The One Sided Nature of Jewish and Christian Dialog

By which I mean, the Jewish side stands firm and the Christians do all the bending and conciliating. Jewish-Christian Relations groups and organizations seem to exist for the sole purpose of allowing Judaism and the so-called Jewish State of Israel to dictate to Christians what their doctrine should be and what their political positions should be.

I first got interested in this phenomenon when I ran across the Statement of LEKKJ (LUTHERAN EUROPEAN COMMISSION ON THE CHURCH AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE) regarding the "Kairos Palestine Declaration".

To this portion of the declaration:

Kairos Palestine Document Full Text Bethlehem, December 11, 2009

2.2.2 Our Lord Jesus Christ came, proclaiming that the Kingdom of God was near. He provoked a revolution in the life and faith of all humanity. He came with “a new teaching” (Mk 1:27), casting a new light on the Old Testament, on the themes that relate to our Christian faith and our daily lives, themes such as the promises, the election, the people of God and the land. We believe that the Word of God is a living Word, casting a particular light on each period of history, manifesting to Christian believers what God is saying to us here and now. For this reason, it is unacceptable to transform the Word of God into letters of stone that pervert the love of God and His providence in the life of both peoples and individuals. This is precisely the error in fundamentalist Biblical interpretation that brings us death and destruction when the word of God is petrified and transmitted from generation to generation as a dead letter. This dead letter is used as a weapon in our present history in order to deprive us of our rights in our own land. Our land has a universal mission.

The response was:

LEKKJ is striving to advance and enhance Jewish-Christian dialogue, and has a well documented record of combating anti-Judaism anti-Semitism for many decades. We are therefore both saddened and perturbed to find anti-Jewish patterns of thought, such as the presentation of “the new teaching of Jesus” in contrast to “the dead letter in stone“ „that is used as a weapon in our present history in order to deprive us of our rights in our own land.“ (2.2.2) This contrast-pattern is an expression of anti-Jewish language.

Adopted at its meeting in Budapest June, 10-13, 2010

Due to Christian-Jewish dialog, the European Lutherans have not only thrown out Martin Luther's "anti-Semitic" writings, they now seem content to throw out the Apostle Paul also, since he is the author of the "dead letter" and "letters on stone" descriptives in 2 Corinthians chapter 3.

If you are truly interested in this erosion of Christianity you should compare closely the Kairos Declaration and the response to it. Then ask yourself which reads as the more Christian of the two. For further study, read the Statement by the Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations Rethinking Christian Faith in Relation to Judaism and the Jewish People Sept. 1, 2002.

As a segue into the next portion of this post, I mention 7. Christians should not target Jews for conversion of the 10 recommendations issued by the above mentioned Christian Scholars Group.

Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, founder and president of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, gave an interview with Zev Chafets for the July 24, 2005 edition of New York Times Magazine. Here's a bit of the end.

The newest staff member at the meeting was Sandy Rios, who was hired a couple of days earlier as vice president for programming. Rios, a former talk-show host in Chicago, had come from Washington, where she served as president of Concerned Women for America, a conservative family-issues group....

Throughout this conversation, Rios was clearly eager to join in. And as soon as there was a pause in the discussion, she did. "You know," she said, "the truth is, Christians do want to convert Jews."

Eckstein and Mamo exchanged glances. "Not by some bait-and-switch trick," she said. "But we believe it's part of God's plan." Eckstein winced the way he had when Pastor Munsey called him a born-again Christian.

"Anyway," Rios said, "we love Jews, notwithstanding their rudeness and hatred for us."

Three days later, Eckstein called me in New York. Rios had been fired, but her gaffe, and the impression it made, was still on his mind. "It's really my fault," he said. "Hiring staff is a problem. Truthfully, it's extremely hard to find people who understand exactly what we're doing here."
The Rabbi Who Loved Evangelicals (and Vice Versa)

What they, the interfaith dialoguers are doing here, is the subject of this thread.

