Theories for why the government is covering up the existence of extraterrestrial beings

Lucid Luncacy says, (in response to my assertion that the chances of extraterrestrial intelligences visiting earth are vanishingly small):

"Do you mind elaborated on this? How can you make such an assumption?"

My assumptions derive from two things: 1. the necessity of every single one of the factors in my first post having to be correct; and 2. my review of Drake's Equation, to which our colleague coronamoz referred.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by Off_The_Street]

IF this is true- the lie is perpetuated by lies. If the gov't has this knowledge and had to divulge it, then all things the gov't is involved in must become fair game for scrutiny. That is why diclosure will be a rough path. it calls into question every ounce of trust and accountability that we as U.S. citizens and our neighbors around the world have in the gov't. The U.S. seems to be the sole possessor of supposed alien tech- How would disclosure play into world relations then? I'm sure various countries, for various reasons would demand a share of the info/tech. Would the U.S. give it up? I'm inclined to say no, they would not. A big ol' pandora's box, if you ask me.

Now I saw the term "white hole" being used. That term has passed into obsolescence. White holes are not considered to exist, what was thought of as a white hole was Cygnus X-1, which is now looked at as a BIG black hole with a large accretion disk.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by Der Kapitan]

Further on points one through 8, as you are correct, each would have to prove true...

1. There are other beings our there besides us. Therefore

A: Between all of the answers in #2, and the possible microbes in the Mars meteor, increasing evidence of water on Mars, and possible life on Europa, this point seems to be correct.

2. Those other beings are intelligent ones. Therefore,

A: A: Government documents, sightings witnesses, abductees, photos, video, gun-camera footage, NASA footage, highly credible witnesses including pilots, senior ranking officers, even ex-presidents, not to mention centuries-old works of art, all supporting such craft and beings.

3. They are able to travel to other solar systems. Therefore,

A: The Betty Hill starmap is one of the best pieces of evidence of this. She clearly drew the locations of YELLOW stars, in a constellation she couldn't have even seen from her native hemisphere, including some that weren't even known of, or as yellow, at the time. Not to mention of course, the answers given in #2 above.

4. They have done so. Therefore,

A: See the answer to #3.

5. Out of the billion or so solar systms just in our galaxy, they chose the Earth as one of the lucky ones, and visited us. Therefore,

A: Again, I'll use Betty's map as but one example, as they were exporing other solar systems with a yellow sun like their own.

6. Although they could have visited the Earth any time over, say, the last hundred billion years, they just happened to do it in our lifetimes. Therefore,

A: As mentioned in #2, they have been doing so for quite some time, not just our lifetime.

7. The government found out about it and no one else did. Therefore,

A: Sure others did. It even made the front page, until it was retracted. Others have found out about it all since as well, hence the evidence mentioned in #2 above.

8. The government decides to keep it quiet.

A: of course they did. They were charged with the security of the nation, and here was something counteracting that security at it's leisure. A plan was put into place right after the first crash retrieval. The ENTIRE intelligence system of the US was revamped in short order (less than a month!) to respond to the threat (see the Security Act of 1947, enacted in July, after the Roswell incident). It took more time to create the Department of Homeland Security than it did for the Security Act to go into effect, hehe... Must have been SOME crisis to make 911 pale in comparison...

As for the ability to travel solar systems, much of the evidence suggests that they do not travel in a linear point A to point B fashion, but instead use some kind of "space folding" to temporarily warp gravity/space/time to bring point B to point A, attach itself to point B, then "snap back" to the destination point B. With a travel time of virtually 0, it certainly increases the odds of such visitation.

It would absolutly guy religion, some science, a feeling of secureity over here in our little planet, give the airforce nothing to blame test flights on and thats just a few.

Free Energy.

The Oil Industry would no longer control the world. That's as good a reason as any to keep the public from knowing about UFOS.

