If a creator god knows in advance what is going to happen, and it can't be changed, then there isn't any free will, you aren't making your own decisions, the actions have been planned out before you made them. But you are supposed to have free will. So there is a contradiction.

I think that its not terribly important tho, because, logically, it doesn't make sense, its not rational, and its contradictory, but, in a metaphysical/supernatural world, there wouldn't be any problem with logical contradictions. In the natural realm, you can't have a square circle, but in the supernatural one, you can.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The point that some people are glossing over is that there is an inherent logical contradiction. If a creator god knows in advance what is going to happen, and it can't be changed, then there isn't any free will, you aren't making your own decisions, the actions have been planned out before you made them. But you are supposed to have free will. So there is a contradiction.

I think that its not terribly important tho, because, logically, it doesn't make sense, its not rational, and its contradictory, but, in a metaphysical/supernatural world, there wouldn't be any problem with logical contradictions. In the natural realm, you can't have a square circle, but in the supernatural one, you can.

An omnipotent being knowing the future does not necesarily demonstrate the absence of freewill. It merely means that the being knows what would happen in advance, not that this being wrote it like a script.

post deleted by stingasong_

[edit on 29-9-2004 by Jimi Hendrix]

And there are many answers that I come up with but the one that stands out most of all the discussions about it and all is that. God is onipotent maybe they are talking about the earth being the only place left in the universe to be able to support life maybe one time this was a HUGE THRIVING GALAXIE. And the people left the bible as a Map or key to figure out things like don't eat Catfish .. back in the day catfish ate all the crap of the other fishes and still eat off the bottom of the lake. Hence getting diaseases getting you sick. ANd what about everything else. Tha thte bible sais. THINK !!!!

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
God is obnipitant, he just wants us to have free will so that the love receive from his children is more genuine. What better way to get love than to have it giving to you freely not by forcing atomitons to not think and getting their love in his mind he would know not true love but mindless involentary action is the basis of the love, I would not like it unless it was a true expression of love.

Aside from what Nygden said about the natural and supernatural realms, what you said, drbryankkruta, drives me mad whenever I hear people talk like that.

Clearly you can't bend your mind around what omnipotence is in full. Omnipotence means that there is nothing, nothing that escapes the one who is omnipotent. This means that "a true expression of love" or some half-ass "help me with this test oh God" love is all in the same to one who is omnipotent; because it is nothing new. You are holding "God" up as an omnipotent being and then comparing him to a mom who needs to recieve "genuine" and "involuntary love" to feel that she is really appreciated. If "God" is omnipotent then there is no reason for us, or anything for that matter, to exist besides his being.

This is where I get annoyed with people reciting what their sunday school teacher taught them growing up. If you really look at it, in the natural realm, what I have said makes sense (if one can look past their predisposed religious blindness).

I don't mean to sound as angry as I might, but contradictary rebuttles, such as this, to the omnipotence debate have bothered me for a long time.

If you don't mind drbryankkruta, I would be more than happy to discuss this topic via U2U.

[edit on 30-9-2004 by Howard the Dolphin]

God IS omnipotent. He does good thinks. There is an atheist in the world and doesn't want to believe in God. A bad situation will occur that will make his life difficult. That's a sudden BANG! from a pipe. Such shock can convert a man back to Christianity. And that's the kind of angel or beloved God is.

From my point of view, god is not omnipotent because he like any other entity has his limits. For example, if god was omnipotent, could he make a stone that he couldn`t lift? The answer is no. He couldn`t be all-powerful if there was a stone he couldn`t lift, or have the inability to create that large of a stone. If god exists, his power must have a plateau.

Although, I agree God is not omnipotent, but I think that the world "omnipotent" can be misleading as well as used as an exaggeration.
Nygdan makes a good point, but I think that God based the universe on the rules on logic to keep a sort of balance in the universe. If he had given us free will and similar power to him, there would be a power struggle.

This is what I believe, so take it for what it is worth.

We simply cannot attempt to comprehend a divine being with our crude logic. Go d is an omnipitant, all-powerful being, and no amount of reason (and very poor reason at that) can decipher his existance.

He gives us agency so that we may choose to serve him. The only thing that we as humans have to ourselves is our agency. God created everything else, and by all rights it all belongs to him. Our bodies arer his, our minds are his, but our will is not. That makes it all the more meaningful to him when we sacrifice our will to his by obeying him.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The point that some people are glossing over is that there is an inherent logical contradiction. If a creator god knows in advance what is going to happen, and it can't be changed, then there isn't any free will, you aren't making your own decisions, the actions have been planned out before you made them. But you are supposed to have free will. So there is a contradiction.

I think that its not terribly important tho, because, logically, it doesn't make sense, its not rational, and its contradictory, but, in a metaphysical/supernatural world, there wouldn't be any problem with logical contradictions. In the natural realm, you can't have a square circle, but in the supernatural one, you can.

I disagree I yes acknoledge that the stage is set but not the players while yes God knows some will join him in Eden he also knows some will not and since that is our choice our lives are not predermined but mearly the events around us. What point would there be in creating a creature for you to receive its love and admiration both of which are unique to the free will of the spirit and cant be immulated by a mindless robot for example your computer can be taught to tell you it loves you but were is the love not in the computer for the computer has no grasp of its actions just perameters that you put into it to make it do what you want.