The mission of The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews is clearly stated in their mission statement:

founded in 1983 to promote understanding and cooperation between Jews and Christians and to build broad support for Israel and other shared concerns.... We have helped hundreds of thousands of Jews escape poverty and anti-Semitism and return to their biblical homeland, funded humanitarian assistance that has touched the lives of millions of Jews in Israel and around the world, provided life-giving aid to Israel’s victims of war and terror, and much more.
www.ifcj.org...

So the benefits are one way: to Jewish immigration to Israel and to other Jewish concerns. Contributions for 2010 amounted to $96,424,433.

as we are a grant-making group with a focus on philanthropy.” Among the organizations that receive funding from the IFCJ are the Jewish Agency[for Jewish immigration and settlement], Nefesh B'Nefesh[another immigration and settlement], ORT, Chabad-Lubavitch and the Israel Defense Forces. At the recent Friends of the Israel Defense Forces gala dinner in Manhattan, Rabbi Eckstein outdid his peers, donating $9.25 million in support of the multi-faceted programs aimed at helping Israeli soldiers.
www.ifcj.org...

All this hyperactivity is financed by the contributions of evangelical Christians. In the last eight years alone, an estimated 400,000 born-again donors have sent Eckstein about a quarter of a billion dollars for Jewish causes of his personal choosing.
www.nytimes.com...

The benefit to the Evangelicals seems to be: in addition to tax free donations going to agencies very closely tied to a foreign state, they get to thank the Rabbi for accepting their donations "as a blessing to Israel", [note the substitution of Israel here for the actual reference to Abraham in Gen.12:3], for which they expect to be blessed.

Christians will comply to what their jewish overlords tell them because they have this weird infatuation with jews and Israel.

For starters, christians believe that the christ-rejecting Jews are "the chosen".... and that modern Israel, established by irreligious people, is the restored biblical Israel....and that everything jews do in Israel is divinely ordained... or is part of "unfolding prophecy".

It doesn't matter if jews today spit on the face of Jesus and call him a "false prophet" or call his mother a "harlot"...christians will still support the jews.

It doesn't matter if muslims punctuate every mention of Jesus and Mary with "Peace be upon them", Christians will see muslims as anti-christian.

As a Christian I dont give a toss what a few Lutherans are saying, I am not interested in the theology of the Jews in relation to the NT either.
They cant dictate Christianity with any authority and it seems its only a minority Christian movement who accept this teaching.
No biggy.

pthena

the rabbithole is *so* much more deep

there has been doctered so much with original scripture, that is, sorcery within the words, ( = the adding of wrong vowels, on purpose) which is pure quabbalism, that THAT is a main reason that 'scripture remains dead '.
In this light, ofcóurse those dont want that 'scripture changes '. It may come alive - when believers would discover there s tampered with it !

'yah '? egyptian moongod
'shu ' ? egyptian pastordeity, with the same attributes
etc

also see eiue research com

reply to post by borntowatch


i disagree
its true that a minority is actively supporting this; however, the majority , who havent pondered the subject through, are deluded into accepting the same, because of the one-liners and easy-swallowable falsness of that teaching.
What means that the overall result is, that the majority of christians accept the falseness, - either consciously or subconsciously.

when a person is 'accepting ' something, then his soul is ' agreeing with ', or 'adding spiritual energy to it ',
- and that is the *only* thing what matters to sata* .

It doesnt matter when, perhaps once, that soul will see how he s been tricked with false-onliners, misquoted scripture, half context, or any other trick: sata* will only respond ' then you should ve known better '.
Such is the spiritual law.

..most christians have no idea how to refute that false theory - because its base is in 'emotional and spiritual blackmail ' - and thats why they , subconsciously, accépt that vieuw to be true . Unfortunately , i see it everywhere. It *sounds* oh so righteous - but its direct out of the Pit

It's because Jews seem to know who they are. Most Christians still follow the Jesus the disciples followed that called themselves servants, when they should be following the risen Christ who calls his followers brothers.