Illuminati would be outta business.
-----------

Also, UFOS are in a higher dimension than we are. They're around and in the sky all the time, but we can't see them in our 3rd dimension. They vibrate in a faster energy frequency.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by coney]

"Knowledge is power." Why would these men relinquish that power?

You could let your imagination run wild just thinking about all of the details, but the bottom line is we'll probably never know unless we happen to stumble across it ourselves. Even then it would just be a fraction, a glimpse into the hard truth. The general public's knowledge of anything beyond 'normalcy' isn't a concern to the government. Take a seat. There's a long ride ahead of us.

Imagine what could be done by the first country that figured out the weapon technology can you say control the Earth. How about the beam me up Scotty technology Osama Bin Laden would have been history.
The technology just on one ship if known completely could change everything it all depends if you use it for the good or for the not so good you know what I mean.

A: Between all of the answers in #2, and the possible microbes in the Mars meteor, increasing evidence of water on Mars, and possible life on Europa, this point seems to be correct.

Possible doesn�t mean correct; it means possible

Government documents
where? ,

sightings
William Blake had sightings of angels in the trees outside his house. Anyone can claim to have a sighting or even believe they had a sighting.

witnesses
see above,

abductees
see above,

photos
conveniently fuzzy and out of focus

video
conveniently fuzzy and our of focus

gun-camera footage
where?

NASA footage
where? ,

highly credible witnesses including pilots, senior ranking officers, even ex-presidents
Jimmy Carter is �credible�? ,

centuries-old works of art
interpreted as such by people who really want there to be UFOs

all supporting such craft and beings.
No. They all suggest such to people who are suggestible to begin with.

The Betty Hill starmap
Do you mean the Betty Hill Starmap as interpreted by Marjorie Fish or the Betty Hill starmap as interpreted by Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg? C�mon, Gazrok, even people who believe in that stuff can�t agree which star is which. What do the astronomers to whom she showed the starmap have to say?

As for the ability to travel solar systems, much of the evidence suggests that they do not travel in a linear point A to point B fashion, but instead use some kind of "space folding" to temporarily warp gravity/space/time to bring point B to point A, attach itself to point B, then "snap back" to the destination point B. With a travel time of virtually 0, it certainly increases the odds of such visitation.
On other words, you�re making up a whole new field of physics here to get away from such unpleasantness as the speed of light being a cap to travel. What exactly is your �evidence�? Is it based on any kind of math and science or is it there because without a �magic space drive� the whole alien thing becomes increasingly unlikely?

Gazrok, each of us is entitled to our opinion. I think the reason we disagree is our basic outlook.

You are a moderator, to you it is evidence;
I am an engineer, to me it is wishful thinking.
I guess we�ll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
You are a moderator, to you it is evidence;
I am an engineer, to me it is wishful thinking.
I guess we�ll just have to agree to disagree.

I think that's rather dubious logic. Do you know what he does for a living? Don't ask me because I don't either. How much study has he put into this topic? Just to single him out because he's a member of the staff just doesn't fly.

I'm not saying that Gazrok (or you, for that matter) have different guidelines for determining the validity of evidence because you are moderators. It does, though, seem pretty obvious to me that most of the people here on this forum do believe that there really is something to this extraterrestrial intelligence business, and I also assume that anyone who is a moderator on such a forum will probably have the same viewpoint as most of the members.

But the bottom line is that I do not seem to share the same criteria for acceptance of evidence as most people here, moderator or member. Hopefully, my differing opinions will not cause me any trouble. Despite the fact that some people might not agree with me, I, too, am dedicated to denying ignorance.

Here's hoping that others here are not dedicated to denying me.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Hopefully, my differing opinions will not cause me any trouble. Despite the fact that some people might not agree with me, I, too, am dedicated to denying ignorance.

Here's hoping that others here are not dedicated to denying me.

That type of behavior would be counter productive to thought. BTW, I'm not sold on it either but I'm keeping an open mind.

