12 Christians in Iran await verdicts after Easter Sunday Apostasy Trial

Originally posted by MichiganSwampBuck
From the article

"No verdict has yet been issued in the case . . .

'Their defense was that they were performing religious rituals that are protected by law,' DeMars said. . .

But converting, or more specifically, the act of turning from Islam, can be punishable by death. To leave the Islamic faith or to attempt to convert others away from the faith warrants capital punishment under Shariah Law."

There is still time for the Iranian people to show compassion to the world, however it doesn't look good for the accused. The Iranian's are a well educated people and their country is very modern. I hope they make a favorable ruling and show kindness and wisdom, but that seems like a long shot.

Historically in Islam, Sharia does not say an automatic capital punishment, there is first a time and a chance to convert back to Islam, because the act of converting is seen as an ignorance of Islam itself. Therefore there is time with Shiekhs to ask questions and gain a better understanding of the points you have questions on and feel doubt upon. If the person still wants to openly be and preach another religion, then they are tried (before the court). Punishments historically have been exile or death, depending upon the severity of the charge....

I know you all do not understand the meaning of 'severity of the charge', therefore allow me to explain the best way I can.

Iran is an Islamic republic, there is a parliament and a system of laws and voting on certain issues, along with a certain hierarchy involved, just as the United States is also a republic. The difference is the word Islamic, meaning, all the laws are based upon a religious principle, and the absolute heads of state, is called the walayah al faqih, meaning the guardianship of the jurist. It means we have religious scholars who determine if new laws introduced are in accordance with the laws in Islam or not etc.

Some things Iranian republic has determined is whether or not sex change operations would be legal in Islam, decisions concerning wars of self defense and what determines self defense, whether or not we can have wars of aggression (wars of aggression are against Islam by the way) whether or not nuclear power would be against Islam (this was determined it is allowed in Islam), whether or not nuclear weapons would be against Islamic law (which they are illegal in Islam)... all these things and more go before a panel of experts in religious jurisprudence.

This is an unusual idea for some of you, which I understand because you were not raised in this system of governance. But it does not mean the government is evil in anyway. It is patterned by some of the very same teachings that the UN used in their charter (in case you did not know this)

but when you have a religious precept for all laws the state governs itself by, and someone starts openly preaching to people that these laws are not Godly, and that people should turn away from the very laws the state governs itself by, then it is not simply someone changing their religion. Anyone is free in their heart to believe whatever they will, this is called free will that was given to all men by God.

But OPENLY inviting people to ignorance, openly telling people not to follow these laws and not to believe the scholars who determine these laws, becomes an act of sedition and an act of treason. It is more than simply believing in another faith, it is an open act of defiance against the state.

What does the United States feel about people who commit acts of treason against the state and how is that defined?

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Here we see treason defined as "adhering to their enemies"

Treason as defined by the United States is no different than apostasy as defined by Islam, because the punishment in Islam is based in open defiance and openly trying to pull people away from the laws and precepts of the state. NOT for simply believing in your heart another religion.

Also, in the United States treason has a maximum penalty of death although it can also be life imprisonment.And here Islam is no different, it is the maximum penalty that can be had, but other penalties can instead be imposed. The penalty is commiserate with the crime, death is not always the sentence.

reply to post by Jameela

Treason as defined by the United States is no different than apostasy as defined by Islam, because the punishment in Islam is based in open defiance and openly trying to pull people away from the laws and precepts of the state. NOT for simply believing in your heart another religion.

Not really. You are ignoring some crucial differences.

1. Advocating for any change by peaceful means is legal. This is the equivalent of apostasy.

2. Advocating for an overthrowing of a government by violent unlawful means is sedition, not treason, and usualy carries some punishment, but not life in prison or death. It is similar to a charge of inciting unlawful violence.

3. Actually damaging the government by some act, either aiding the enemy or attacking the government, is treason. Words or agitation does not count. This may in some countries carry a death sentence.

reply to post by Maslo


We are still looking at these people being tried for #2 on your list, and just because our punishments may be slightly more harsh than ones in the United States is neither here nor there. Countries have the right to determine laws by which they are governed by.

It is not up to the United States to decide for all peoples in all countries their laws. I made the attempt to explain why they are being tried for a crime. You have the choice to decide whether or not it is your right to force others to do exactly as you want them to.

