Cameron calls on Islam to embrace democracy and reject extremism

Originally posted by Germanicus
Im more worried about slipping over on dog [SNIP] and being injured than Im worried about 'extremist's'

What a non-issue.

To be fair, a signifcant number of Islamic extremists do exist in the UK.

According to MI5, 4,000 British Muslims have received military training from the Taliban.

MI5 has estimated that up to 4,000 British Muslims had travelled to Pakistan and, before the fall of the Taliban, to Afghanistan for military training.

The Independent

They have also been busy trying to blow things up. It is important to remember that most Muslims immigrate to the UK to escape extremism but unfortunately a number of extremists immigrate as well.

MI5

The list of notable terrorist offences listed on the web site

* 27 February 2002

Moinul Abedin was sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment after being convicted of making large amounts of detonators and the explosive HMTD in a Birmingham house.

* 1 April 2003
Leicester residents Brahim Benmerzouga and Baghdad Merziane were each sentenced to 11 years' imprisonment for their roles in fundraising for Al Qaida and other extremist groups.

* 1 March 2005
Saajit Badat was imprisoned for 13 years following his admission that he had plotted with jailed shoe-bomber Richard Reid to destroy an airliner over the Atlantic.

* 13 April 2005
Kamel Bourgass was convicted of plotting to commit a public nuisance by the use of poisons and/or explosives to cause disruption, fear or injury. He was already serving a life sentence for the murder of PC Stephen Oake.

* 7 February 2006
Radical London cleric Abu Hamza was convicted of incitement to murder and sentenced to 7 years.

* 7 November 2006
Al Qaida operative Dhiren Barot was sentenced to a minimum of 30 years' imprisonment after admitting a plot to attack UK and US targets using a "dirty bomb" and gas-filled limousines.

* 30 April 2007
Five men were imprisoned for life after being convicted of a plot to attack targets such as shopping centres and nightclubs using fertiliser-based explosives; two others were acquitted.

* 15 June 2007
Seven men were jailed for a total of 136 years for their involvement in Dhiren Barot's "dirty bomb" plot and "Gas Limos Project".

* 5 July 2007
Three men were imprisoned for up to 10 years after being convicted of using the Internet to promote terrorism.

* 11 July 2007
The four would-be suicide bombers of 21 July 2005 were given life sentences following their convictions on charges of conspiracy to murder. A fifth man involved in the plot was convicted in November 2007.

* 26 July 2007
Five students were convicted on charges of possessing material for terrorist purposes with the intention of going to terrorist training camps in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

* 9 Jan 2008
Sohail Anjum Qureshi, an Al Qaida-trained terrorist intent on carrying out an act of terrorism overseas, was jailed for four and a half years.

* 18 February 2008
Five conspirators were convicted of plotting to kidnap and behead a British soldier and were sentenced to terms of between two years and life.

* 17 December 2008
Bilal Abdulla, an Iraqi citizen who worked in a hospital in Paisley, Scotland, was sentenced to 32 years' imprisonment for his role in terrorist attacks carried out in London and Glasgow International Airport in June 2007.

* 14 September 2009
In one of a series of trials, three men who plotted in 2006 to blow up aircraft mid-flight between the UK, America and Canada by using liquid explosives were jailed for life.

* 8 July 2010
Ibrahim Savant, Arafat Khan and Waheed Zaman were convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for conspiracy to murder persons unknown. By this point a total of twelve people had been convicted in seven trials for terrorism-related offences in connection with the 2006 aircraft bomb plot.

* 2 November 2010
Roshonara Choudhry, a student from East London, was convicted of attempting to murder the MP Stephen Timms after being inspired by extremist sermons she had watched on the Internet.

To pretend that Islamic extrmism isn't a problem is to ignore the fact that almost all plots are being stopped by the security forces before they are carried out.

The 'lone gunman' type of plots, as occured in France recently however is almost impossible to stop.

reply to post by ollncasino


democracy is a reasonably new idea for Muslim countries, and with somewhat different values at times than the west (ie: woman running around naked in the streets is not seen as a positive!) democracy has to find it way forward in our cultures, no two cultures have exactly the same majority ideals, so the results of democracy might not look exactly the same from one country to the next. But it needs time, and the ability to be left alone for it work. Just as the west needed.

I agree there have always been extremism in our countries. And majority of the time the extremism you find is all about power and nothing about religion, religion is only a tool for power and control.

