Yom HaShoah

reply to post by illuminnaughty


You have shown you know nothing of what Torah teaches. That kind of inhuman treatment of others is not some kind of Jewish trait. There are hateful, malicious individuals from every creed and culture. I understand that, and nothing about my posts attempts to make excuses for any behavior of that sort by anyone from any background. As I have already stated, this thread is about standing against those people and their actions regardless of their background. The holocaust is not a "card" to be "played". It is one of the greatest human tragedies in all of our history, and it is to be remembered so that we can hope to stop it from happening again, which it seems people like yourself would rather enjoy.

If you can't acknowledge that the HUMAN cost of the holocaust is something worth remembering, and the possibility of it happening again something worth fighting against, then you are seriously lacking in either knowledge/understanding of what happened, or basic humanity.

--Kit.

S&F.

I think we SHOULD remember such things. All of these events were very dark times for humanity. It is truly terrifying to think these are things man is capable of, both past and present.

Looking back on the 20th century, it was a very bloody and cruel time across the board. Not that humans haven't sought to destroy each other for centuries before and not that we have cured ourselves of such violence. But I hope we can use history as a warning to not repeat these things and for places where they are still occurring in the world today, that we can finally develop past it.

It saddens me how this gets politicized or is accused of 'propaganda' purposes. Hate to repeat an often-spoken phrase but it is true: Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. These wars and human atrocities should be a reminder for us.

Sadly, I do believe such things will happen again in the future and on an even worse scale. It's crushing to see what humans are capable of doing to each other and our world.

reply to post by AshleyD


Thank you for the kind words. I definitely agree. Just because something is in the past doesn't mean it should be forgotten and left there. Our history is always a part of us, and it's important to understand what happened, how, why. and I also believe we are in danger of facing these sorts of atrocities again in the near future. And we have far greater capacity for widespread destruction now than we did then. That is why I wrote this. There are some truly disturbing trends emerging in the world and if we fail to see them and take them seriously, we are all in danger.

Not only the holocaust, but the pre- and post-war periods in Europe and especially in the Soviet Union under Stalin were unfathomably horrendous. I can't stand the thought of humanity ever facing that again. Neither should anyone else, if we hope to avoid it.

--Kit.

Originally posted by Kitsunegari
I can't stand the thought of humanity ever facing that again. Neither should anyone else, if we hope to avoid it.

--Kit.

Guess what??!

We're still facing it...every single day that goes by...somewhere in the world...genocide is taking place.

Genocide Watch

I got a list there, titled "Countries at risk of genocide, politicide, or mass atrocities", from February 2012, that included countries experiencing what they call 'current massacres.' Here is that section of the list, with the first part being WHERE, the second being the victim, and the last being the ones committing the genocide against the victims.

1. DR Congo|Women, civilians, Congo Tutsis|Ex-Rwandan genocidists, mineral warlords
   
2. Sudan|Darfurese, Abyei, Nuba|Sudan army, Arab militias
   
3. Eastern Congo, Sudan, Uganda|Civilians, women, children|Lord’s Resistance Army
   
4. Syria|Pro-democracy protesters|Assad, Alawite loyalists; army
   
5. Somalia|Opposing clans|Al Shabaab
   
6. Afghanistan|Gov’t supporters|Taliban, Al Queda
   
7. Pakistan|Gov’t supporters|Taliban, Al Queda
   
8. North Korea|Gov’t opponents|Korean Army
   
9. Burma/Myanmar|Shan, Kachin, Karen, Rohinga, democrats|Burmese Army
   
10. Ethiopia|Gov’t opponents|Tigrean Army

10 on that list?!?!

Egad. It's way worse than anything that happened during the REAL holocaust...which was the whole of both World Wars...imo, that is...after all...holocaust means something like firestorm, right?
Everyone in the world, just about, suffered and lost during WWI and WWII.

If it was such a big deal to the people now begging remembrance every year...why are there 10 genocides going on right now, today?
Why not do all they can to try to stop others from suffering the same fate rather than stirring up trouble in their neighborhood?
Why not any of us, the same thing?

GOD told them in the OT to love their neighbor as themselves...long before Jesus told the rest of us.