But do not expect your views to be received well when you are trying to force the world to follow your laws. There is something called sovereignty.

The only thing that bothers me is that people seem to only dislike the word Islamic, rather than the laws themselves, if everything was called something different or by a different name you all would not mind at all, change the words Christians being tried for apostasy to 12 people being tried for sedition, and you have a different opinion of the circumstance. Please understand laws are laws and it matters not what name you call them. Any soveign nation is free to create laws based on the values of the nation and govern their people by them. It is precisely Islam that makes Iran a good country to her neighbors (not discussing Israel here) she has not invaded other countries or done harm to anyone who did no harm to her.

Any trash you can dig up against Iran I can dig up 100 times more and then some against the United States. And even then most of what you will say is based on propaganda against Iran, without any full knowledge of the truth.

So please, consider before you judge others.

I have said all I have to say on the topic, there is no point in arguing in circles, You all can have at it now.

That's actually a Christian strategy.

reply to post by RATSOYFY37

It sure didn't take long in this thread for the hate to show. An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind. Unfortunately, it is responses like these that contribute to the perpetration of hate in the world. Regardless of whether these 12 people are Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or atheists, they are HUMAN BEINGS, and the attitude that "it was done to my kind, so I support their torture and punishment" is why this world is in such a mess. We need people to say "Stop this insanity". Otherwise, things will continue to spiral downhill until the entire world is up in flames. Wake up and join the HUMAN RACE.

reply to post by Jameela

We are still looking at these people being tried for #2 on your list

I doubt it.

Were they advocating using violent means to overthrow the government of Iran or attack muslims? Then I can understand such behaviour being unlawful. But I dont think they were.


I think they simply converted to Christianity and refused to hide it. Or at most, they began preaching and converting others by peaceful means. Still #1 on my list, and perfectly legal.

But do not expect your views to be received well when you are trying to force the world to follow your laws. There is something called sovereignty.

Sovereignity does not mean you will get a free pass. With laws like this, better get used to being harshly criticised, hated and maybe under sanctions for breaching human rights or something.

And sovereignity has its boundaries. Some things should not be tolerated anywhere in the world (applies also to my own country if required). Now I dont think it would be justified to violate Iranians sovereignity, but lets just say that Iran is pushing it a little by this kind of BS.

reply to post by Jameela


YOU ARE NOT IRANIAN.

YOU ARE A MUSLIM WANNABE IRANIAN. This matter is about IRANIAN lives that are on the line. It has NOTHING to do with you.

Remember when you said I was the person who wanted to see my fellow Iranians suffer because I mentioned the wrongdoings of the theocracy, which to you was ammunition for "Westerners" because you consider yourself at war with the West?

Now here you are, defending the death sentencing of 12 IRANIANS.

You are an Arab, priding yourself in your murderous and oppressive heritage, giving your opinion on the death sentencing of 12 Iranians. Your opinion is WORTHLESS and only serves to show the world what a lying and twisting tongue you carry.

THEY are MY countrymen and nowhere does God give the right to Khamenei or his lackeys, or the government, to kill these 12. Or even sentence them to jail. For what? Their personal faith? Because they shared their experiences? So what? What else does freedom of religion mean?

Nowhere does God give you the right to speak in defense of the murderous regime, and nowhere in HELL would ANY Iranian like it if an Arab spoke in defense of Khomenei and the Islamic regime.

Usually I would encourage you to get lost because you are supporting the suffering of Iranians(I don't care which religion, something bigots like you cannot ever comprehend)...but now, I wish to ask you to spread your nonsense as much as you want - so that people can see it for what it is. A bunch of hateful nonsense towards people who wish to be free.

And in case you were lost:

Freedom of religion = Freedom of religion. There are no "if's, but's and maybe's". Either people are free to believe what they want and shout their belief from the mountaintops, or they are not free. There is no "freedom of religion but you can't speak about it, otherwise you die". That's bullcrap and frankly, offensive to any intellectual.

If you have any heart, answer me this:
IN ALL 4 BRANCHES OF ISLAM; what is the punishment for apostacy? Don't dance around it, there is no exilement as punishment, there is no jail sentence as punishment. WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT?