Is it any wonder Christians are confused when Jews are not when they do not even know who they are.

reply to post by pthena


last time I checked

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

what makes anyone believe they would think different? to this day the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah..

step out of line and you get the anti semite B$..

Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities along the Rhine in Germany..

Semitic : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic..

Hell most people do not even know that there are 12 other tribes besides the Judah one (ie Jew)

The 13 tribes are listed in Numbers 1 starting in verse 20; and are:
Reuben
Simeon
Gad
Judah
Issachar
Zebulun
Ephraim
Manasseh
Benjamin
Dan
Asher
Naphtali

and then Levi (verse 47) they were the Priests..
if they would suppress there own lineage of other tribes..
of course their going to manipulate the Goy who follow the guy their ancestors had killed..
this does not surprise me at all considering who they are and what they believe..

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene': 1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a). 2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a). 3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

What is the true key to salvation? Those who return to the Law (the Seven Commandments for the Children of Noah, according to the eternal covenant made with Noah in Genesis 9) and who assist the Jewish people (Isaiah 60, 61, 66) will be saved and will participate in the miracles and revelations, including worshipping in the Third Temple, under the kingship of the Messiah. As described in many places, including Jeremiah 16:19-21 and Zechariah 8:20-23, all the old gentile religions of the world will disappear, and their followers will turn to the Jews for spiritual leadership. Until then, Christians are spiritually blinded, and cannot yet understand G-d's wisdom in the Bible.

source

Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.

To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Libbre David 37

A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.
Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17

If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.
Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

Extermination of the Christians is a necessary sacrifice.
Zohar, Shemoth

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat.
Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348

A boy-goy after nine years and one day old, and a girl after three years and one day old, are considered filthy.
Pereferkowicz, Talmud t.v., p. 11

Jesus put it most directly: Rabbinic Judaism is the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev 3:9)-the church that Satan goes to, the religion he inspired and owns.

I'm not religious and as far as I am concerned both Jewish and Christian faith are mistaken in their general approach to reality.

But leaving that aside for a moment, it's quite obvious to me as a disinterested observer that a lot of money has been flowing into Christianity from pro-Zionist sources. Particularly people like John Haggee, who can't open his mouth without mentioning the Jews or Israel or how speshul and chosen they are. It's obviously a propaganda campaign designed to assist Israel through the creation of so-called "Christian Zionism." How long before Christians stop talking about Christ and start worshiping the "chosen ones" instead?

I apologize ahead of time for my slowness in responding to reader comments.

I've read the comments so far and really do want to address the issues raised. I'm not good at multi-tasking. I find myself either thinking, reading, or writing. Trying to do 2 of the listed activities at the same time is beyond my abilities. I will ever so slowly, get to replies.

Having said that, I will reply to this post first. Never fear, I will read back and get to other replies as needed.

reply to post by Leftist

as a disinterested observer that a lot of money has been flowing into Christianity from pro-Zionist sources. Particularly people like John Haggee, who can't open his mouth without mentioning the Jews or Israel or how speshul and chosen they are. It's obviously a propaganda campaign designed to assist Israel through the creation of so-called "Christian Zionism." How long before Christians stop talking about Christ and start worshiping the "chosen ones" instead?

That's exactly the trend I see. Hagee's organization takes a very non-critical view of the current state of Israel. The home page of Christians United for Israel has this pledge:

We believe that the Jewish people have a right to live in their ancient land of Israel, and that the modern State of Israel is the fulfillment of this historic right.
Israel Pledge

So no matter how, historically, this State of Israel came to be on previously inhabited land, the push is for people to accept it as "fulfillment". I find that morality and ethics are corroded in the process. This is witnessed by the programmed response to a statement of grievances by Palestinian Christians asking for recognition of basic human rights and dignities. (Kairos Document). Basic human rights and justice get shuffled aside for the sake of "the new pro-Israel paradigm".