I'm not finding fault but rather just trying to put this in perspective for everyone. If it was so horrible...then it is even more horrible now because WE OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER...but still...we just look away or say there is nothing we can do about it...but yet we should have done something then?

Can you dig what I'm saying? Anyone?

Originally posted by 1nOne
Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 17 countries: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland. (Wikipedia)

If the Holocaust actually occurred, why make it a crime to investigate the facts?

Don't be silly.

All of those countries were either directly affected by the Holocaust or have housed large numbers of survivors from it.

While I'm not a fan of making it illegal to deny the Holocaust - the people who do so are always shown up by their own preposterous arguments, anyway - it is somewhat understandable why some of these countries are very sensitive to the issue, especially bearing in mind how comparatively recently the events took place, and how many survivors or close relatives of the victims are still residing in these countries.

Put it this way: if a British person publicly claimed that the Transatlantic slave-trade never occurred, and that it was just a myth created by black people to gain an advantage over every other race, then I'm pretty sure that that would flout racial incitement laws in the UK.

Does that make the historical facts of the Transatlantic slave-trade in doubt ? Or is it more likely that the UK is - understandably - over-sensitive on these matters, due to its chequered colonial past, and involvement in the slave-trade ?

אלוהים להציל אותנו מעצמנו

Translated means God Save Us From Ourselves. Throughout human history to many have suffered and died due to our own inhumanity toward one another. I pray we can break the cycle and truly honor the Holocaust victims, and all of the millions who have died.

reply to post by Iamschist


Well said.

Through an understanding of the past lies the path to the future.

- Maksim Vinaver, prominent Russian-Jewish historical and ethnographical scholar of the late 19th and early 20th century.

I believe this quote has particular relevance here.

reply to post by queenannie38


You are absolutely right, thank you for pointing this out. I've failed to acknowledge the fact that human society has never escaped this kind of atrocity to begin with. My posts thus far have been very Western-oriented and in that I have overlooked a vast amount of the very human suffering I intended to speak out against.
Thank you for the list, it is truly eye-opening.

However, remembering the holocaust and the suffering of the people affected by it is not about "stirring up trouble." We should be remembering all of these instances of crimes against humanity.
It has been, and continues to be a "big deal" to those people; that's why you see these current atrocities in parts of the world that were removed from the epicenter of the holocaust's total destruction and not in the same areas all over again. People across the world did feel the effects of the war, but the Bloodlands of Europe saw destruction and depravity of a scale that is truly unfathomable, and its effects have been most pronounced throughout the Western world. It's no coincidence that every single place on this current list is outside that sphere of influence.
I think the issue is largely attributable to cultural relativity, and the way we tend to distance ourselves from the suffering of people we perceive as being separate and different from our own. And all I can say about that is that it's past time we learned that we are all a part of one world, and that wholesale slaughter of innocent people in any part of it cannot be tolerated by any one of us. My hope is that one day we will be able to treat each other as human beings - around the world and without exception.

I dig what you're saying, and you are right. We ought to know better. We should have known better before it even began, and we should certainly know better than to stand by and let it happen now.

—Kit.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


Orly. You do know that there are people out there who deny that it happened, right? As long as there's denials, you have to remind folks.

Besides, we really tend to become monsters when we don't get our noses rubbed in history like a puppy who soiled the carpet.


reply to post by 1nOne
You don't think that those of that faith DON'T? That's a bit silly. After all, that would mean people like you don't exist to tell them every single waking moment.

reply to post by illuminnaughty
Please link the bulldozed Christian. Please.

reply to post by 1nOne


It does beg that question....but it could be like what happens on here. People get tired of the Hitler worshipers, and therefore want laws to not have to acknowledge their existence for one more moment. You can do the wrong thing for all the right reasons, folks.

reply to post by illuminnaughty
No, it doesn't, if what you state is true.

But: the Holocaust happend, what 70 years ago? The people whom you are looking at were not the survivors of the monster, but children and grandchildren, who can remember the stories of the indignity, but never felt the beatings themselves, so they've got no real impression of how much they resemble their monster. It's good to remember. It just would help if the monsters (if it's factual) who descended from the survivors would get that.