That said, for a while, democratic ideals were taking hold, new systems of government were being considered, and extremism for the most part was on the fringe not in mainstream. Yes there were sectarian differences and prejudices, there always will be that, but the extremism found today was not a mainstream. This "purging of Islam" as a mainstream thought came out of Saudia, and it is believed by many to have, even at the beginning, been something western powers were involved in. (I am speaking of Wahabism, which is what you fear)

Saudia and the West made partners long ago, this is fact, and they are both equally responsible for the type of extremism found today. They are both funding it, they are both trying to spread it, both are using it for their own ends... the desire for power.

From my standpoint, I do not know where Saudia ends and the West begins, or where the west beings and Saudia ends. They both appear to want the exact same thing, and both seem to think the way to get it is through pushing the extreme ideology. Whether in Syria, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq.. the name of the country appears not to matter, they want it spread, because, through it, they believe they can control us all.


We will take our blame, but you all need to take yours. If left alone, extremism as seen today, would go back to the fringe elements..or at least stay in their own countries like Saudia, but as it is, literally billions of dollars are being pushed into it... that makes it almost impossible to fight.

Imagine groups of Christian extremists, who were given billions of dollars to spread their ideology, then more billions to arm them and then let loose upon society.

When you pump money into anything indiscriminately, they will find the ignorant and convert them to their way of thinking, and before you know it you have an army!

We need to learn our way in this century... it cannot be imposed, it has to be worked out by us, through us. We will figure it out, but we are too busy fighting everyone currently to do so. The west literally has to stay out of our sectarian differences, and stay out of our governments for us to find our own way.

And if you do not like the way someone wants to do commerce, then do commerce with someone else, or try to figure out a middle ground with the people you are doing business with. I know this has everything to do with business and nothing else.

You all do not care about us as people, you care about how to purchase our resources, and how to do so as cheaply as possible. Perhaps doing that on our terms, finding the middle ground, or not at all are good options to take here.This is what all these wars are about.

Originally posted by Jameela
I agree there have always been extremism in our countries. And majority of the time the extremism you find is all about power and nothing about religion, religion is only a tool for power and control.

Isn't that the way of it everywhere?

A cynical person may however have laid the same accusation at Muhammad. At the time, there was nothing unusual or special about Muhammad claiming his message was divine. The Arabian peninsula was full of holy men claiming to be prophets.

What set Muhammad apart from other religions however was his assertion that Allah was the only god and that religious power and secular power were one and the same. According to Muhammad, Islam was the state.

My point is, Islamic extremists are following Islam as was it was practised by Muhammad by using religion to gain secular power. Islam, as practised by Muhammad, sought to dominate both religion and politics.

There is no differentiation in Islam between political and religious power. Perhaps nowadays, many Muslims no longer agree with that but the fact remains that Muhammad sought to dominate both politics and religion power and he did so using military force when need so.

No, extremists are not following any teaching of the Messenger of God (saw)

I ask you please not to bring the Name of the Holy Prophet (saw) into this. I was waiting for your ulterior motive, and we just found it!

Until now it was a nice discussion, therefore I bid you good day, I will take part no further.

Originally posted by Jameela
No, extremists are not following any teaching of the Messenger of God (saw)

I'm glad that you think that way.

Unfortunately, Islamic extremists can find plentiful justification in the life of Muhammad as relayed by the Koran and the Hadiths to justify their violent behaviour.

I have taken the time to study Islam.

Originally posted by Jameela
I ask you please not to bring the Name of the Holy Prophet (saw) into this. I was waiting for your ulterior motive, and we just found it!

Until now it was a nice discussion, therefore I bid you good day, I will take part no further.

Fair enough. Its a strange discussion on Islamic extremism in which no one is allowed to talk about Muhammad or his violent acts though.

I'm just not sure if our actions are too hypocritical for us to start talking about embracing our way of democracy. We bomb Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya yet we support Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, 2 regimes just as guilty of oppressing democracy in their countries. Muslims around the world see this hypocrisy and will have little respect for Camerons floundering.

On his last trip to the middle east, Cameron took along 8 of Britain's largest arms dealers. Dealers who sell weapons to the middle eastern countries to use against their citizens.

What a hypercrit!!! This is a man, who's policies are the most entrenched and selfish since Thatcher! Being the stupid toff he is he doesn't seem to realise that he is an extremist in his own right!

reply to post by ollncasino


i can see how he has a vested interest in democracy. but the way i perceive islam it seems like a commune would be better than a republic. either way they both seem to support being assimilated by islam. democracy as defined seems like a legalese bordering on everyone having a right vs being entitled to a right vis a republic; this right is only in vote. american ideal of democracy and freedom is left of the magna carta. a subject can value their government and that is a good thing but to purport that corruption or other claims are because of a lack of embracing of democracy seems like a political sidestep.