The Solar Power Scam

In Victoria the feed in tariff rate was up to 60 cents per kilowatt hour fed back into the grid, but that program has now been closed, but those who signed up for it are still guaranteed to get that rate until 2024. The rate with a new program is 25 cents per kilowatt hour fed back into the grid. As far as I know, this was done because solar panels are getting cheaper and to save money. Both $0.60/kwh and $0.25/kwh are, as far as I know much higher than or slightly higher than the retail cost of electricity respectively. Both are much higher than the wholesale cost of electricity (in other words, you get to sell at retail prices essentially as a wholesaler - a bargain) so it's more than fair if you have installed solar panels and are receiving a feed-in tariff.

Disconnect from the grid entirely.

Use your solar panels off grid.

For more power at night use a 11.8 KW quiet diesel generator made by Kubota.

- SQ-1120 model -

Right except anything oil based is extremely uneconomic compared to the grid in practically all places. I'd rather get my electricity from coal mined in my own country over oil imported from some unstable country. Or better yet in the future (hopefully) from coal seam gas with CCS, IGCC with CCS, cogeneration from biomass, nuclear reactors, solar panels, and wind turbines.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Now don't take this the wrong way but, based on the figures you've quoted, you're using at least 4 times as much electrical energy as my humble abode and, if that's a typical demand in your part of the world, it's not surprising that you have a bit of an energy crisis in terms of costs and supply going on. The sort of peak demand you quoted would blow my service fuse and is typical of small factories that require CT metering because they don't make whole-current meters that large (100A is the norm here on a 415/240 system and many dwellings have just a single phase 60A max service = 14kW max).

That diversified maximum demand I quoted is a very rubbery figure determined by counting the number of customers on a distribution substation's domestic distributor (normally 400A max 415V) and using thermal maximum demand recorders at the peak time of the year which is a May-June cold dark wintery evening when everyone is cooking dinner and warming their homes up (say 6-7PM). That peak demand is divided by the number of customers on the distributor to come up with the peak I quoted of 3-5kW per dwelling on average and the figure is very sensitive to many socio-geographic factors with less affluent communities using the least and the 'silvertail' communities managing 5kW or even more. But - that's the peak of the entire day and lasts only 1-2 hours. I average under 20kWh/day in summer and around 25kWh/day in winter (I use a woodheater and occasionally a thermostat controlled panel heater for some background warmth at the far end of the house).

The reason for the peak occuring in May and not July-August when it's coldest is that most people haven't got their firewood or other cold weather mitigation alternatives ready for the first cold snap so they drag that old electric monster heater out of the garage for a quick solution till they get organized.

I know people who live in the bush where grid supply is not an option so they've spent $60000-$100000 installing stand-alone solar systems (deep cycle batteries). They've learnt to be very frugal with their electrical usage, using bottled gas for cooking (trucked in), solar water heating, high efficiency appliances and they get by quite well without spas, heated swimming pools, aircon etc. We are blessed with a warm temperate climate and lots of sunshine here though which makes modest grid-connected solar installations attractive and cost-effective which isn't the case for all parts of the planet.

The DC transmission thing: there's a point, in terms of distance and underwater/overhead construction, where DC becomes more attractive than AC but I'm talking about major EHV transmission, not distribution. The DC link here was, and maybe still is, the longest one ever constructed and an AC link over the distance was completely infeasible/impractical to even attempt (think about the capacitance of a 300km+ submarine cable). That cable carries around 1500A at 400kV (600MW) on a single conductor with inverter stations at each end capable of turning around in a matter of minutes. It cost near a $billion to construct initially.

reply to post by Pilgrum

When I was typing that post up, I was thinking about the older homes in this area that still use 100A services (a few are still 60A, but they're getting rare). So no, not taking anything wrong; I even posted that if one were to drop the power requirements, the cost would drop considerably.

I tend to over-design... that means two things: First, that the cost is a bit higher initially, and second, that what I design never stops working. My concern over the peak power requirements is in the electronics used to transform the DC into AC power. This is a typically hot process anyway (the power ratings are based more on cooling ability for the components than anything else) and the heat produced by a sudden short will overheat components. The question is how much and for how long. Most equipment has some measure of resilience to overload, but continued overloads are not advised at all. Thus, I want the maximum peak power to be either at or above the rating of a main breaker, which here is standardized at 200 amps.

If you are using a 100A breaker, you can cut my power figures in half for the inverter, and that alone will save some big bucks. If you are sure of your average energy usage, you can make similar adjustments as well to both the solar array and the batteries needed. In the end, all those calculations are based on what is typical here, and based on your season-to-month statements it is apparent you are not in the Northern Hemisphere and thus not in the US.

You also need to verify, then, the frequency of your standard AC line; appliances and other gadgets are designed for use with a specific frequency of power input. Putting 60 Hz into a device designed for 50 Hz can have unpleasant consequences depending on the device.

I am steadily working on a design to get myself off the grid as well, of course over-designed as I mentioned above, but with different electrical input than solar. The common need is an inverter, and I am playing with a design that uses a variation of a switching power supply and multiple floating voltage references to produce the AC supply directly. If that works out, I'm sure everyone on ATS will see it.