Government documents
where?

Research. You can start with the MJ-12 files and declassified UFO files from the government. The Rendelsham by the MOD is a good starting position.

William Blake had sightings of angels in the trees outside his house. Anyone can claim to have a sighting or even believe they had a sighting.

Research all eye-witness evidence and technical evidence.

witnesses

See Disclosure project witnesses, there's quite a few engineers and scientists in there()

abductees

Research: See John's Mack and Budd Hopkins studies and famous abduction cases.

photos
conveniently fuzzy and out of focus

Research: See Billy Meier

video

See the Pheonix lights case.

NASA footage
where

Research. See STS space shuttle footage.

centuries-old works of art
interpreted as such by people who really want there to be UFOs

See ufoartwork.com, in particular the paintings of Virgin Mary and Jesus. Also see historical UFO sigtings. Flying, glowing, humming metallic disks that skirit through the skies with lightening speed, powered by intelligent creatures, leaves very little to interpretation.

On other words, you�re making up a whole new field of physics here to get away from such unpleasantness as the speed of light being a cap to travel. What exactly is your �evidence�? Is it based on any kind of math and science or is it there because without a �magic space drive� the whole alien thing becomes increasingly unlikely?

The physics you learnt is already obsolete. Research on the cutting edge of quantum physics; superstring, wormholes and superluminal.

You are a moderator, to you it is evidence;
I am an engineer, to me it is wishful thinking.

John Mack, is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard. Edgar Mitchell is a famous astronaut. Philip J Corso was the national security advisor. Dr M Kaku is a co-founding physicist of superstring theory. Who are you again?

You state that the material on UFO/ET does not meet your definition of evidence. As we have established, you have not even done basic research into UFO/ET. What you really should be saying, UFO/ET does not meet your definition of reality. Too bad.



[edit on 28-9-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Do ETs exist? We cannot prove that they do, we cannot prove that they do not.

Whether we were put here by GOD, developed from one single-celled organism, or are the result of an ETs experiment , I personally would like to think that we are not the only planet in the entire universe that is able to host life-forms. We may never know the truth, we may find out tomorrow, its hard to tell. When and if that day comes that we will find the truth, we shall finally be able to put the question rest.

Keep the thought in check, and stay one step ahead of the game.

-Jonathesis

Delirious:

3. If you had technology and knowledge as to eradicate global poverty, usher in an age of equanimity and prosperity for all, would you hide it?

That in now way, would benefit the government.

4. If you could enlighten the world with knowledge of space-brothers, higher cultures and higher forms of spirituality, to answers many of our
questions and to bring greater purpose and meaning to our lives, why wouldn't you do it?


Exactly why wouldnt they? Thats what the question here is.

Other than those two points i agree.

You are missing the points in these two. They are not suppose to benefit the government, they benefit the people. So why the cover-up, and henceforth robbing the people of a glorious age? This is another motivation for maintaing secrecy

I�m not clipping the rest of your post out disagreement, just for briefness I�m quoting the relevant part to debate. In fact any one of your ideas, or combinations of ideas could be correct. We really won�t know until such time as the truth is revealed, and even then I doubt that we will know everything. It may be lost forever, time immemorial, or need not know.

But we are a hard headed race. Yes, many would accept the fact of an alien presence. But weigh those numbers in comparison to the people who would in no way give acceptance to such knowledge. For a fair reactive comparison you might take a look at our society�s problems with racism. Take a trip into the heart of Georgia (no offense to anyone in Georgia) and ask someone what they think of African Americans. Better yet, ask just about any Harley Davidson fanatic what he thinks of Honda. Granted, it�s fair to say that we won�t have to integrate such a civilization into society akin to �Alien Nation� et al.

But look around, hints are given to what sort of reaction would take place right here on the board if you take the time to really examine how people approach the knowledge. There are people who would accept, people who wouldn�t believe it no matter what, some who would want to go to war. And then you�re going to have the one�s running around screaming, �OMG! The aliens are here, the government�s been covering up for years!� like stark raving mad lunatics.

