How did Jesus forgive my SIN 2000 yrs ago +-

Originally posted by GmoS719
Obviously the trolls have took over the thread so that's my cue, On to the next.
Don't be afraid to talk about Jesus guys!
Just don't feed the pathetic trolls.
Peace

Christian love at its finest! I love you too and so does Jesus The Illegal Immigrant!

reply to post by mikeprodigy

What is the nuts and bolts of it, I know he died for my sin but how does that restore me back to GOD? Why did he have to die for our sin and why by doing so my sin is forgiven?

"I know he died for my sin"

Where?
Where in the bible does it say he died for your sin? Show me.

If all you can do is take a verse from here and there / glue it together / read a meaning into it.... and present it as evidence, then don't bother.

The bible tells you this.... Jesus was unjustly executed Roman style.... His death was not a ritualistic 'sin sacrifice' for anybodys sins.

reply to post by GmoS719


Just because people don't agree with your beliefs. and question your beliefs, does not make them trolls. That being stated, that's just what it boils down to...YOUR BELIEFS. Nothing you stated is fact, only what you believe.

reply to post by PapaRaymond

I realize that if in fact he was perfect and that humanity put him on a cross to die, this I think would be the greatest sin of all. Who asked him to do this when he asked to take this cup away but he did what was asked of him. He was made to do this and God could have stopped this at anytime, Its like Abraham going up to sacrifice his own son,then after a angel tells him that all nations of the earth are blessed because he was willing to obey. But would that not have been a sin if he would of murdered his son.

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
What is the nuts and bolts of it, I know he died for my sin but how does that restore me back to GOD? Why did he have to die for our sin and why by doing so my sin is forgiven?

edit on 17-4-2012 by mikeprodigy because: correction

I think you'll find Christians do not have the answer to HOW his death saves you... They just take it as a given... because the bible says so.

Though i can tell you how he saves us, and im sure i will be attacked from every side for this proclaimation but... like i care

His death although tragic and sooo wrong... is not what saves you... Your "sins" do not disapear because you believe in Jesus... thats just not how it works dispite what Christians will tell you...

Sin comes back to you... its the law of Karma... What you do in life will reflect upon your life... negative action creates negative Karma which is returned to you in various ways which are up to God... likewise Postive action will return postive Karma which is also reflected within your life...

Jesus did not die for your sins... He LIVED to save YOU from sin...

He showed us how to live without sin... and summed up the rules in one statement...

Love God, and love your neighbour as yourself...

Live with love and you can not sin... and do not confuse love with lust.... one is selfish, one is selfless...

LOVE = SELFLESSNESS...

reply to post by Akragon

They just take it as a given... because the bible says so.

Of course, that's the Biblical concept of faith. Trusting God because of the promises He made to us. Same as with Abraham. But faith needs to be coupled with revelation in order for it to be justifying faith. Faith cannot be thrown into a vacuum of ignorance, and it must rest upon the foundation of His promises to us fulfilled in Christ.

Anything short is just Churchianity.

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
reply to post by GmoS719

 

How through his death what changed what happened that would restore or save me,

See, the problem is, you're looking for empirical evidence of something that is purely faith-based.

No one can prove or demonstrate that they are saved through Christ, it is simply the accepted Christian belief. This is why beliefs are dangerous, especially when pushed onto others - the outcome is unpredictable.

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
What is the nuts and bolts of it, I know he died for my sin but how does that restore me back to GOD? Why did he have to die for our sin and why by doing so my sin is forgiven?