(to other people reading this: the punishment is death in all 4 branches - it is meant as a rethorical question for Jameela so that perhaps, if she is a woman in the first place, she may one day raise her children to be free of hate)


ANYONE who gave this person stars, I hope you get charged with apostacy. I hope you go through what these 12 go through. Then come back and give some stars to a bunch of Islamic hogwash that you can't even understand in the first place. But supporting a murderous regime is cool if that regime is against America, right? Bunch of wannabe revolutionaries...

reply to post by Jameela

Any trash you can dig up against Iran I can dig up 100 times more and then some against the United States. And even then most of what you will say is based on propaganda against Iran, without any full knowledge of the truth.

Pardon me? You are not IRANIAN. YOU DO NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IRAN.

AT MOST, you speak to and for puppets of the regime in Iran, seeing how you regard Khomenei highly ( which is a sign to EVERY Iranian out there that you are part of the Islamic regime ).

Did the Americans throw Occupy protesting students off rooftops? No. Has the Islamic regime done that within the last 10 years? Yes. Did the Americans shoot with sharp ammunition upon the Occupy protestors? No. Has Iran done that to people protesting voter corruption? Yes.

I can go on like this for days. Truth of the matter is, you're just indoctrinated. So please, bring in an example of how Americans did something 70 years ago. PLEASE. Let the world know how ignorant you are!

reply to post by Jameela


Yes, go dig up dirt on the U.S. if it makes you feel better. The truth of the matter is that here in the U.S. we do have freedom of religion and no one gets killed for converting to something else. I converted from agnosticism over a year ago, and you have people converting from something else everyday and no one seems to give a crap. Life doesn't stop when someone decides to jump off the ship they were previously on to catch a ride on a new one. I'd have to say in fact that secularism is going to prevail in this nation. There may come a day when there is no religion in the entire world. The world moves on.

Unfortunately, when you look at Islamic Law you also look at the religion. So you punish and murder in the name of God. This is truly BLASPHAMY.



• 1- Jihad defined as “to war against all non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
• 2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
• 3- The head of an Islamic State (Caliph) cannot be charged, let alone be punished for serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape (Hudood cases) - Codified Islamic Law Vol 3 # 914C of and page 188 of Hedaya the Hanafi manual.
• 4- A percentage of Zakat (alms) must go towards jihad.
• 5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
• 6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
• 7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph in one case, if he rejects Islam.
• 8- A Muslim who leaves Islam (apostate) must be killed immediately.
• 9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of : a) an apostasy b) an adulterer c) a highway robber. Making vigilante street justice and honor killing acceptable.
• 10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim.
• 11- Sharia never abolished slavery and sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave. Slavery still exists amongst Arab Muslims.
• 12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, for sins like killing, adultery, prostitutions; and other Quranic corporal punishments like: amputation of limbs (chopping hands and feet), floggings, beatings and other forms of cruel and unusual punishments even for the sins like: stealing, sexual promiscuity, robbery, burglary etc.
• 13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia (pay Zizzya: poll tax) if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their own religious scriptures, or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
• 14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. However, Muslims can curse, criticize or say anything derogatory they like to the religions of others.
• 15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
• 16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
• 17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or a bathhouse attendant. Women in such low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
• 18- A non-Muslim cannot rule even over a non-Muslims minority.
• 19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
• 20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls under Sharia. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and consummated at age 8 or 9.
• 21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
• 22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
• 23- There is no common property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
• 24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits. Sister gets half of what brother gets.
• 25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and wife has no right to divorce him even if he is polygamous.
• 26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.
• 27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and also with women captured in battle (concubines), and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
• 28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man; that is, two women equal to one man.
• 29- A woman looses custody if she remarries.
• 30- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
• 31- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Some schools of Sharia allow the face and some don’t.
• 32- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife caught in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women since he “could be married to the woman he was caught with.”
• 33-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory and is known as Taqiyya (Islamic Deception). That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam’s commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.
The above are clear-cut laws in Islam decided by great Imams after years of examination and interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Mohammed’s life.
• 34. The perpetrators of genocide, mass rape and plunder will not be punished if they repent - Codified Islamic Law Vol 1 # 13.
• 35. To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses. Women’s testimony is not accepted - Pakistan’s Hudood ordnance 7 of 1979 amended by 8B of 1980. Thousands of raped women and girls in many countries have been charged with Zena (physical relations outside marriage) and punished by Sharia courts for want of witnesses.
• 36. All modern music including sexually explicit music of any kind is strictly prohibited and punishable by Islamic Sharia code of justice. Only Islamic songs are allowed.
• The above are the most important parts of Islamic Sharia law which were devoutly practiced by the early Islamic rulers (Holy Prophet and his four rightly guided Caliphs) and also by the Caliphs of Ummyad and Abbasid Dynasties ruled from Baghdad (Today’s Iraq) and later by Ottoman Empire with very little variations

islammonitor.org...