I must agree though that it would not be all chaos, maybe not at first. Most of the reaction is going to depend on the implications of the information, and we can only hypothesize on that information else we might be able to say for sure. Like said elsewhere in this post, it may be to the point where they no longer can release the information for fear that the general public would see the placed government as loosing trustworthiness for them hiding the information for so long. This is where even the people who would accept the information of aliens would become split in their beliefs.

I understand what you are saying, but I believe these fears of mass-psychosis and chaos are nothing more than hype. From what I have gathered from popular psychology, most people would react to it, as any global event. The people of today, exist in their own bubbles, ignorant and obilvious of the outside universe. Engrossed in their own ego, routines, opinions and antics, and self-serving purposes. Unless, this ET disclosure affects them directly and penetrates their bubble, most people will just trivialise it.
Again, a fair proportion of society believes in ET''s contacting us, yet most of them are not concerned with the deeper implications and ramafications, and on a personal level, lead the same lives as any other. The knowledge of ET is thus reduced to just any other piece of information.

Another fear, is the collapse of religion. This is also an overblown scenorio. Most eastern religions, already have a concept of sky-people, star-people or gods. While the bible has a concept of angels. This really was put into perspective for me, when I heard an Islamic fanatic telling me how ET's do exist, because the Quran also speaks of them.
ET disclosure will be taken in by everyone and tailored to fit their own mindset. My objection is to peoples naivity in thinking the governments cover-up is for their greater good. That is absolutely ludicrous.

[edit on 28-9-2004 by Indigo_Child]

I have read a statistic that 80% of people would change their religious belief in some way if evidence came forward that proves the existence of aliens.

Yes I imagine that they would. I'm wondering what religious belief
they would still have left.(personal thought)

I hope a UFO lands on Pat Robertsons Lawn.

Indigo Child, I have looked for some sort of evidence in the �MJ-12 Files� on several occasions. Typical of what I have seen is one person named Boylan who wants to sell me books, and his story about a �Dr. Wolf� who is a physicist, physician, lawyer (and probably butcher and candlestick-maker, too)

What all that stuff boils down to (as far as I�m concerned) is people writing novels and claiming that they�re the truth. That�s not evidence. Where are the machines? Where are the pieces of metal? How is it that every time someone asks for some hard evidence that answer is always �they�re hiding all the evidence�?

Every single one of the Disclosure Project witnesses that I am familiar with is the same way. All they do is talk about this guy they know or how they saw this thing, or whatever. Those are stories, not evidence. And the fact that some of them have BS, MS, or PhD after their names doesn�t give them any more credibility; if it did, then other scientists would buy their stuff! What would give them credibility is evidence, not tales. If you read Dr Greer�s intro, his �120 hours of digital videotape evidence� are really 120 hours of testimony. I can get 120 hours of testimony -- with equal fervor -- at a tent revival. Again, no evidence. Nothing but talk.

Indigo Child, what I am or what I do is irrelevant to any discussion, although I am a logistics engineer for The Boeing Company in Arizona. But most engineers, whether they are mechanicals, electronics, logistics, civil, or even software engineers, tend to be they type of folks that work with things. We make theory into products, and, based on the people I know, just tend to be skeptical of things we can�t measure.

I�m not saying that people who think differently from me are ignorant or wrong or bad guys or anything like that -- they just think differently from me. Engineers would love an alien spaceship; it would be the ultimate Christmas toy for us. If there were such things as alien spaceships, every engineer I can think of would trade body parts for a chance to sit down with the schematics (preferred) or a screwdriver (if necessary).

I read Asimov�s �Caves of Steel� when I was ten years old, and have been an inveterate science fiction reader for fifty years. Nothing would make me happier and more excited to get to know about extraterrestrial intelligences. But so far, I don�t believe that any (if they exist, and they probably do) have visited the Earth, stories to the contrary.