Well...in truth, it isn't so much about forgiveness but rather about REMOVING that which made forgiveness necessary. Think of it in terms of man's judicial system...and forgiveness in the court system is a pardon. To be pardoned is to no longer be guilty of a crime. But whatever crime is pardoned is only a crime because someone made a law declaring the action in question to be a crime and therefore correction would be the ideal way to try to take care of the possibility of future infractions of the same crime after pardoning the first incident. Sadly, man gets confused between correction and punishment and I think it carries over many mistaken ideas about GOD and GOD's sense of justice...which is truly fair but as of yet it is a perfect concept that most of us have not yet been brought to the point of being able to understand. It isn't that we are being deprived of information but rather that we each must evolve in the way that is best suited to each of us...and GOD knows this best way and leads us along in the most methodical fashion...and reveals mysterious things to us only when we are truly able to understand AND apply what is revealed to us. To mankind, what is important is just to KNOW and to know as much as possible right NOW...when the question is asked, we want an immediate answer. But to GOD...what is important is for us to benefit from, and grow into, the answers we seek.

The result is, among many other things, an incomplete understanding (opinion) of what sin is and what GOD did/is doing/will do about it on our behalf...and how...these opinions masquerade as authoritative answers behind the various faces of religious institutions...but yet when probed with any enthusiasm at all, quickly show themselves to be conglomerations made partly of what is believed to be true with the holes being filled in by imagination and private interpretation. Even the so-called religious leaders are privately interpreting these concepts if they are not looking to GOD for the answers. Even the bible will not give answers unless one seeks the LIVING truth which is taught by the Spirit...that we ALL have equal access to, btw.

So to start sorting out what is human theology from the core of divine truth on this subject, we can start in John, namely 1:29:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

...Jesus TAKES away the sin of the world...
To take away is not the same as to forgive...to forgive is to pardon, remember...but to take away the crime (sin), one must do away with the law or rule that makes that action or deed a crime...a sin.

We know for sure that the only thing that ever truly results from the creation of more law is a higher crime rate...more criminals are the direct result of increased law. This continued effort toward defining what is legal and what is NOT...what is crime...in no way improves man's ability to be 'lawful.' In fact...it makes it more and more likely that man is judged as lawless...because if he cannot follow the law, he is then a criminal because not following the law is a crime. And yet society does NOT improve at all.

Of course, not having any law or restrictions will not automatically result in an orderly society but that is where the CORRECTION part comes in...this is an idea man has not grasped at all...rehabilitation as it is defined in human society is not effective and it isn't correction..it is a poorly disguised way to bring about submission to the law through psychology.

If it were about pardon only...that life was given to wipe out previous infractions...and no correction was given...then how many times would Jesus have to die? There would be no end to that. It isn't the fix and it isn't what happened.

Matthew 9:12-13
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus didn't come to be a sacrifice...he came to deliver the form of GOD's mercy...and elsewhere in the bible it says that mercy triumphs over judgment...meaning GOD never intended to make us feel like criminals but to deliver us from the law which declares us criminals...against which we really have no recourse other than to just accept that we will eventually make some mistake no matter how careful or even knowledgeable of the law we try to be...and even if we spent 75 years toeing the line...in just one deed not necessarily ill-intentioned, all that is meaningless because we have now become a criminal by breaking one law...running a stop sign, say.

(continued)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

They just take it as a given... because the bible says so.

Of course, that's the Biblical concept of faith. Trusting God because of the promises He made to us. Same as with Abraham. But faith needs to be coupled with revelation in order for it to be justifying faith. Faith cannot be thrown into a vacuum of ignorance, and it must rest upon the foundation of His promises to us fulfilled in Christ.

Anything short is just Churchianity.

edit on 17-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Tell that to your fellow Christians...

People around here toss scripture around as if its the final word... but that word depends on the scripture...

(moving along...)

After reading the posts up until this point, in this thread, I want to mention something about the idea of 'faith,' also greatly misunderstood/misapplied.

