If God created us. Who created God.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I will offer you a small prophecy concerning the contributors of this forum:

You will have the very secret of life brought before you in plain English;
But you will trample it under your feet.

You will witness with your eyes the veritable angels;
But you will esteem them to be ignorant men, or liars.

You will have the gospel expounded in your own eloquent tongue;
But you will deny every revelation.

The mysteries of the Universe will appear before you and offer themselves;
But you will not notice a single one of them.

Arkaleus.

Why?

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I will offer you a small prophecy concerning the contributors of this forum:

You will have the very secret of life brought before you in plain English;
But you will trample it under your feet.

You will witness with your eyes the veritable angels;
But you will esteem them to be ignorant men, or liars.

You will have the gospel expounded in your own eloquent tongue;
But you will deny every revelation.

The mysteries of the Universe will appear before you and offer themselves;
But you will not notice a single one of them.

Arkaleus.

Why?

Because we are all lost, and for some reason are also in fear of direction.
Probably because all of the directions we have been given want us to remain under this slave mentality while we are spinning out of control, and nobody is there to make decisions when we need help.

God is your dream, you are God's nightmare.

It's all in our heads, a self induced existence, all the way around.

Originally posted by Submersible
God is your dream, you are God's nightmare.

:shk:

We are God's dream--but we have made God into our every nightmare.

Here you will find the following statement:

Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.

Google this phrase:

'probably will never be proven' or 'will probably never be proven'

mix and match those words--see what comes up

Truly-- they don't matter. It's an interesting mental exercise, and one in which I engage quite a bit, and no doubt will later in this post, but the deep questions-- what is the true nature of the universe? how did it come to be? if it was not created, then how did it just come to be? if it was created, then who by? and how then did the creator come to be?-- all of these questions simply cannot be answered, and it seems that all attempts to do so, or more accurately, all attempts to assert the absolute certainty of this or that answer, lead to little but antagonism.

I understand the curiosity that leads one to seek an answer. The universe is, when one really stops and thinks about it, bizarre. We can look around and see this planet, and it at least is relatively self-contained. Its distance from its sun and its orbit and its satellite and its composition all come together to create conditions that are conducive to the life that exists upon it, and the life that exists upon it is interconnected in ways, often straightforward and less often oblique, that at least make some sort of sense, either as a creation or as a happenstance.

Similarly, the nature of this solar system-- the composition of the sun, its luminosity, the spectrum of its light, the force of its gravity-- ties in neatly with the planets orbiting it. Again, it can be viewed equally well either as a creation or as a happenstance, or maybe more accurately as a seeming happenstance as the result of a series of events complex beyond our understanding, but nonetheless ordered.

But behind all of these questions that cannot objectively be answered, but for which answers nonetheless are contrived, asserted, defended, fought over and killed over, are even deeper questions regarding the nature of the universe itself, its existence, the "space" in which either it exists or that is defined by its existence and particularly its origin, or the seeming impossibility of it not having an origin.


While this is all fertile ground for rumination, there really are no objective answers to be had. We simply don't have enough information to justify any of the myriad answers. Ah, but that, for whatever reason, doesn't stop people from contriving, asserting, defending, fighting over and killing over the answers that they, for whatever reason, have chosen to adopt.

That's something that I've never understood. Why, in the face of an utter lack of evidence to substantiate one answer, would anyone choose one anyway? It's self-evident that this act of choosing an answer is ultimately harmful to many who do so. History is filled with examples of those who have fought and killed and died because somebody else's answer didn't correspond with theirs when the fact is that none of the answers have any more or less evidence to support them. Objectively, there's little reason to favor one over another, yet people continue to adopt one and to attack all those who, each for their own reasons, have chosen to adopt another. Whether it's Romans and Jews or Romans and Christians or Christians and Pagans or Christians and Mohammedans or theists and atheists, it seems that there are always people seeking to assert the absolute truth of their adopted belief, even to the point of killing for it. I've truly never understood why.