What all that stuff boils down to (as far as I�m concerned) is people writing novels and claiming that they�re the truth. That�s not evidence. Where are the machines? Where are the pieces of metal? How is it that every time someone asks for some hard evidence that answer is always �they�re hiding all the evidence�?

Well, what you consider hard evidence, like fragments of ET alloys, physical UFO's, or EBE genetics, will not be available in the public domain. If they were, the government would not be doing a good job of the cover-up.
To put this into perspective for you, do you recall the downing of the stealth B52 in Kosovo, and the subsequent campaign by the government to retrieve it/destroy it.

The offical disclosure of ET was made in 1947 Roswell, with the discovery of ET metal alloys and which was handled by civlians and military. This metal was as thin as foil, it would would not burn or tear, and if dented, it would return to it's original shape. Today, we have alloy technology that demonstate the same properties; shape-memory alloys.

Billy Meier also has ET metal alloy evidence, which was concluded by an engineer of IBM to not have been manufactured on Earth.

Every single one of the Disclosure Project witnesses that I am familiar with is the same way. All they do is talk about this guy they know or how they saw this thing, or whatever. Those are stories, not evidence. And the fact that some of them have BS, MS, or PhD after their names doesn�t give them any more credibility; if it did, then other scientists would buy their stuff! What would give them credibility is evidence, not tales. If you read Dr Greer�s intro, his �120 hours of digital videotape evidence� are really 120 hours of testimony. I can get 120 hours of testimony -- with equal fervor -- at a tent revival. Again, no evidence. Nothing but talk.

Testimony is evidence, and would be considered legitimate in a court of law. Yes, credibility of witnesses does matter, as does the weight. Good luck with your tent revival.

Indigo Child, what I am or what I do is irrelevant to any discussion, although I am a logistics engineer for The Boeing Company in Arizona. But most engineers, whether they are mechanicals, electronics, logistics, civil, or even software engineers, tend to be they type of folks that work with things. We make theory into products, and, based on the people I know, just tend to be skeptical of things we can�t measure.

Can you measure happiness? If not, should you be skeptical of it? You make theory into product. Yet, when you can't make product into theory, product cannot exist?

I�m not saying that people who think differently from me are ignorant or wrong or bad guys or anything like that -- they just think differently from me.

They see the product. You need to see the theory before the product. Everything needs to be boxed, labeled and put in a filing cabinet. It seems like your way of thinking only complicates matters, when otherwise, they are simple. Try this: "Civlizations that evolved in others parts of the universe" here is a cliche: "The universe is vast, we cannot possibly be the only ones"

Engineers would love an alien spaceship; it would be the ultimate Christmas toy for us. If there were such things as alien spaceships, every engineer I can think of would trade body parts for a chance to sit down with the schematics (preferred) or a screwdriver (if necessary).

This is what is trapping you in your own pattern of thinking. You inner-child desire to play and take things apart, and the inner-child tantrums, when you can't. To me it seems like your skepticism is nothing more than the frusration to understand. Step out of this rigid pattern and approach it from another angle, for a chance to understand.

[edit on 28-9-2004 by Indigo_Child]

[edit on 28-9-2004 by Indigo_Child]

The government is run by a group of technocratic thugs who think everone else in america are stupider than they are and they have the right to "CENSOR" any information they feel like, coz they think people will panic, go crazy, balh ..blah..?
Who do they think they represent??.......the people !
I am sure that the politicians don't know abotu these stuff i.It would probably be the people in the pentagon or some other stagnant office of power where the people never change.

Off The Street

If someone near and dear to you, someone you trusted, came to you with a story of UFO abduction, would you ask for physical evidence before believing?

Don't get me wrong I have a similar philosophy to yourself.

I, myself would have no reason to disbelieve my nearest and dearest, but would still have an air of doubt about there sanity, even though I want to believe.

