ANZAC Day in Australia - "Lest we Forget"

A public holiday tomorrow, 25th April, where the nation gathers at Dawn Services all over Australia to remember those who fell in World War 1 and in particular at Gallipoli and those who served in the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. A minutes silence will prevail to the haunting sound of "The Last Post".
Marches are prevalent through most towns and cities as relatives of those who fell and/or served proudly wear their medals.
I do not know the origin of this photo which was sent to me this morning by an ex 'Nasho' friend of mine living in England but I found it to be quite poignant:



"Lest we Forget"

Wonderful post.

And on trees, most Australian towns of note planted a tree in the main street for each soldier that fell.
There are lots of trees, testament to the horrific loss for TPTB.

Percentage wise, I think Australia faired worst of any nation. the flower of youth, cut down. And for what?
God bless all of them, on any side.

The wonderful words of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, brave Turkish general at Gallipolli, and subsequent President of Turkey are always apt:

“Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives!
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.

You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.”

Beautiful.
RIP.

Originally posted by OzTiger

If anything, that is a monument to the futility, stupidity and wastefulness of war. I'd rather forget how violent and careless humans can be. My grandfather died in the first world war, he left my mother when she was only 2 years old and never returned. I don't celebrate mass death and needless slaughtering. I condemn it and ridicule it for what it really is.

Down the close, darkening lanes they sang their way
To the siding-shed,
And lined the train with faces grimly gay.

Their breasts were stuck all white with wreath and spray
As men's are, dead.

Dull porters watched them, and a casual tramp
Stood staring hard,
Sorry to miss them from the upland camp.
Then, unmoved, signals nodded, and a lamp
Winked to the guard.

So secretly, like wrongs hushed-up, they went.
They were not ours:
We never heard to which front these were sent.

Nor there if they yet mock what women meant
Who gave them flowers.

Shall they return to beatings of great bells
In wild trainloads?
A few, a few, too few for drums and yells,
May creep back, silent, to still village wells
Up half-known roads.

~ Wilfred Owen

If anything, that is a monument to the futility, stupidity and wastefulness of war. I'd rather forget how violent and careless humans can be. My grandfather died in the first world war, he left my mother when she was only 2 years old and never returned. I don't celebrate mass death and needless slaughtering. I condemn it and ridicule it for what it really is.



Yeah, but you can separate the ordinary people that fell from TPTB that supported each side and made fortunes.

And those that forget history are condemned to repeat it.

reply to post by bulldetector

Yeah, but you can separate the ordinary people that fell from TPTB that supported each side and made fortunes.

I said nothing about "TPTB". I do not respect anyone who makes themselves available as a tool of death for any Government. But then again, there were periods of conscription where people were forced to go to war, and in those cases I feel sorry for the people who were forced to kill and be killed against their wishes. I'm simply saying I have no empathy for the entire concept of war. If anything I would rather have a special day for EVERYONE who died at war, not only men from Australia.

And those that forget history are condemned to repeat it.

Perhaps if ANZAC day way actually about remembering the futility of war I would take part in it. But it isn't. It's a day which actually supports and romanticizes the mistakes of history.

Those who continue to believe in false truths are condemned to repeat the mistakes of history.

God I hope your not Australian.
When I and many others get up before dawn tomorrow and make our way down to the services it will not be for any of the reasons you posted "the futility, stupidity and wastefulness of war" it will be to give thanks and honour to those who either gave or were willing to give everything for us yet asked nothing in return except that we remember and never forget WHY they did this.
So please just don't go there, because either you are not an Aussie or Kiwi or you need to hang your head in great shame for our country is not one of war and is not in the habit of celebrating such things. We are how ever proud of those who served us and they way they did it. ie with courage honor & dignity the likes all soldiers should strive to emulate.
Anzacs have and continue to be some of the best in the world in terms of courage, skill, tenacity and values this is something we can all be proud of.
Like wise when I return to have my daughters march at 10am it will be to show that the torch has been passed to the next generation and that they understand the very things you stated, but also to show that we might not be a nation of 100's of millions but we know how to take care of our own and we will never let what they did for us be something to forget or be ashamed of.
On a personal note maybe your grandfather made such a sacrifice so that your mother wouldn't have to suffer rape or be murdered or enslaved in her own country.
Peace and respect to all people especially those who laid down their lives so that we might live.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
LEST WE FORGET

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by bulldetector

 

Yeah, but you can separate the ordinary people that fell from TPTB that supported each side and made fortunes.

I said nothing about "TPTB". I do not respect anyone who makes themselves available as a tool of death for any Government. But then again, there were periods of conscription where people were forced to go to war, and in those cases I feel sorry for the people who were forced to kill and be killed against their wishes. I'm simply saying I have no empathy for the entire concept of war. If anything I would rather have a special day for EVERYONE who died at war, not only men from Australia.

And those that forget history are condemned to repeat it.

Perhaps if ANZAC day way actually about remembering the futility of war I would take part in it. But it isn't. It's a day which actually supports and romanticizes the mistakes of history.

Those who continue to believe in false truths are condemned to repeat the mistakes of history.

