15-Year-Old Texas Boy Charged With Murder In Deaths Of 9 Illegal Immigrants

Originally posted by Furbs
Now..

..hypothetically..

..if someone killed a mess of someone I didn't want in the country while committing a crime..

..I might charge them with something that is impossible to convict him on if I didn't want him getting in trouble for it.

Not saying this is happening here.. but stranger things have happened.

I like your logic.

reply to post by KnightFire


Vicarious liability...

Think Charles Manson,.. he never killed anyone, but took part in the crime.. similar to, hypothetically, a get away driver, who waited in the car, being charged with murder after one of his criminal cronies kills a teller.

Re: Manson, to wit: "He was convicted of the murders through the joint-responsibility rule, which makes each member of a conspiracy guilty of crimes his fellow conspirators commit in furtherance of the conspiracy's object.[4][5]"

Originally posted by GovtFlu
reply to post by KnightFire

 

Vicarious liability...

Think Charles Manson,.. he never killed anyone, but took part in the crime.. similar to, hypothetically, a get away driver, who waited in the car, being charged with murder after one of his criminal cronies kills a teller.

Re: Manson, to wit: "He was convicted of the murders through the joint-responsibility rule, which makes each member of a conspiracy guilty of crimes his fellow conspirators commit in furtherance of the conspiracy's object.[4][5]"

I like it, but Mason wasn't 15 years old. Should age matter?

I would think the person that put the unlicensed boy behind the wheel of the van would be the responsible person.

reply to post by ReadAwhile


this is interesting because that supreme court case in ark. is relative to trying this child as an adult. why use a 15 year old child to send a message to "smugglers" or persons who have the impetus to seek a more enriching life in america by any means necessary; not disregarding the tragedy? some people are sick and drunk with their position in life; the authority to send a message should never lie on charging a 15 year old boy/prepubescent, especially in light of the power and ability to make right use of charge to authority, as an adult.

as some of the supreme justices have weighted in on the ark. case and some similar cases: prison is for punishment; why allow states the right to choose which children they charge as adults or what terms can be set on sentencing when there is a delicate matter of the reality of a child defendant. some states have laws barring the judge the sentencing ability of giving a child life without parole or even the notion that a states charge a child as an adult.

reply to post by KnightFire


Age should not matter. Every case should be looked at individually. The question is, was the driver aware that his actions may lead to the loss of life? The driver did not willfully crash the van. The driver did not willfully kill and injure the passengers. But, did the driver know what he was doing?

reply to post by KnightFire

Let's just say this kid was thinking his passengers would be better off away from the border patrol. Would it still be fessible to have a homicide charge vs felony murder?

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't feel it would be a valid one because the condition for "depraved heart murder" has also been met. Regardless of his intent, the kid still acted "with gross recklessness showing lack of care for human life".

As I see it, the only real issue is whether, or not, to charge him as an adult.

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by LevelHeaded

The question is, was the driver aware that his actions may lead to the loss of life?

At the age of 15, unless he has a severe mental impairment, he certainly should have. At a much younger age than 15, I was WELL aware that actions such as his very likely "may lead to loss of life".

But, did the driver know what he was doing?

Though that is for a Judge or jury to decide, I feel it is most likely that he DID, indeed, know exactly what he was doing.

See ya,
Milt

Originally posted by KnightFire

Originally posted by ReadAwhile
Why murder charges?

Hidalgo County District Attorney Rene Guerra said he wants to "send a message" and try the teenage suspect as an adult.

That's pretty clear. No illusions here.

So what is the message? Don't smuggle people? Don't crash a van with people in it? Don't drive without a license? Don't run from the border patrol? The message they are trying to send isn't very clear IMO.

The message that should be had from this is don't abandon your child or you will be held responsible.

This kid is 15 years old. Where the hell is his mum and dad?

I do not believe for one second that a 15 year old boy woke up one day and decided that illegal immigrants were a viable business. Someone got him into that, and they need locking up.