It isn't only Evangelical Christians, it's main stream Protestants also, through the liberal idea that "anti-Semitism" is to be forever taboo. But that ignores the basic dignity of Semitic Palestinians, be they Arabs or be they descendants of actual 1st century Judean's who accepted Jesus as their Messiah, and hence are Christian Palestinians.

Justice and ethics don't seem to stand a chance against the concerted efforts of those who hold Jewishness as somehow superior to or more privileged than humanness alone entitles one to be.

reply to post by reeferman

Thanks for reminding me of the Noahide website. I was under the impression that nobody was updating it.

Ours is the last generation of the era of sin and evil and the first of the Messianic Era. Indeed, for the first time in history, there is a growing consensus of leading rabbis willing to name the man most suited to be the Messiah, and they are agreeing that he is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The Rebbe is the spiritual leader of our generation, having boldly stirred up controversy over vital issues in which other leaders have remained tragically silent or have even caved in to the growing forces of darkness. He has upheld the Law perfectly and has worked mightily to strengthen the observance of the Law by Jews, as well as the observance of the Noachide Law by gentiles. Through his teaching of chasidus (Jewish mystical teachings, preserved from Moses and Mount Sinai), he has taught the world that G-d is One, the Infinite Who renews creation at every moment. The Rebbe is a direct descendant of King David and has received a true prophecy from G-d that we who are alive in this generation shall be the first in history to see the coming of the true messiah. Many Jews are eagerly anticipating the Rebbe's resurrection from the grave, ready to re-establish the Sanhedrin and anoint the king.
www.noahide.com...

This paragraph is very important to this discussion. A very large portion of the money that Christians hand over to The International Fellowship Of Christians and Jews goes to Chabad-Lubavitch, primarily an educational program geared toward teaching Jews worldwide to value Torah, Talmud, and Kabbalah. And secondarily to honor Rebbe Schneerson, who died in 1994, who heavily pushed for worldwide establishment of the so-called Noahic laws for Gentiles, on account of it's against Talmud for a Jew to teach Torah to a Gentile.

Chabad-Lubavitch[1] is a Chasidic movement in Orthodox Judaism. One of the world's larger and best-known Chasidic movements, its official headquarters is in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, New York. The organization is believed to be the largest Jewish organization in the world today.
en.wikipedia.org...

Eckstein, sitting nearby, visibly blanched. For decades, Orthodox critics have accused him of being a closet Christian. He told me that a few years ago four senior rabbis convened a court in New York to try him for the crime of ''teaching Torah to gentiles.'' He was acquitted in a split decision, but he recalls it as one of the most humiliating moments of his life.
nytimes story

The irony seems to know no bounds. Christians funding what seems to be a very great insult against them, their Lord, and their religion, for Worldwide distribution.

Originally posted by Lone12
pthena

the rabbithole is *so* much more deep

seems you are scrambling down it at break neck speed.

there has been doctered so much with original scripture, that is, sorcery within the words, ( = the adding of wrong vowels, on purpose) which is pure quabbalism, that THAT is a main reason that 'scripture remains dead '.

are you talking about the sacred name and adonai , or what? because they thought YHWH was sacred so said adonai instead.

In this light, ofcóurse those dont want that 'scripture changes '. It may come alive - when believers would discover there s tampered with it !

proof that it has been tampered with please, as much as the editor of the torah did to piece it all together, our oldest sources appear to not have changed much except in the name of god, ie: going from EL to adonai.

' yah '? egyptian moongod

you would be wrong, yah is a war/storm god of the early canaanites the israelites stem from, they adopted him around the 12th century bce

' shu ' ? egyptian pastordeity, with the same attributes
etc

uh no, shu was an air god, not a "pastor" deity whatever that is, he was an air god who held up the sky.

also see eiue research com

if this is the type of information on the site then why would i? the site sounds like it will be full of misinformation if your post was any indication.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It doesn't matter if jews today spit on the face of Jesus and call him a "false prophet" or call his mother a "harlot"...christians will still support the jews.