There are two ideas behind the word 'faith'...at least there were when the writers wrote about it way back when...now we've managed to lump it all together into some semblance of what we think of as BELIEF.
To believe is not to be faithful...to believe is to hold something as true without having empirical/objective evidence. The bible clearly states that GOD is the source even of our individual propensity to believe or not believe, likewise...if we believe, it is His doing and so the same applies if we don't believe...and that means believe any little point or detail or combination of several, etc.,
But the FAITH that brings us the mercy of GOD that manifested in the form of Jesus is the faith of GOD...and of Jesus...it is NOT belief.
To do what one says one will do...that is the true definition of being faithful. Such as in the marriage vows...both people give their word, their vow, that they will remain loyal (and this is way beyond just sex, this idea of loyalty) to each other...forsaking all others. That means that there should ideally be no situation, event, or person(s) that will have the power to come between the two...nothing should be able to break that voluntary promise made to each other...sadly it does..but that is because we are incapable even of the sort of faithfulness that is inherent in GOD's nature...we give our word about a variety of things and once in a while we are able to stick to our word and truly do that which we said we would do...sometimes it isn't our doing that we are unable but interference from others still results in the eventual failure of keeping our word. We just don't have the power or will to make the kind of guarantee GOD has made to all of mankind, through the seed which is Jesus...which was given as a voluntary promise to Abraham directly from GOD...which GOD sworn on His own name being the only legitimate guarantor of a truly infallible promise.

When GOD gives His word...He will keep it.
There is nothing that can prevent this...not even 'refusing' salvation, as is popularly believed and declared by a LOT of people...of course these that say such things are the ones that didn't 'refuse.'
Go figure.
It's hard to refuse or accept something when it happens long before you ever were born. I'd say impossible.
And since we obviously are, some of us, not smart enough to know a gift horse when it is underneath us, even, GOD made sure that we don't have to be smart enough to know to accept a gift that really wouldn't be a gift if it depended upon us being able to recognize it as such...and act accordingly.

Why leave it up to us if we have these difficulties? If we need saving, then that means we have no power in ourselves to help ourselves. And obviously this is the way it is supposed to be since the same one who is rescuing us is the one who made us the way we are...even being a 'sinner' is something that we are by divine intention and there is no other legitimate assignment of this other than it is a direct result of GOD's intention and plan.

If we are first made imperfect, then it is simply the foundation for what will one day be perfected...and if we don't know 'before,' the idea of 'after' is meaningless and undetectable.

Magic! Beautiful, tangible, undeniable, magic. He whispered a spell and BAM! there you go eternal life.

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
What is the nuts and bolts of it, I know he died for my sin but how does that restore me back to GOD? Why did he have to die for our sin and why by doing so my sin is forgiven?

edit on 17-4-2012 by mikeprodigy because: correction

If you smoke, you get cancer. This is a debt that is created by taking a reward. What did we take in the Garden of Eden? We took the fruit of knowledge (Technology). John, in revelation, then tells us that 666 is the mark of the beast. Carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. Again, technology and mankind as the beast to overcome. We are thieves. We took something that was not ours to take. Each time we take a reward, we create a debt. The debt is added and subtracted. As you say, + and - . The only thing we can do to pay the debt is addition and subtraction. Even if mankind sees his error, what can we do to pay this debt and survive? The answer is nothing. We are stuck.

Matthew 24

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Can you make the connection in this verse to the above? The only way to make the connection is to consider mankind and not simply yourself. The way to see the larger picture is to know the mathematics involved. Our sin is a negative. Jesus died a negative death to set us free. How did he do it?

Use the example above. Smoking causes a debt that is paid by cancer. Taking reward causes suffering. Flip this around in the mirror and pay the debt. How? Suffer the work first and reward follows. Work at a job and you get a paycheck. Suffer a college degree and get a better job. Use the extra money to buy a car and now you can drive to work. Suffering creates reward. This is called giving. What did Jesus do with his entire life?

Now, what happens when you multiply negatives? Two negatives (Our sin and Jesus Death) create a positive value. This is because debt is walked back to zero by forgiveness. Example:

Consider this example: In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30). If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative. You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero.

Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt, walking us back to a positive value.