I think you have a lot of growing up to do.

You are looking at history through a pair of 2012 lens.
The men and women that fell should not be derided. How dare you.

And the day encompasses all that fell, read Ataturk's words above.
The day isn't about you, its about them.

reply to post by WorkingClassMan

God I hope your not Australian.

Of course I am, or I wouldn't have said what I said.

it will be to give thanks and honour to those who either gave or were willing to give everything for us yet asked nothing in return except that we remember and never forget WHY they did this.

Why they did it? Same reason as the foreign armies fought. Their leaders told them there was a threat and propagandized the young male population into fighting. No one really wants to kill or be killed, they are manipulated into doing it. If all the citizens of each country refused to fight the Government wouldn't have the human resources they need fight mass scale wars. All the wasted resources of world war I and II could have provided for every single human need on the planet. Even after all these wars all the major nations involved haven't been taken over by a foreign land. We actually sent forces overseas to help England, once again kissing up to their asses like good little slaves of the Royal Monarchy.

We are how ever proud of those who served us and they way they did it. ie with courage honor & dignity the likes all soldiers should strive to emulate.

What about all those people who refused to fight on moral grounds and were sent to prison or killed? There is no honor & dignity in murder. Do you congratulate children after they have a fight, or do you tell them to grow up and learn to settle their differences like mature adults?

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
LEST WE FORGET

The author of that poem wasn't even a solider of the first world war, the poem I quoted was written by a soldier of WWI. It's different when you aren't actually in the middle of it.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Chaotic order.

without those wars we would not have the country we have.

maybe this is what you forget

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

maybe this is what you forget

Maybe that is what you are told to believe.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


What ever your belief system is can not change the past. Nor will it change the fact that men and women died in a war.

They are the facts.

Maybe your belief system may assist in preventing the past from happening again.

reply to post by magma

What ever your belief system is can not change the past. Nor will it change the fact that men and women died in a war.

Where have I disputed those facts? Thousands of malnourished children die every single day in 3rd world countries. Where are the special days for those lost souls? Where are the special days for all the foreigners who died in the wars? Just because I was born in Australia does not make me think Australians are special, it does not make me think Australia is the best country in the world. I could have been born anywhere else, and I'd probably be having these exact same argument with my fellow citizens. We are all so blinded by our national pride, we fail to look outside of this little box we have confined ourselves to and realize that we are simply all human being sharing this planet. Wars don't protect anything... how is the death of MILLIONS of people PROTECTION? Doesn't that seems a bit contradictory to you? Unfathomable mass death and destruction is some how "beneficial"? These are illogical delusions. You want to remember their deaths... fine. You want to support what they did... wrong.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by WorkingClassMan

 

God I hope your not Australian.

Of course I am, or I wouldn't have said what I said.

it will be to give thanks and honour to those who either gave or were willing to give everything for us yet asked nothing in return except that we remember and never forget WHY they did this.

Why they did it? Same reason as the foreign armies fought. Their leaders told them there was a threat and propagandized the young male population into fighting. No one really wants to kill or be killed, they are manipulated into doing it. If all the citizens of each country refused to fight the Government wouldn't have the human resources they need fight mass scale wars. All the wasted resources of world war I and II could have provided for every single human need on the planet. Even after all these wars all the major nations involved haven't been taken over by a foreign land. We actually sent forces overseas to help England, once again kissing up to their asses like good little slaves of the Royal Monarchy.

We are how ever proud of those who served us and they way they did it. ie with courage honor & dignity the likes all soldiers should strive to emulate.

What about all those people who refused to fight on moral grounds and were sent to prison or killed? There is no honor & dignity in murder. Do you congratulate children after they have a fight, or do you tell them to grow up and learnt to settle their differences like mature adults?

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
LEST WE FORGET

The author of that poem wasn't even written by a solider of the first world war, the poem I quoted was. It's different when you aren't actually in the middle of it.

I don't know how to multi quote here sorry best I can do.

You say that like no outsider has ever belittled our country sorry I assume nothing you shouldn't either.

No we did not fight for the same reason foreign armies did, we fought depending on which war you want to talk about, because.
A- We had a duty to the mother land of which we were a colony, and who through no fault of their own was in dire peril, of course we sent forces forces to help England they were in many cases our family and like it or not she is our Queen which meant a hell of a lot more then than now.
B- Because the wolves were howling at our door and failure to act meant a life the likes you can't imagine.

Show me the ones who refused to fight on moral grounds in 1914 are you sure that's the reason they didn't go cause they were aware of TPTB trying to manipulate them I think not.
"There is no honor & dignity in murder" That is true but there is no murder in defending your country or that of your family and to do so in the face of impossible odds to me means courage and honor & to do it in the way ANZACS have done to me is with dignity.

when 2 children have a disagreement I would take your road, but when I see 50 kids beating up 1 kid and another kid walks up and says hay stop that or I will have to come to his defense for I am my brothers keeper then no matter what the out come that kid gets remembered as a hero and if he is lucky enough to survive gets free ice cream forever.