It doesn't matter if muslims punctuate every mention of Jesus and Mary with "Peace be upon them", Christians will see muslims as anti-christian.

I had my daughter read this thread yesterday to see what her reaction would be.

She said, "You take too long explaining what you're trying to get at. Now Sk0rpi0n get's right to the point, and says everything in two simple paragraphs."

"But you don't understand!", I cried, "This is the Conspiracy sub-forum. If I started the thread that way, it would immediately get moved to General Religion or Rant."

"So? " She then responded, "He's got more stars than you."

"Of course! That's what I fully expected." Then pleading for her understanding of the plight of those who post about conspiracies in religion, "That's the expression of a gut level reaction to an easily observed phenomenon. I, on the other hand, have taken the role of explaining the behind the scenes machinations and hopefully, some of the psychological and sociological pressures involved as factors of said phenomenon. See?"

"Oh, whatever", she responded, "I hear you ranting and raving about this plenty."

"But not on the forum, never on the forum, ... only occasionally, accidentally on the forum."

Her final observation was, "You forum people are crazy."



Okay, let us press on then.

reply to post by pacifier2012

Originally posted by pacifier2012
It's because Jews seem to know who they are. Most Christians still follow the Jesus the disciples followed that called themselves servants, when they should be following the risen Christ who calls his followers brothers.

Is it any wonder Christians are confused when Jews are not when they do not even know who they are.

Yes, in the final analysis, it becomes clear that most Christians have failed to identify with "the risen Christ who calls his followers brothers." The identity struggle sounds something like this:

"What distinguishes me and my group as different and distinct? What are the markers?"

"Love, you say? Faith? Hope? So intangible!, So, so abstract! So not impressive, not glorious. There's got to be more! There's just got to be!"

"I know, I'll read the Old Testament for inspiration!"

And so they do, and take it literally, and long for a physical World dominating tribal identity to put them on top. They first spiritually, and some of them literally become Jews.

A few years ago I read Victoria Clark's book, Allies for Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism(description at bottom of post), I got the impression, whether she stated it in just this way or not, I don't remember; that Even if the Jews didn't exist, the Christians would have invented them. Based upon the observation that Restorationist Movements, such as Puritans, Pentecostals, and other Fundamentalists, invariably turn to the Old Testament for the model of what they "ought to be", and "what they ought to restore".

Now here is an actual, modern example of the phenomenon: The case of "The lost Hebrew tribe of Bnei Menashe". We'll start with a section of the New York Times Magazine article which I have been quoting extensively:

The lost Hebrew tribe of Bnei Menashe had been discovered -- after two and a half millennia -- in northeastern India. Its authenticity had been certified by the Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel. The tribe -- 6,000 strong -- wanted to "return" to the Holy Land. Taking them and getting them settled would run about $8 million, and Eckstein had already informed the government of Israel that he would pick up the tab. ...

Transporting 6,000 lost Jews from India to Israel is Indiana Jones stuff, but it is also, inescapably, a political act. Israeli political parties will tussle over patronage of this new voting bloc. Right-wingers will fight to get it housed in the West Bank; left-wingers will try to prevent that. And the Palestinians will condemn the whole exercise as a Zionist trick to upset the demographic balance. If a rabbi can turn 6,000 Indians into biblical Jews and take them to Israel, what's to stop him from finding 600,000 somewhere else?
By ZEV CHAFETS

So who really are these new Jews? Turns out that they are former Christians. In 1894 Christian missionaries began the conversion of animist headhunters in Northeast India. The process of Christianizing had been almost completed by the 1980s. However, under the influence of Welsh Revivalism a Pentecostal "prophet" announced, in 1951, that the tribe was actually the lost tribe of Mannaseh, exiled under the Assyrian Empire, and that they must follow all the laws and customs of The Law of Moses, and return to Israel.