Jesus number in Greek Gematria is 888. Oxygen has 8 electrons, 8 protons and 8 neutrons. Nitrogen is 777 (God's Heptadic number of completion). The air we breathe allows us to overcome the Carbon (666), but not without the resource God provides. The fruit we took would have killed us and destroyed the air had God not stepped into our timeline and saved us.

More good thoughts linked in my signature. Also, read my threads.

Originally posted by 35Foxtrot
reply to post by mikeprodigy

 

He died to free you from Original Sin. Basically so you'd start with a clean slate rather than be tainted by mankind's sin from Eden.

He did more than free you from original sin. I'll quote what i posted to another fellow who thought he needed to be "resaved" or "rededicated".

The penalty from eternal death was removed from your spirit forever when you first accepted Yeshua as Savior. You were freed from sin, no longer a slave to sin. Sin within the constraints of the Holy Bible is defined soley as DEATH. You will still sin in your life sometimes because your human flesh is weak and flawed (Paul said the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak), but those sins no longer incure the penalty of eternal death because of the blood of Christ is on you. You backslide to the cross when you think you have to get resaved and it angers Christ when you think he needs to resacrifice himself because God sacrificing himself once was not sufficient enough for you. Believe me bro, once was all we ever needed and you are free forevermore. "Rededication" is a lie because you believe that you can remove yourself from his hand by your own power and you make of him a liar and he has already stated that NO ONE can take you from him, this includes yourself.

The blood of the Lamb of God, Yeshua is represented in the OT as the lamb's blood that the Israelites coated their doorposts with so that the Angel of Death (Satan the Destroyer) would pass by them and not claim the firstborn children. Once the Blood of the Lamb is on you his wrath passes over you and Satan no longer has a hold on you, you are forgiven. Committing sinful acts will prick your conscience because your spirit has changed and deep inside Christ's commandments were written into your mind and heart so it bothers you when you do sin, but all you need to do is confess it and move on with repentance.

You're not going to learn it all overnight, this stuff takes years and no one can tell you who Yeshua (Jesus) is, he will show you who he is when he sees you are ready. His blood did more than free you from original sin, he freed you from all sin forever more. He set the captives (slaves to sin) free. It starts with you acknowledging and confessing your flaws and imperfections and then you ask him to come into your life and change your spirit and be your Savior and King and then he becomes your "passover lamb".

It starts with that leap of faith, that first prayer for him to come into your life and make you whole. That is where your journey begins, and it's just the beginning.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar

Originally posted by GmoS719
Obviously the trolls have took over the thread so that's my cue, On to the next.
Don't be afraid to talk about Jesus guys!
Just don't feed the pathetic trolls.
Peace

Christian love at its finest! I love you too and so does Jesus The Illegal Immigrant!

He can still rebuke you and love you ya know?

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

They just take it as a given... because the bible says so.

Of course, that's the Biblical concept of faith. Trusting God because of the promises He made to us. Same as with Abraham. But faith needs to be coupled with revelation in order for it to be justifying faith. Faith cannot be thrown into a vacuum of ignorance, and it must rest upon the foundation of His promises to us fulfilled in Christ.

Anything short is just Churchianity.

edit on 17-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Tell that to your fellow Christians...

People around here toss scripture around as if its the final word... but that word depends on the scripture...

You realize we believe its God's Word right? You don't have to have the same faith, but that's our faith. And if we have faith its Gods Word then that's why we appeal to it as absolute authority.

reply to post by mikeprodigy

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
What is the nuts and bolts of it, I know he died for my sin but how does that restore me back to GOD? Why did he have to die for our sin and why by doing so my sin is forgiven?

The problem here, is that you are accepting the doctrines of men, and then trying to find the correct answer, to the way they have defined Jesus death.

You need to first take a look at what Jesus has to say about it, by looking at his words in the New Testament and then asking yourself some serious questions…For example, where does Jesus say “I have come to die for everyone’s sins?” or Where does he say “All you have to do is believe in my death, and you will be forgiven?”