Personally, I believe there are way to many strange occurances reported on this planet for there not to be something in it, they can't all be mad attention seekers.

: Between all of the answers in #2, and the possible microbes in the Mars meteor, increasing evidence of water on Mars, and possible life on Europa, this point seems to be correct.

Possible doesn�t mean correct; it means possible

True, but it takes it out of the realm of pure fantasy, and puts it into the realm of plausibility.

Government documents
where? ,

www.majesticdocuments.com... is a good start, as well as those related to UFOs that have been obtained as a result of the FOI act.

sightings
William Blake had sightings of angels in the trees outside his house. Anyone can claim to have a sighting or even believe they had a sighting.

witnesses
see above,

abductees
see above,

True, but we are talking about millions of witnesses, throughout time, in many different nations and cultures (and religious beliefs) that all describe similar beings and craft.

photos
conveniently fuzzy and out of focus

video
conveniently fuzzy and our of focus

Well you are capturing something you didn't expect to see, so it isn't exactly a professional job....

gun-camera footage
where?

NASA footage
where? ,

A simple search of ATS or Google would show results, STS-80 is a good start. Several video documentaries have shown the gun camera footage, which is rather remarkable.

highly credible witnesses including pilots, senior ranking officers, even ex-presidents
Jimmy Carter is �credible�? ,

Credible enough to be trusted with his finger on the trigger of one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals...

centuries-old works of art
interpreted as such by people who really want there to be UFOs all supporting such craft and beings.
No. They all suggest such to people who are suggestible to begin with.

I'll let the photos do the answering to that one...

The Betty Hill starmap
Do you mean the Betty Hill Starmap as interpreted by Marjorie Fish or the Betty Hill starmap as interpreted by Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg? C�mon, Gazrok, even people who believe in that stuff can�t agree which star is which. What do the astronomers to whom she showed the starmap have to say?

I've seen enough, and by other astronomers than Fish, to show it as more than coincidence, especially given the other references to the Zeti-Reticuli system. There were even some threads here on ATS if you'd like to see other named astronomers supporting the map.

As for the ability to travel solar systems, much of the evidence suggests that they do not travel in a linear point A to point B fashion, but instead use some kind of "space folding" to temporarily warp gravity/space/time to bring point B to point A, attach itself to point B, then "snap back" to the destination point B. With a travel time of virtually 0, it certainly increases the odds of such visitation.
On other words, you�re making up a whole new field of physics here to get away from such unpleasantness as the speed of light being a cap to travel. What exactly is your �evidence�? Is it based on any kind of math and science or is it there because without a �magic space drive� the whole alien thing becomes increasingly unlikely?

It isn't "magic" physics, but quantum physics. It's based on the ideas of Einstein and expanded by modern physicists such as Hawkings.

Gazrok, each of us is entitled to our opinion. I think the reason we disagree is our basic outlook.

You are a moderator, to you it is evidence;
I am an engineer, to me it is wishful thinking.
I guess we�ll just have to agree to disagree.

To anyone, it's evidence, just to you it isn't very good evidence. We can agree to disagree....but it's been a nice exchange of if this, then that. Being a moderator doesn't make me believe or disbelieve anymore than anyone else. In fact, I'm often more of a skeptic first, even though I've had one, and only one sighting myself, that couldn't be identified (and never really could) as anything else. I've grown up as a military brat, I've lived around aircraft all my life, my father even works on the Raptor for Lockheed. I know we've got some pretty cool stuff in the works. But I also know that this is more than enough evidence to show that we are indeed being visited by others. I also concede that about 90% or more of the modern sightings/accounts are either outright bunk, or simple misidentifications. But, for that 10% that isn't, it simply won't go away, no matter how much we wrap ourself in the shroud of our self-claimed knowledge of the way things are or should be...



[edit on 28-9-2004 by Gazrok]