You can read all the pros and cons in wikipedia. Bnei Menashe. The bottom line is, that Evangelical Christians have been partially funding the de-Christianizing and Judaizing of these people. Why? It fits into their view of Jews fully occupying the land of Palestine. It doesn't matter that they used to be Christians, just as long as Palestinians are disappeared. Most of the "Bnei Menashe" who have gone to Israel have ended up in the illegal Jewish only settlements in Palestinian land.

see also: 'Lost Tribe' makes aliyah
and: en.wikipedia.org...

Just a final note on identity politics, from the epilogue of Gilad Atzmon's book:

The only people who can bring peace about are the Palestinians, because Palestine, against all odds and in spite of the endless suffering, humiliation and oppression, is still an ethically-driven ecumenical society.

As far as Jews are concerned, a few questions remain. Can the Jewish identity discourse be liberated from its self-imposed ideological and spiritual tyranny? Can Jewish politics drift away from supremacy? Can Jews save themselves? My answer is simple: for Jewish ideology to universalise itself and for Jews to move on and emancipate themselves, a vigorous and honest process of self-reflection must take place. Whether Jews can engage in such a critical endeavour is an open question. I don’t know the answer, I guess that some can, others can’t. I would hope, though, that this book may offer a fairly good start.

Atzmon, Gilad (2011-09-30). The Wandering Who: A Study of Jewish Identity Politics (Kindle Locations 2667-2673). NBN_Mobi_Kindle. Kindle Edition.

Allies for Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism, Victoria Clark
Publication Date: November 28, 2007

Guided by a literal reading of the prophetic sections of the Bible, Christian Zionists are convinced that the world is hurtling toward a final Battle of Armageddon. They believe that war in the Middle East is God’s will for the region. In this timely book, Victoria Clark first explores the 400-year history of this powerful political ideology, laying to rest the idea that Christian Zionism is a passing craze or the province of a lunatic fringe. Then Clark surveys the contemporary Christian Zionist scene in Israel and in the United States, where the influence of the religious fundamentalists has never been greater.

... She finds that the view through the Christian Zionist lens is dangerously simple: President Bush’s War on Terror is a mythic battle between good and evil, and Syria and Iran represent the powers of darkness. Such views are far from rare—an estimated fifteen to twenty million Americans share them. Almost one in three Americans believes Israel was given to the Jews by God as a prelude to the Battle of Armageddon and Jesus’ Second Coming. Clark concludes with an assessment of Christian Zionists’ impact on American foreign policy in the Middle East and on America’s relationships with European allies since the attacks of 9/11.

reply to post by pthena

Almost one in three Americans believes Israel was given to the Jews by God as a prelude to the Battle of Armageddon and Jesus’ Second Coming.

And these people who really believe this are more likely to vote, so in the polls that count, they are probably more like 50%.
My conspiracy theory is that successful conspiracies cost lots of money.
The legend has it that the British official who was responsible for the land hand-over that Israel grew out of, told Lord Rothschild, "Sir, now you have your country!"
This same unlimited resource that allowed the creation of this "state" also was able to buy a religion. It was focused on ecumenicalism, which means acceptability across denominational boundaries. This is in its infancy stages, in the later half of the nineteenth century, where there were series of conferences held in the US, things, by the way, which would have cost an enormous amount of wealth. Money, I would have to suspect, was behind Oxford Press first printing the Scofield Study Bibles, and another trick, I am guessing, is how it was the second edition which had all the Reference Notes which brought the results of the conferences into all the churches, and the homes of Christians, which is this philosophy of how there has to be a restored Israel as a political body in Palestine before people can be raptured.

reply to post by jmdewey60

This same unlimited resource that allowed the creation of this "state" also was able to buy a religion. It was focused on ecumenicalism, which means acceptability across denominational boundaries. This is in its infancy stages, in the later half of the nineteenth century, where there were series of conferences held in the US, things, by the way, which would have cost an enormous amount of wealth. Money, I would have to suspect, was behind Oxford Press first printing the Scofield Study Bibles, and another trick, I am guessing, is how it was the second edition which had all the Reference Notes which brought the results of the conferences into all the churches, and the homes of Christians, which is this philosophy of how there has to be a restored Israel as a political body in Palestine before people can be raptured.