Incidentally, I am working with a 30-battery bank of 8-Ds, giving me 360V nominal (potential for 430V) for a minimum back-up of 15 hours plus... acceptable with a steadier source of DC power. I am also not interested in tying my system back into the grid; I will probably just install a 100A breaker in my box to be used as input rather than output. One major caution with this idea for anyone reading: Never, ever, have the auxiliary and main breakers on at the same time! 180 degrees out of phase would show a dead short and you have no simple way to know what the phase relationship is without expensive monitoring equipment.

TheRedneck

I'm confused...is solar energy worth it? We use around 1800 watts a month.

oilprice.com...

The Era of renewable is just around the corner! Actually it's been just around that same corner for 40 years , but nobody managed to go around that corner for some strange reason somehow ...

It's always around that corner but it never works.

You don't understand the electricity market, Australia is blessed with endless amounts of sunshine, except when it's cloudy or night. With the amount of solar on the roofs eventually you will see a reverse of the traditional demand. The increase in 'cheap solar during the day means that power companies are selling electricity cheaper than they can make it. Guess what happens when power companies lose money? They close power stations. Guess which power stations they close? Expensive coal fired base load power. Guess what happens when they close and the solar or the grid fails? Power outages.

However, it is political suicide for a government to allow blackouts (as is proven in south Australia recently). Why is that? Well because you guys are the absolute minority in your opinion and people want reliable electricity.

So we need a balance right now of coal and gas to maintain reliability and the power companies need to invest in future technology to meet the greenhouse gas reduction targets and these technologies plus maintaining base load power with smaller margins to ensure a reliable source of electricity is not free.

The reason the major players were forced into domestic solar was if you can't beat them, join them but do it better, if you can find a better deal long term with a fly by night power company fill your boots.

Feed in tariffs were government subsidised to get solar on the roofs, it worked but they don't last for ever, when the big tariffs ended the power companies had to get ready for low income users at risk of being unable to pay bills, they reached out to their customers, good luck with Mr Solar there looking after vulnerable customers.

As far as Solar, you don't buy solar to make money, not on your roof anyway, at best it will offset your bill IF you do your heavy hitting electricity use during the day, if you don't, for the 6 hours of sunshine the power companies have lost money they recoup in the peak hours of breakfast and dinner when demand spikes, the market drives the price, not the power companies. If you run solar and air conditioning, does your aircon match your solar? Do you only run it off the solar? Where do you expect the electricity to come from when more people have aircon that solar??

If you work night shift you may see a bigger benefit that a a working family who are out all day and home when the sun isn't shining.

A battery is less than useless, you will get an hour at best if you have an electric oven/cooker some computers and televisions.

The best thing you could do with solar and a battery is to have gas heating and low voltage lights, no tv and go to the pub for cool, food and telly.

Seriously ill informed moaning about electricity prices focussed on the wrong people, what kind of prime minister signs up for an unachievable reduction in greenhouse gasses when there isn't a technology (short of nuclear) that can achieve it sustainably.

Oh and you can't turn Coal power off and on, if a cloud comes over you may have less than a minute to cover for the solar before half the city shuts down, unacceptable so you need coal there waiting at a loss for the inevitable demand and price spike.

a reply to: liejunkie01

I do not want the power company even considering me as a customer or client.

Hope you don't live in the Good ol US FREE Capitalist country. If you do, then you HAVE to be a customer or lose your home in some if not most of the states.

Cape woman known for 'off the grid' stance is evicted from home

MURICA home of the free lobbyist .

a reply to: interupt42

That story is lacking some details. While I feel for the lady, the bank foreclosed on her home, which means she didnt really own it it the first place. Did she make her payments in a timely matter? Were there any stipulations about having electricity and running water in the agreements and the housing authority in the area?

In my opinion she picked the wrong area to live off grid.

The difference between her and me is that I do want power and water. Just not tied into the corporate system. Which may be a little tough with the regulations, but where there is a will there is a way. A person just needs to be smart and use the system to their advantage instead of the cold should screw them approach.

While it could be argued that someone should have the right to live the way they want, she lived in a residential area with no running water. Out here in the country you can have a water well and have your water needs taken care of with no penalty, although a proper septic system may be a requirement.

a reply to: liejunkie01

Actually it says the COUNTY not the bank foreclosed on her home, so maybe she did own it.

a reply to: NuclearPaul

So much wrong with your post.

First, when you install a PV-system you contract with the utilities company for like 10 or 20 years. They agree to buy your generated power for a fixed price.

So if you are thinking of going solar, remember that your bills will be higher if you allow them to "pay" you for what you supply.

BS. I get 43cents/kWh.
I buy for like 22cents/kWh.

I make 21 cents profit with every single kWh I deliver to myself, using your example. The pv-system (not solar) as already paid off since I installed it. It´s not really fair but this is how market works.

And to pre-counter the idea that pv-panels never pay back the energy that was needed for production and transport: It´s 4-5 years and they are even. A bit quicker if you have a good system with no shadows and good ventilation. A bit slower if not.

a reply to: NuclearPaul

Also, learn the differences between the contracts.

