If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

I have this thoughts for a while regarding evolution. What I read is that everything on earth evolved based on what we need, or where we are,  natural selection, or so we could adapt to the environment, etc. So why do birds evolved to have wings? Did one of their ancestors  just jump around and later found out that it is cool to fly, so they keep on jumping until they developed wings?  If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

reply to post by WinnieDaWho


Interesting.. What came first..? The chicken or the egg?..

No. It would take MUCH longer if it would happen at all.

Also. here's a quick explanation of how evolution works:
When a mutation occurs in the DNA it is either harmful, neutral or beneficial to day to day life. Organisms with a harmful mutation will usually not survive to mate and spread the mutation to their offspring, organisms with a beneficial mutation will. So the mutation spreads.

A good recent example of this in humans is our ability to digest milk as an adult. We're not meant to be able to digest lactose (I think it was the lactose), but about 7,000 years ago a mutation occurred in Europe that allowed them to digest milk as an adult.

My problem with evolution supplying wings is that for 90% of the transition, would they not be counter productive towards survival? Seems that if survival of the fittest parallels evolution due to mutation creating a more survival friendly condition, than eons of useless wing-like protrusions should not happen, or at the very least gain a foot hold as useless while it evolves in to a functional wing. But more to the point, I do not think humans could have sprouted wings.

reply to post by WinnieDaWho

Who knows? I mean, some squirrels are "flying" squirrels but most squirrels are not. Some lizards have "wings" for gliding from tree to tree like the flying squirrels have but most do not. Are there any species of monkey or ape that have similar flaps of skin for gliding purposes? I don't know. Nature just does what it does. It seems like if it were feasible there would be evidence of it somewhere, but so far I haven't seen any.

On a personal note, having wings would be lovely. Just think of all the money you could save on car notes, insurance, fuel and auto maintenance if we could just fly wherever we needed to go- no more traffic jams either!

the apes still jump from tree to tree

the reptilians from 'bank' to bank

our missing links flew in the sea and via vimana,

while deva & devaputra gifted with autonomous flight.

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
 If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

I have wings.

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

NO.

When they jump, they use their legs. They are not flapping their arms while they jump.

Originally posted by toocoolnc
reply to post by WinnieDaWho

 

Interesting.. What came first..? The chicken or the egg?..

edit on 21-4-2012 by toocoolnc because: (no reason given)

I think it was one of the prehistoric flying reptiles, which laid eggs, that evolved into the chicken

I don't think we would have developed wings, but maybe webbed underarms more like a squirrel, than our grannies
Or really long arms from all that swinging....like devolving into apes...

reply to post by HomeBrew

My problem with evolution supplying wings is that for 90% of the transition, would they not be counter productive towards survival?

Not at all. A wing is a modified limb that continues to perform its original function – leverage – in a new environment. Until it is used as a wing, it may be used as a stabilizer, a booster, even a passive airfoil as in the case of the extended winglike fins of a flying fish.

What did bipedal, non-flying dinosaurs use their forelimbs for? In many species they seem to have been vestigial remnants, not very functional. Any modification that would improve functionality would promote their owners' survival.

Originally posted by HangTheTraitors

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

NO.

When they jump, they use their legs. They are not flapping their arms while they jump.

Yes, but if you jump from a high branch to a lower branch while your arms are extended, and do it repeatedly, is it possible for them to develop a webbed arms as Snowspirit said, and later develop into wings?

No!
Long ago, we jumped out of the trees--if we ever lived there--and developed flat feet and lost our tails--if we very had such.

Your question maybe should have asked if as ground movers, could we not have developed wheels?

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho

Originally posted by HangTheTraitors

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

NO.

When they jump, they use their legs. They are not flapping their arms while they jump.

Yes, but if you jump from a high branch to a lower branch while your arms are extended, and do it repeatedly, is it possible for them to develop a webbed arms as Snowspirit said, and later develop into wings?

Read my above post on how evolution works. The answer to your question is yes, but probably not in the way you think it would. The body doesn't go "I seem to be falling through the air a lot, better develop wings...". It probably wouldn't happen, but it's possible over a very long period of time.

Winnie is following in the footsteps of the old natural philsophers. Great minds think alike! Let me choose another animal to clarify his thinking.