I think that a U.S. prosecuter's perspective is flawed in most cases. I understand the job description, but even if they know they're wrong in a case, they'll fight with no more regard for human life as the person who committed the crime. As in the case of Justine Winter, a girl who wrecked a car into a 35 yr. old mother who was pregnant at the time, killing her and her son, Justice is far from served. abcnews.go.com... I too was a victim of an over zealous prosecuter and judge, when I was prosecuted for Car Theftas a teen. Wierd thing is that I am blind, and even after being in jail for weeks and the parents of the child who did steal the car pleeding for them to release me due to the fact I didn't know the car was stolen. The prosecuter didn't care and was insensitive to the situation, and just locked me up for 6 months anyway. My family couldn't afford a lawyer, and I never even got one. All I got was walked all over, and my already broke mother had to fork out 100 bucks a week and endure 6.3 months in America's finest dungeon. Sadly Justine has to as well, and sadly the boy will probably have to also. Truly sad Jail of any sort is a traumatizing experience, for anyone.

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by KnightFire

 

To varying extents in the United States, the requisite intention can also be found where the perpetrator acts with gross recklessness showing lack of care for human life, commonly referred to as "depraved heart murder",[4] or during the commission of or while in flight from any felony or attempted felony (termed felony murder.)

Source
It seems to me that murder IS the appropriate charge!

See ya,
Milt

Thats exactly what I was about to post, glad I read through the thread first

There are so many cases where felons escape conviction because of the phenomenon of "overcharging" by prosecutors.

Murder is way too strong a charge for this. Likely he will end of getting set free as they won't be able to prove anything beyond manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt.

I totally disagree with the charge of anything other than reckless driving and without a license carting illegals, that would be aiding and abetting a criminal activity.

There was no intent to harm anyone.

Whatever happened to these things being "just an accident"?

Prosecutors have become way to arrogant in their zeal to make "points".
Do they get a bonus for every success?
Mayber they would be more interested in real justice if when they convicted someone who was innocent, they themselves would have to serve the same sentence. If it was death, well,so be it. To send a message.

Originally posted by OhZone
I totally disagree with the charge of anything other than reckless driving and without a license.

There was no intent to harm anyone.

Whatever happened to these things being "just an accident"?

Prosecutors have become way to arrogant in their zeal to make "points".
Do they get a bonus for every success?
Mayber they would be more interested in real justice if when they convicted someone who was innocent, they themselves would have to serve the same sentence. If it was death, well,so be it. To send a message.

Its an accident when your driving along, doing the speed limit and a tire blows or an animal runs in the road, causing you to crash.
Its a crime when you are in the process of felony evading the police, causing you to crash, which then causes loss of life.

reply to post by cbaskins

If you're so blind, how is it that you read this thread, and typed your response? The vision in my left eye is about 20/100 corrected, and I can't read a damn thing out of it. To be legally blind in the United States requires a best corrected vision, in the better eye, of 20/200 or worse.

That's a serious question! I currently struggle to read because of a cataract in my "good" eye, and don't have the finances, or insurance to get it taken care of, so I will likely be SOL in a month or two. That might be good news to some of you.

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by babybunnies


according to my comprehension of the legal/criminal justice system he will be charged if he is not extradited which is another potential association. if he stands trial for the murder charge and charging him as an adult and the fact that prison is for punishment is the reality that his crime will have tragic implications regarding the plaintiffs charges. knowing this why would someone knowingly with their appointed position make an example of human body trafficking on the life of a 15 year old child is sad, so the tragedy will befall the heart of the prosecutors involved in some way as well im sure: but someone has to make a point?! if the point being made is the child after his incarceration the prosecuting attorneys should show to their constituents how this point is good not just glean from the tragedy of another child entered into a criminalized view of america. because the people in the van were not americans it lies on americans where this took place to do right by the authorities trusted in america by mexico to treat the child fair. while "advocates" might disagree with civil liberties for "illegal immigrants" this is a very serious case that will most likely get postponed until the judges convene upon which it would be tragic moreso if they allow states rights to trying children as adults across the board; but thats in conversation the deed is done.

Actually it is quite old technology, it's called a screenreader. Jeesh I think I give ATS too much credit sometimes.

reply to post by BenReclused

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reply to post by Juggernog


The loss of life is irrelavent to the case, it is collateral damage - unintended.
Ok so he has another charge - fleeing and alluding.

reply to post by cbaskins

Jeesh I think I give ATS too much credit sometimes.

There was no need to be sarcastic. I've never had to deal with being blind before, but it's coming.

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by KnightFire


How about targeting the group that hired an underage kid to smuggle humans into the country?

Unless they actually think a 15 year old thought of this plan himself? I doubt they are that stupid.. I'm sure there is a smuggling gang behind this whole operation.