Okay. That rant out of the way--

Is the universe all there is, or is there something outside of it? Semantically, it could be said that the universe is indeed all there is, but that's not really an answer. We have decreed that the entire range of space/time in which we find ourselves is "the universe" but we have yet to discover its boundaries. Is it infinite? How is that even possible? If it's not infinite, then it has boundaries, and a boundary are defined as the line or plane that separates this from that. If the universe is "this," then what is "that?"

How did our universe come to be? If it's indeed all there is, then before it was, there was nothing. How could there be nothing, and how could something come to be where there was previously nothing? But if there was a "something" in which our universe came to be, then what is the nature of that something? Where did it come from? And aren't we then just pushing the unanswerable question back one step? Rather than asserting that our universe came to be from nothing, we're asserting that it came to be from something, which in itself came to be from... ? Or maybe our universe has simply always been. But again, how is that possible, and isn't that simply sidestepping the question? Anything that 'is' at least implies the possibility that it potentially 'is not'-- anything that "was" also, logically, at least potentially, "was not." Wouldn't it be true that if we decree that it absolutely and always "was" and never even possibly "was not," then isn't that contrary to our very notion of existence? If it "was" then it at least potentially "was not." A thing exists in the sense that it exists as opposed to not existing. (I can't quite get my head around this last concept, but I know there's something there...)

And finally, on topic, if the universe at one point did not exist and somehow came to be through the efforts of some being(s) or force, what is the nature of that being(s)? In what sort of space/time does he/she/it/they exist? If he/she/it/they created the universe, then axiomatically, he/she/it/they exist outside of the universe that we know, but that just brings us back to the same questions-- how can there be anything outside of the universe? But how can there not be? And if there is something outside of the universe, and that something is the home of some creator, then where did that something come from? How? In what does that something exist? What are its boundaries? What is outside of it? Is it boundless? How could that be?


For me, the answers to all of those questions is a resounding, heartfelt and certain "I don't know."

They might be intriguing, but we really don't have any answers. And again, it seems self-evident that many of the interpersonal problems that plague both message boards and the real world are engendered by those who cannot or will not simply say "I don't know," but instead insist on saying that one particular viewpoint is right, and all the others are wrong.

It doesn't matter why we're here or how we came to be here-- all that matters is what we do while we're here.

I think I might go get a pizza....

Pondering this as I was driving back from the grocery store...

For the sake of the thread, I'll make a few assumptions, the first, of course, being that a god exists. Further, I'll have to assume that this god came into being at some point in some way. Actually, granting the first assumption, I find the second one to be entirely logical. I've never cared much for the assertion that god has always existed, in part because it seems like a convenient way to avoid having to address this very issue and in part because it just doesn't make sense. Anything that exists does so in contrast to not existing, so there has to be a state of affairs in which this nominal god does or did not exist. Light is only light insofar as it is not dark-- similarly, existence is only existence insofar as it is not nonexistence. If god always existed, that's the logical equivalent of never existing-- there would be no state of affairs in which he/she/it did not exist, so his/her/its existence would be axiomatic, and therefore insignificant.

Or something like that...


So anyway:

I think the first and most obvious possibility would be that this god came to be in the same way that we all have-- as the offspring of some other being(s). If there is some being that is so immensely powerful as to have created our universe, then we could easily be nothing more than a (from our limited viewpoint) deceptively complex ant farm. And actually, envisioning god as a child would go a long way toward explaining some of the otherwise inexplicably petulant and childish things with which he is credited-- the temptation of Eve, the flood, the tower of Babel, yanking Abraham's chain...

The second possibility that comes to mind is the "base energy" one that dusran explained so well, and to which I could add nothing of any note.