I see your point in a perfect world but this never has been and unfortunately probably never will be 1. If all the good guys throw down their guns and say peace lets not feed the war pigs what happens when the bad guys don't and take advantage of your ignorance.
Answer in this scenario we are all speaking Japanese and watching our mothers and daughters get raped while we work to death in the fields.

I'm not hating on you and wish nothing but peace & love in your life but tomorrow go down to the RSL and speak to whats left of these old men they can enlighten you more than I ever could and I can guarantee you won't find one who offered his life for the reasons you believe.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


I get where you're coming from, I too have wondered, why is the Anzac parade like a celebration and not a mourning of the unnecessary lives lost.
In all wars, the ordinary folk are the ones used as canon fodder while the dictators sit in their armchairs. They free themselves but enslave the people.
I wonder what message kids receive from these parades....... learn from history or repeat it?

RIP

reply to post by WorkingClassMan

If all the good guys throw down their guns and say peace lets not feed the war pigs what happens when the bad guys don't and take advantage of your ignorance.
Answer in this scenario we are all speaking Japanese and watching our mothers and daughters get raped while we work to death in the fields.

All speaking Japanese and our mothers and daughters being raped? Haha. Seriously, you are so entrenched in Government propaganda. Have you ever seriously taken to the time to understand Japanese culture? Their society is grounded in morality much more than most English speaking western world counties. Your fear of these countries is exactly like the fear of terrorists. You think the big bad boogie man is coming to get you. You generalize the population of entire nations into extremists and evil souls who wish to steal your freedoms and rape your children. It's just sad you can't see past these delusions. The truly bad guys are the ones in control. Generally speaking most foreigners have no desire to steal your land and rape your children, they are human just like you. The underlying reason for war is oil and other monetary motivations. They mask it with the types of lies you are perpetuating to justify mass death and destruction as if it were needed.

I'm an American but I can share both points of view about ANZAC day, I understand those who wish to honor the sacrifices made by so many young men (and their families) as well as those who wish war were to never touch the lives of anyone.
Both causes are right.
Some will blame Churchill for the slaughter but actually it was the field command that screwed up by not taking the hills above the beaches to deny the position to the Turks. The Turks then took the hills and were firing down on all the Commonwealth soldiers. One of history's fateful screw-ups.
Don't be too hard on each other especially since you're all Oz and Kiwis who fought as hard and as bravely as any lads could.
Cheers for the Anzacs.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by WorkingClassMan

 

If all the good guys throw down their guns and say peace lets not feed the war pigs what happens when the bad guys don't and take advantage of your ignorance.
Answer in this scenario we are all speaking Japanese and watching our mothers and daughters get raped while we work to death in the fields.

All speaking Japanese and our mothers and daughters being raped? Haha. Seriously, you are so entrenched in Government propaganda. Have you ever seriously taken to the time to understand Japanese culture? Their society is grounded in morality much more than most English speaking western world counties. Your fear of these countries is exactly like the fear of terrorists. You think the big bad boogie man is coming to get you. You generalize the population of entire nations into extremists and evil souls who wish to steal your freedoms and rape your children. It's just sad you can't see past these delusions. The truly bad guys are the ones in control. Generally speaking most foreigners have no desire to steal your land and rape your children, they are human just like you. The underlying reason for war is oil and other monetary motivations. They mask it with the types of lies you are perpetuating to justify mass death and destruction as if it were needed.

edit on 24-4-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

I understand where your position is and respect your right to voice your opinion. The first world war was supposed to be 'the war that ended all wars' but it wasn't to be. You mock other posters referring to the Japanese and what might have happened had they had been victorious in the second world war. They were a 'warrior' culture during that time as you will discover if you google "The Rape of Nanking". Today, that warrior culture has gone and you will find that the Japanese are incredibly polite people should you ever visit their Country. They are also the only Country who have apologized for the atrocities their forefathers committed and have also compensated many who suffered at their hands. Here in Australia we have made our peace and learned to accept their culture and have many trade agreements with them.
ANZAC day is a way of paying respects for those who perished and not to glorify war.
When I did my 'Nasho's' in the fifties there were many of the Officers and NCO's who had fought in the second world war and none of them ever talked about it. They would only say that it mustn't happen again.
Let us all hope that it doesn't.

reply to post by OzTiger


Fair enough, those are legitimate points and I respect your calm response to my taking your thread off track. I was expecting you to return here and flame the hell out of me. Thanks for understanding the points I was making and responding in a civilized manner.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by OzTiger

 

Fair enough, those are legitimate points and I respect your calm response to my taking your thread off track. I was expecting you to return here and flame the hell out of me. Thanks for understanding the points I was making and responding in a civilized manner.

You are most welcome.
There are no winners in war. The Rape of Nanking, The Holocaust, Hiroshima and the Bombing of Dresden are shameful examples of man's inhumanity to man. We have survived. Hiroshima is rebuilt, Germany has recovered. The United Nations have 'steadied the boat' on many occasions but we now have the fear of terrorism throughout the world.
Will we ever learn to accept each others beliefs and live peacefully with each other without encroaching into the parameters of each others cultures?
We can only hope.