Consider the giraffe. Or rather, his ancestors. Is it not reasonable to assume that a group of short-necked proto-giraffes, nibbling on the lower leaves of the trees, would want to be taller? Each proto-giraffe straining to reach leaves that are higher than their neighbors can reach? Ligaments and muscles can be physically stretched, right? Yes, they can. So through effort, a creature can alter its physique. True.

Now we all know that a child will inherit all sorts of characterisitics from its parents. And I think this is where Winnie arrived by force of his own intellect. The proto-giraffe, by its own effort, will have as long a neck as he can manage. Its offspring will inherit that neck, improve on it, and pass on the improvement.

All you folks who know evolutionary theory are going " Whoa. You can't inherit yoga or weight training or,or, algebra! Physical training is like mental training. You can't pass it on! Not genetically!"

But bear in mind that naturalists knew long before Darwin that evolution was happening. There was no science of genetics, so this kind of thing was their best guess. That both they and Winnie thought along the same lines is no insult to either.

Winnie, consider this:
All creatures in a group exhibit minor differences.
All creatures have more offspring than their environment can support. (cold but true. Look it up.)
Any minor difference that allows one individual to have more surviving offsping than another is (naturally) selected for propagation.

That is what Darwin contributed. That's it. Now go back and read what everyone else posted.
Also, we didn't get wings, but why don't you google some animal skeleton images. Look at primate shoulders and look at every other mammal's shoulders. Maybe we can't fly, but show me a giraffe that can bean a lion with a rock .

In order for things to obtain wings after the fact, i would comsider that two similar species need to mix.

Then some ofspring might have wings or part wings. Then nature would select to most harty.

Just a thought.

Ok thanks very much for the reply, I think I have to do more research, and sorry if my question seems so stupid.

reply to post by WinnieDaWho


They generally use an existing template and similar niche to speculate about how certain traits could evolve. So our flying human would get much smaller, with a much more delicate build. They would almost certainly evolve a tail as a "rudder", and rather than wings, they would develop skin flaps to help them glide from tree to tree; much like a flying squirrel or colugo (which is actually a gliding not-quite-primate, albeit a "proto" one).

Either way, I rather like the idea of little gliding people. Sounds whimsical. Neat idea.

well being a large heavy (relatively for flying creatures) animal we would not develop wngs. we would like a previous poster said develop webbed membranes between our arms and legs to create a psuedo wing or parachute which would slow our decent just enough to allow us to glide from one tree to another.

humans have some pretty cool adaptions due to evolution. Our shoulders can brachiate so that our arms can independently grab different tree branches. we evolved this way because as monkeys turned into apes (which we descend from) they got too heavy to put all their weight on one tree branch without it breaking. So we learned to distribute our weight over three or four branches at a time.

We lost our claws which evolved into fingernails for the same reason. claws get in the way of climbing by using the brachiated method.

We developed binocular vision originally to be able to see fruit easier in the trees and grab them without falling out of the tree. Also our binocular vision allowed us to move easier in the trees tops swinging from branch to branch because allowed us to distinguish the spacial relationships easier. later it helped with hunting.

We initially developed color vision to be able to tell the difference between ripe and unripe fruit.

or nervous system developed us so that our arm muscles work faster than out finger muscles. you can jab or lash out faster than the same person can pull a trigger with their finger. this is because the wrists and palms do the work when you catch yourself falling not your fingers so we evolved faster nerve responses to our arm muscles than to our hands.

Humans have a bunch of neat evolutional designs inherited, but the developments of an airfoil is not one of them. sadly

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
I have this thoughts for a while regarding evolution. What I read is that everything on earth evolved based on what we need, or where we are,  natural selection, or so we could adapt to the environment, etc. So why do birds evolved to have wings? Did one of their ancestors  just jump around and later found out that it is cool to fly, so they keep on jumping until they developed wings?  If our human ancestors kept jumping from tree to tree, could we have also developed wings by now?

Did you even try reading the basics of evolution first, or are you just a creationist making a poor attempt to discount evolution? Wings don't suddenly grow. Humans have brains. They don't need wings to survive. It's very simple.

If humans had developed wings, our chests would stick out at least four feet to give enough leverage for the wing muscles to work properly, no sleeping on your stomach!