Here's one that ties in with the big bang theory-- suppose that that which we might call 'god' is the universe. As the universe expands and the stuff of which it's made becomes more tenuous, god would grow progressively weaker, and would even potentially "die." As the matter and energy of the universe contracts, "god" would begin to come back into being, and would again be "born" when the universe has drawn in tightly enough to provide sufficient energy to allow that birth. He would achieve full consciousness when the universe had contracted down to little more than a point, and the very act of his thought would create another big bang, starting the cycle all over.

Or maybe....

Nah. I can't think of any more right now.

bob... awesome analysis of the universe/god concept.

i have two thoughts to add that i was actually thinking about last week and told a friend at work..
first off on the concept of a god or god...a glimpse back in time would show that ancient aztecs used to build temples and cut the hearts out of people on top of them to appease the sun god. We currently call this practice murder. Next we have ancient egyptian pharoahs who would make peasants spend decades building elaborate tombs and pyramids for the time of their death. We currently call this practice slavery. Like everything i can possibly think of religions/peoples/ civilizations and beliefs have a life cycle, and these beliefs were ended when the people who invented them ended.
Years ago in one of the first copies of the book of mormon, it stated that a civilization of Quakers lived on the moon. Who would have thought that decades later we would disprove this lie. And accordingly the phrase was removed from the book. The same can be said about slavery. Thats the beauty of man made myths you can change them as the times change.
If i recall correctly it used to be universally known that the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, as times change people change and so do thier religions.

Also, almost every religion states that their church or religion is the true religion of the corresponding god, if this is the case there are going to be ALOT of dissapointed life-long warshippers who were praying in the wrong direction or to the wrong god entirely. .."What do you mean allah wasnt the right god!" -"I'm sorry sir the correct answer was budda, please exit to your left and take the elevater to hell."



[edit on 8-1-2006 by turbokid]

The initial attraction of religion, its basic reason for being, is that it answers, or obviates the existence of, unanswered questions. It either explains how it is that this or that "god" caused something to be or organized something, or it simply says "God did it" and closes the issue.

As more and more of the questions that people have traditionally had (what is the nature of the earth, where does rain come from, what's the deal with those lights in the sky) have been answered, the focus of religion has narrowed, but so long as there are still unanswered questions, the actions of some sort of "god" will be posited as one of the answers to those questions. Personally, I have no issue with that, and I don't really understand those who do. I don't see many of those answers as being terribly likely, but anything's possible, and I have no need to deny a possibility just because some of the people who have administered some of these religions have been power-drunk scumbags, which, I suspect, is at the heart of many people's caustic denial of religion.

The second reason for being for religion is to provide people with some manner of ethical system. I have even less of a problem with that, assuming that there's some legitimacy to the ethics so provided. Of course there will be many people who will fail to live up to those ethical systems, and many who will, for their own gain, warp and manipulate them, but again, I don't see that as a condemnation of religion, but simply of the base nature of all too many people. There are secular ethical systems, and there are mendacious people who warp them and there are diverted, distracted, dissipated people who fail to live up to them, so that problem isn't unique to religion.

But anyway-- the topic here is unanswered questions, and the unavoidable fact that crediting "god(s)" with responsibility for the answers simply moves the problem back one step. Okay-- let's assume that some sort of "god" did this or created that-- where did this "god" come from? How? When?

To me, no matter what answer one might assume, if you trace it back far enough you come to a point where you simply have to shrug your shoulders and say, "I don't know." There's just no viable explanation for the existence of the universe itself. It's entirely inexplicable. We can explain progressively more of its nature, but we still can't even approach an explanation for how it came to be here in the first place, or even what and where "here" is.

I choose to say "I don't know" at the point that I genuinely don't know, rather than to assume any answers. I've seen some compelling theories for the existence of the Earth, and for the existence of life on the Earth, but I don't even know (nor does anyone else) that they're any more legitimate than "God did it," so I just shrug and say, "I don't know" and get on with my life.