-You can have 100% delivery contracts
-You can use the energy you currently generate to power your stuff and the rest is drawn from the mains. If you produce more than you need you automaticly sell it.


What that meter above does is not different from the old ones. They now display the amount of power you delivered. Contrary to what you want to establish back then with reverse-locked meters, you actually gave away energy for free if you had such a meter and they did not change it.

There is no conspiracy. At least learn into the stuff before you make such utterly wrong conclusions and a thread on ATS.

originally posted by: NuclearPaul


The "smart meters" forcing everyone to install are to prevent people from using the old meters to "sell" back electricity to the grid at the same price we buy it from them.

NO. The meter shows the amount, the price is not stored in the meter FFS. It´s in a database and your contract also. Stop making stuff up or at least wrap your head around how it really works.

You won't get "paid" for electricity you supply to the grid, but instead you will save whatever rate the power companies are charging you.

That´s the dumbest idea ever when you actually sell for more than you buy. If you get less for producing than you buy, this still makes sense.

The reason I get 43cents and you buy it for let´s say 21 cents is that it´s subsidized or no one will ever put panels on their home to get off coal and oil. It´s market related. After your systems contract runs out you are of course getting way less. But you can also store it for yourself and use it.

It´s part of a math excercise, in Europe it´s called EEG-law.
You really should have informed yourself via books and laws, not what someone tells you or you think figured out for yourself while the rest is gleefully unaware how dumb we are. Not.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: liejunkie01

I do not want the power company even considering me as a customer or client.

Hope you don't live in the Good ol US FREE Capitalist country. If you do, then you HAVE to be a customer or lose your home in some if not most of the states.

Cape woman known for 'off the grid' stance is evicted from home

MURICA home of the free lobbyist .

A friend of mine has that problem but as long as you are connected and run one 25 watt bulb a couple hours a day they can do nothing.
His home has solar battery system and uses low voltage led lighting along with ground cooling and solar heating and even his hot tub and hot water system are solar heated. His home is cooled in the summer and warmed in the winter with a earth tube system.
www.rehau.com...

His water well is solar and wind powered 24v system.

His problem had always has been losing grid power for days to weeks at a time in the rural area where he lives and he always get onto the electric company for this everytime it happens.

The joke has been on the power company as the first year they put in a smart meter they changed it 6 time because they thought it was defective.

old electricity meter like this:

The way to avoid this scam is to not install the import/export meter. Keep the old one instead. You won't get "paid" for electricity you supply to the grid, but instead you will save whatever rate the power companies are charging you. See, the spinning disc you see in them will actually start spinning the opposite way when you start supplying power to the grid. It's like winding back the odometer on a car, except perfectly legal. This denies the power companies the opportunity to set different prices for what you and they supply, meaning if they raise their prices, the amount you save increases too.

NO! its AC power not DC.
if you wire a drill or fan with the red & blue the other
way around the drill will No turn the other way.
(just check't it to make shore)
it will turn normally. so you will pay Them for what you give them.
thats why they dont say any thing.

a reply to: ANNED


Thats awesome but I bet that cost a pretty penny.

a reply to: interupt42

For 20-30k you can draw plenty of power...

originally posted by: buddha

NO! its AC power not DC.
if you wire a drill or fan with the red & blue the other
way around the drill will No turn the other way.
(just check't it to make shore)
it will turn normally. so you will pay Them for what you give them.
thats why they dont say any thing.

You need to look a little more deeply into the principle of operation employed by these older disc type simple energy meters as they are not like your traditional induction motor and do respond faithfully in terms of direction of energy flow. Many meters were fitted with a simple detent that prevented the disc doing more than 1 revolution in reverse particularly in the case of 3 phase whole current meters that could reverse with major phase loading/power factor imbalances.

The big problem with exporting energy in reverse through a simple meter and equipment is that, in the case of the grid supply being off, that local generation will still be energising the mains creating a hazard to any workers investigating the fault. So your local generation needs to be able to sense the grid and shut down in a blackout. The grid connect inverter on solar installations performs that function automatically but other home-brew schemes like an induction motor driven to a positive load angle by a wind turbine would be problematic in terms of safety. Then there's also the issue of re-synchronising to the grid when it's restored.

a reply to: ANNED

The supply authorities in this part of the world must have noticed that rising energy retail prices were forcing a lot of struggling customers to reduce their usage to the bare minimum simply because they couldn't afford it along with other luxuries like food and consequently revenue was affected (less of it). Their solution was to implement a 'service' charge which is a daily fee for simply having the mains connected whether energy was being used or not. The 'service charge' applies for everyone unless the mains are disconnected from the premises (by request or for non-payment) and then there's a disconnection fee as well of course.

They must have all attended the banker's school for methods of fleecing the customer. This service charge applies to private homeowners who export alternative generation like solar as well of course.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: ANNED


Thats awesome but I bet that cost a pretty penny.

He is a general and electrical contractor and uses his system to show customers what can be done with off grid systems.
His systems have long since paid for themselves.