It's pretty easy to trace dispensationalism and pre-trib rapture.

It is believed that John Nelson Darby left the Church of Ireland around 1831.[2] He participated in the 1831–33 Powerscourt Conference, an annual meeting of Bible students organized by his friend,[3] the wealthy widow Lady Powerscourt (Theodosia Wingfield Powerscourt). At the conference Darby publicly described his ecclesiological and eschatological views, including the pretribulation rapture.[4]
. . .
The beliefs he disseminated then are still being propagated (in various forms) at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and Bob Jones University and by authors and preachers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.
. . .
As there was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s[citation needed], he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this book was the origin of the idea of the "rapture." Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism,
John Darby (evangelist)

And then follow that up with Scofield Reference Bible
That pretty much takes care of dealing with the Fundamentalists(Evangelicals, Pentecostals). What is different now within the teachings of the dispensationalists is the lack of urgency when it comes to converting Jews to Christianity. One factor could be all the free tours to Israel to meet with Prime Ministers for Christian Clergy, where they are subtly informed of the illegality of attempting to proselytize in Israel.

Another is that whereas in previous days, 1970s 1980s, it was taught that Christianity was the only way to salvation, therefore, in order for a Jew to be saved he/she had to accept Jesus. So they (dispensationalists) made every attempt to convert Jews "right up 'til rapture day". Now a new teaching called Dual Covenant has been taking over. The startling reality is that it came in from the left, the Liberal Post Reformation Neo-Protestants.

In the forefront is a man named A. Roy Eckardt, who died in 1998.

Antisemitism and the New Testament
A. Roy Eckardt, a pioneer in the field of Jewish-Christian relations,[2] asserted that the foundation of antisemitism and responsibility for the Holocaust lies ultimately in the New Testament.[3] Eckardt insisted that Christian repentance must include a reexamination of basic theological attitudes toward Jews and the New Testament in order to deal effectively with antisemitism.[4]

The general message that scholars such as Eckardt are trying to convey is that, using the New Testament as its authoritative source, the Church has stereotyped the Jewish people as an icon of unredeemed humanity;[Need quotation to verify] they became an image of a blind, stubborn, carnal, and perverse people. According to this view, this dehumanization is the vehicle that formed the psychological prerequisite to the atrocities that followed.[Need quotation to verify]

[2] In Memoriam: Professor A. Roy Eckardt Holocaust and Genocide Studies 1998 12(3):519
[3] Eckardt, A. Roy. Elder and Younger Brothers: the encounter of Jews and Christian, 1967.
[4] Eckardt, A. Roy. Your People, My People: the meeting of Jews and Christians, 1974.

We'll be looking at the positions of influence he's held, and some of his funding sources. Beware, his people had the clout necessary to have his profile removed from Wikipedia. Such removals of articles are usually done by personal request of still living people.

Something I was unaware of as a Seventh Day Adventist until it was pointed out to me on this forum a couple years ago is a statement by Ellen White that the country formerly under the ancient kingdom of Israel will never be brought to Jesus. What seemed to be the context of it is that there were people in the church who were all for sending people to the region to evangelize whoever lived there. I probably should check to see when that original statement was made, but I would guess that it would have been right when the British took the "mandate" at the end of WW II. I think she died in 1917.
Anyway, the point being, she basically vetoed the idea by saying she had a "vision" that the people there would never come around, so it would be a waste of resources to engage in what would amount to an exercise in futility.
It made me wonder if somehow the SDA church was connected in this web of conspiracy too. It would be in the right time frame, for when all this money was pouring in to finance the launch of Dispensationalism in America, when the church went from being so broke that she advised people not to spend money on wedding rings and to instead send that money to support the church; to all-of-a-sudden having ownership of brand new luxury resort spas, such as what J. Harvey Kellogg was running at Battle Creek.

reply to post by jmdewey60

As far as I know, the sudden influx of revenue was as a result of people such as Kellog catching the leading edge of the new trend of sanitariums that catered to the rich and trendy.