I don't particularly begrudge anybody their assumed answers-- if assuming an answer makes one's life easier, that's fine. I do wish though that people would stop fighting with each other over the presumed validity of their answers and contrasting invalidity of everybody else's. The fact is that nobody knows, and while it's certainly fine for people to, in the face of that ignorance, make a guess, and even to believe in that guess, it's ludicrous for them to attack other people simply because they made some other guess.

But of course, if other people make other guesses with no obvious ill effects, that tends to take some credibility away from one's own guess, which, I suspect, is the ultimate source of all of that antagonism that exists between different theisms, or between theism and atheism. It's hard to maintain one's certainty that one holds the only true belief when there are all these other beliefs floating around...


I've been trying to come up with a closed loop wherein god could create man, who in turn creates god, who in turn creates man.... I haven't figured out a way to make it work yet though.

Thanks for the response.

a miracle of life.

We are, or we were the result of natural evolution that has taken place over billions of years.
Now that our industrial revolution has caused us all to become partially synthetic, it is clear to me that we are nothing more than monkeys who have still not figured out a way to stop suffocating ourselves with our great 'inventions'.

Originally posted by blunderful
Has anyone in here have any idea about how God came into being..

Why do you suppose that god came into being?

" In the begining there was the word. The word was time. Time began and the word was begun "

and of course it is later said..that " In the beginning, there was the word. The word was with God, and the word was God. "

The word being communication. At all level, from the smallist of particle to entire galaxies and their attributes. It comes in all forms. God is the only one who can command it.

My arguement for God and the universe is this. Since there is infinite universe, there are infinite possibilities, both in a universe, and an innerverse.

Matter was. But the word of communication that all of the universe including God use to create it was a separate entity. It was the conscious.
The idea. The universe was composed of matter, and an awareness. A two part start.

The universe was composed of inanimate elements. You and I, are all composed of inanimate elements, yet we are animate. We are a negotiation with " words " to combine and become life. We, as animate beings, allow iron and lead and other elements to live. To feel and love. A mircacle.

As for the form of the word, it comes in different ways. Think of it like this..if you could talk FM, you could talk into your car radio.
If you could talk other frequencies, you could heat things like a microwave.
God has that word. The word of communication. That word is life. That words purpose was love. You cant love without life. And things dont work, at any level, atomic or otherwise, without communication.

And while that my seem obscure, I can assure you Im on the write path. The opening statement above..is my own. Welcome to the word.

As for the physics of the universe..and time and its size..it will never be known, at least by mankind. " IT IS " .much as God said, " I AM ". Infinity my friends is infinity. Man is here to define his purpose of love and not of science. Until he figures that out, he is lost. The pretense of man was love. The concept of the earth was for all men to reap in its bountys. NOt to have dominion over another man. And not to horde the worlds resources. They are for all men. Always were, and will be in the end.

Man has forgotten that in the name of one man over the other. Power, Money, Nationalism, and racism. Even religion.
Man is a hazard to the universe for now; Power and self assertion seem to be his meaning.

He needs to learn equality for all life. Love of all life.. And respect for all.

Until then, the earth will be his training ground.

Peace

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Originally posted by dbrandt
God has always been. God reveals Himself through His word, creation and those who believe in Him. The Bible talks about those who have eyes that won't see or ears that won't hear. You can refuse to believe in God and ignore Him. That doesn't make Him nonexistent.

Why can he "always be" but the universe cannot. I find it hypocritical that in one moment christians will say" well if not for god where did you/life/the universe come from" but then saying their god can just be.

Originally posted by blunderful
Has anyone in here have any idea about how God came into being..

God is the being. The all together, the universe, with us being pieces of this universe, pieces of God. All is found in ourselves, God is all knowing. You have been given God in your life, do with Him what you want.

Why being difficult in wanting to know that which he is, he is unjudgable, but always on your side, if you want Him to be in your life. Just accept Him as he is and the eternal life will be given thee. The afterlife now. Then death will make thou not fearing anymore. For death is what thou art. But thy art also giving life to a body.

good work

Originally posted by blunderful
Has anyone in here have any idea about how God came into being..

didnt you know that He's always been around?