You then have to contrast and weigh up those ideas with Jesus teachings, especially the ones where he calls sinners to repent, for their sins. Repentance is to ask God for forgiveness, and is meant to be done in a person’s day to day life, which IMO, is an ongoing process, when one enters into a relationship with God.

In John Chapter 15 to 16 Jesus tells us everything that will happen regarding his death and resurrection. If ever there was a time in the bible to tell people, that he was going to die for all our sins, and that that was all we needed to believe in, in order to be forgiven, then John 15 – 16 was the perfect place to mention it. Of course, Jesus does no such thing.

Christians will tell you Jesus took your punishment, so that you could be reconciled back to God. They will also tell you that Jesus is God; which essentially equates to God taking his own punishment, that he himself, was going to bring upon us.

The real truth IMO, is that it’s Jesus life and teachings, that saves a person. Why do I say this…well first of all, Jesus teaches us about repentance, which he sees as an important thing in the eyes of God. He also teaches us about how to receive the Holy Spirit, which helps a person enter into a relationship with God; and Jesus considers this to be very important part in becoming saved. Jesus brings a greater understanding about the commandments given by God, and shows why it’s important to keep them. Remove just one of those teachings, and no one would be saved, or be able to receive/seek forgiveness and come to know God through Jesus.

IMO It’s the message of God that Jesus brought, which saves a person, and he gave his life in order to bring it to us. I say he gave his life for us, because God knows all things ahead of time and he knew that men would reject the truth and put Jesus to death. Yet Jesus brought the message of Love/God anyway, to help save others.

So as you can see, I believe Jesus died for my sins, but just not in the same way Christians believe it. When you look at in the way I have described above, the focus gets shifted from Jesus death and judgment from God, and more towards his life message, and how you can find salvation through it, and by following it.

Luke 15:3-7
Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

John 10:17-18
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

John 15:13-15
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you

In (John 15:13-15) Jesus explains that he lays down his life for his friends/Sheep; but what is left open to interpretation, is the manner in which Jesus lays down his life for others. Men have already interpreted these aspects of faith for us, thousands of years ago. So my final words of advice to you, would be Psalm 118:8


- JC

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

They just take it as a given... because the bible says so.

Of course, that's the Biblical concept of faith. Trusting God because of the promises He made to us. Same as with Abraham. But faith needs to be coupled with revelation in order for it to be justifying faith. Faith cannot be thrown into a vacuum of ignorance, and it must rest upon the foundation of His promises to us fulfilled in Christ.

Anything short is just Churchianity.

edit on 17-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Tell that to your fellow Christians...

People around here toss scripture around as if its the final word... but that word depends on the scripture...

You realize we believe its God's Word right? You don't have to have the same faith, but that's our faith. And if we have faith its Gods Word then that's why we appeal to it as absolute authority.

Absolutely!!

And you are free to do so my friend, no one is trying to stop you...

reply to post by Akragon

Absolutely!!

And you are free to do so my friend, no one is trying to stop you...

Well consider that when you wonder why we toss it around as if it's the "final word".

Because it's our faith that it is.

reply to post by DeReK DaRkLy

No one can prove or demonstrate that they are saved through Christ, it is simply the accepted Christian belief. This is why beliefs are dangerous, especially when pushed onto others - the outcome is unpredictable.

We have faith, we have his word (and Yeshua never lies) and we have the prophets testimonies who foretold what he would do hundreds of years before he did it.

Don't believe Jesus existed or the Apostles? Tell that to Simon bar Jonah (Simon Peter son of Jonah) whose tomb was recently found with Yeshua's name carved onto his ossuary. Peter was the rock Christ built the church on, and the rock has been discovered. Time is winding down. Lazarus, Martha and Mary's family tomb was also discovered with their ossuaries in them as well. We're coming full circle.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

No one can prove or demonstrate that they are saved through Christ, it is simply the accepted Christian belief.

Nope, the baptism of the Holy Ghost with fire that empowers Kingdom ministry is proof positive or our calling and election.