As for general SDA approach to interfaith matters, you might want to look at: Evangelism and interfaith relations by Bert B. Beach for Ministry Magazine.

However, Mrs. White does enunciate an overriding principle: "Christ recognized no distinction of nationality or rank or creed.... Christ came to break down every wall of partition: He came to show that His gift of mercy and love is as unconfined as the air, the light, or the showers of rain that refresh the earth."2
. . .
The one non-Christian religion Ellen G. White actually deals with is Judaism. She says that many Jews are to be won to Christ. Perhaps she was referring to latent anti-Semitism when she wrote that Adventists "should not despise the Jews"3 and that "there is to be no erecting of barriers. . . . Our work is to be given as freely to the Jews as to the Gentiles."4

2 White , Testimonies for the Church (Nampa, Idaho' Pacific Press Pub. Assn , 1948), 9:190,

3 White, Manuscript 87, 1907

4 Feb. 3, 1908.

The SDA approach has always been that there isn't anything special about Jews, they are people. There is nothing special about Palestine, it's just a place. No particular reason to emphasize people or place.

In reaching out to non-Seventh-day Adventists, the following three truths need to be remembered:

1. Not all Seventh-day Adventists will be saved.

2. Not all Christians or only Christians belonging to a church will be saved.

3. The important Pauline principle, "For God has no favorites . . . when gentiles who do not possess the law carry out its precepts by the light of nature, then, although they have no law, they are their own law, for they display the effect of the law inscribed in their heart. Their con science is called as witness" (Rom. 2:13-15, NEB).

-- Ibid.

reply to post by pthena

I never got around to doing any follow-up, other than to read an excerpt with that quote that I was referred to by the other ATS member a while back.
In the book, Road to Wellville, it says that there were a group of women investors who met with Mrs. White regularly, that had something to do with the Battle Creek operation.
It may have nothing to do with the Sabbath keeping, which would probably help with the acceptance of Jews, with a good example of Christians who kept it.

btw: I meant WW I, in the post above, when the British captured Palestine and other arias from Turkey.

reply to post by pthena


In "The Pharisees--The Sociological Background of Their Faith," Rabbi Louis Finkelstein describes these self-styled "Jews" and their origins: "Phariseeism became Babylonian Talmudism, Babylonian Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes in name... the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered." "... rabbinic Judaism, the first-born child of Phariseeism, remains a unit until this day." (p.XXI of Forward to 1st Edition, "The Pharisees," Vol. 1, Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938 & Vol. 2, p. 622.)

So, the question that needs to be asked is why do most Christians and non-Christians believe 1) that Judaism is the 'religion' of the OT and 2) why do Christians ignore Jesus' comments regarding to the Pharisees that they make converts "twice the child of hell"? Why is it that our Christians forefathers knew that they were of Israel, but today the media has indoctrinated most to believe that Christians are "Gentiles"? It's because they are all under the sway of the multiple false teachers, woves in sheep's clothing shredding them to pieces. They follow another gospel, and if they do pick up scripture, they read it through tainted glasses.

Learn the origin of the word 'Jew' and 'Gentile', and all will see how they've been led astray by lies and deceptions. The parable of the prodigal son is Joseph (House of Israel) - compare Genesis 41:42. Jesus told the parable to the Pharisees and scribes. In these last days, Christians are blind because of the deceptions, and their descendants have become atheists, forsaking the God of their forefathers without ever realising that they are deceived as well. We are drowning under thousands of laws regulating every hour of the day - just like the thousands of laws regulating Talmudic daily life. They run our law centres, our Congress, many of our church doctrines, and own and control our media. All of it has led a once predominantly Christian population to reject God and become hooked on greed, sex, sin and imaginary aliens. Wow, the time of the end is close.