He aint a created being.

He is the uncreated.




[edit on 10-3-2006 by mr conspiracy]

In reflecting back on this further there are things that seem inherently juxtaposed in terms of mankinds way of thinking..

First..that we are hurtling through space. To Hurl through infinitity makes distance and travel a non issue. Infiniity to infinity? Are we moving or is moving relative. Were really moving nowhere..so what does it matter. We have no control over it.

Second...All mankind wishes to live, yet has a fear of death. Hes never been there, yes hes afraid of it. Yet life, from nowhere creates in the end a path to death. God addresses that fundemental issue and says, there is life after death. That life has a purpose. Life to death to life. Like a seed.

Third..That there isnt a God.. That in infinity, through time and nowhere,
mankind, love and a harmonious world sprout up. How can there not be God? For all this to turn up in infinite space seems pretty far out to me. God makes sense.That love was the them, and that mankind got out of hand. He oppressed himself, enslaved himself, and even taxed himself. I dont think that was Gods original intent. And if not God..then no natures for sure.

So...who created God. In the beginning, there was the word. The word was time. Time Began, and the word was begun.

If we look at the bible, it says the the word was with God and the word was God. God is the universe. Always was..and always will be. The universe made man, Man is. Man has done everything possible to explain what he is. He is. Mankind needs to see that all man deserves the world that the Universe Created. That universe being God.

Peace

[edit on 15-3-2006 by HIFIGUY]

Oy Veh - "If we look to the Bible, if we look to the Bible" - for God's sake leave that thing out of the picture. Whenever an intelligent conversation emerges, the mention of the Bible destroys the conversation because there are not many thinking people who go around quoting the thing. I have a Bible and I read the Bible but the Bible is a story book - metaphorical and written in an historical/cultural/social context that is so alien to today's world that it is barely comprehendable to us in a meaningful way without studying it responsibly.
There are writings that speak of the origin of God - the 'mother' was Wisdom and there were other beings as well. I can't recall all of the story but I have heard mention that God was feeling alone and rebelled once God learned God wasn't alone. Eventually God reconciled and matured. Can't remember any more of this story but it comes from the Nag Hammadi finds.

Definition of Story:

1: a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale

At what point are all mens words considered " story book"?

Isnt that the nature of words? We are trying to tell a story. An account.

Bible a story book? Leave the Bible out of it?

Well now, it seems like society today has done a pretty good job of that now havent they.

Who created God?

Maybe if the world adopted the Almighty Gods wishes, he might make himself known.

And since we couldnt seem to get it done under Moses, and the world only partially accepts Christ, it appears we have a long way to go.

At what point or Juncture in mankind, will we finally understand that the only way to be good stewards of the earth, and to have the happiest outcome of Humanity for all men, is to adopt all Christs ways in totallity.

Who created God?

Well..when he was asked who he was....he said:

"I AM"

Peace



[edit on 24-12-2006 by HIFIGUY]

I hope my personal experience will be helpful.

11 years ago I was bedridden with an undiagnosed illness for almost a year. Suddenly, while I was in bed, a powerful force struck my brain. The supernatural force that struck me said, "This is God." I replied, "Who created you?" God said, "I AM." This Spiritual/Religious experience converted me from being an atheist into an incontrovertible believer in God. I have not been seriously ill for the last 11 years.

Pray for the bedridden, sick, ill, diseased, disabled, handicapped...

Remember that God loves and cares for all!!!

Im not even sure how to respond to that last post...

You said it right when you said...." a powerful force entered your brain ".

My question to you is this...you didnt actually hear it...

but was it more like...speaking aloud in your head, but acually not hearing the word? The words were there. Did you feel a tingling sensation in our body or any other feeling?

Im interested to hear your response..

Peace

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