The Iranian Stone Age: Stoning in Iran

www.dailymotion.com...

reply to post by redneck13

• 14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. However, Muslims can curse, criticize or say anything derogatory they like to the religions of others.

Hm...Hypocrisy in 30 different flavors. Yeah, it's some bad stuff and it's getting a foothold here in the U.S. and theres already been a number of honor killings perpetrated by muslim men here.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


The sad part is this stuff makes The Texas Chain Saw Massacre seem like Barney the dinosaur. The numbing of violence in the society is incredible. Ancient tribal law all held together by the ones that benefit the most, Those Holy Leaders that are indeed above the law as it is written. The equivalent in our western world would be that the inquisition continued in perpetual and the pope controlled the free world. Doesn’t sound so free.
On a lighter note. I find it engenius the way they are buried up to the waist. They can’t fall down or backwards. All they can do is wait for the relief pitcher’s next fastball down the alley. Looks like these fellows have this to a science. As our Muslim brother believe, its only women. Hold the leaders accountable to the same law and this ##it would end today.

reply to post by redneck13


If Obama has his way you won't be able to protest against Islam or say anything to combat their doctrine. That guy is a closet muslim. The sad thing is it's looking like he will get his second term and if you thought we're in bad shape now, wait to you see what he does in his second term when he has no fear of not getting re-elected.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I pray that doesn’t happen. The way he is going at it you would think he believes there won’t be a second term. I am trying to think about all the good he has done for the country………………hold on, I am still thinking………………
Anyway looks like Romney is the guy. I hope the Mormon thing doesn’t queer the deal. Romney spoke to the NRA today. Guess we don’t have to worry about the Shy town boy getting in there, I think he has been barred.
Since he doesn’t “cling to his guns and his religion”

reply to post by redneck13


Well currently, according to what CNN says (and you know how MSM is), Romney is behind by 40 points in the polls. Not that polls actually have any bearing on who gets elected. It was the african american community that voted him in last time, not because he was qualified but because he was half black and the closest thing they could get. We will see who they back this time after his "Yes we can" slogan turned into "no we can't" and turned out to be a total liar. The whole deal with the attack on Bin Laden's compound was to boost his next election popularity by taking out Osama Bin Laden and in reality, from the reports i hear Osama died 10 years ago, the man had some deadly health issues

Originally posted by Jameela
Any trash you can dig up against Iran I can dig up 100 times more and then some against the United States.

BIG DIFFERENCE IS .. the information we post about Iran and the evil things the Iranian government does to the Iranian people are TRUE. However, the propaganda that comes out of Iran against the USA is straight from that evil regime and can't be believed. WE have freedom of the press .. Iran does not. So good luck with your posting of anti-USA propaganda from the Iranian Government here at ATS. Don't be surprised when you are called out for being a stooge of the Iranian government for doing so.

Originally posted by Jameela
.... just because our punishments may be slightly more harsh than ones in the United States ..

Slightly? I think that's an understatement.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
ANYONE who gave this person stars, I hope you get charged with apostacy.

I looked at his/her profile. Jameela has already gotten three 'applauses'.
*Everyone duck while InfoKartels head explodes over that information. *

Originally posted by Jameela
But, even if you do not believe in any God, you have to admit the genius logic behind religion and religious laws.

Um .. no. There is no 'genius logic' behind Onanism. No 'genius logic' behind stoning rape victims and claiming they caused men to commit adultry. There is no 'genius logic' behind claiming black people are going to hell because they bear the 'mark of Cain' and so you should have nothing to do with them because they are damned.

I provided balance .... I took from Catholicism, Islam and some hard core Christian fundamentalists in Alabama to give as examples of some of the 'genius logic' behind religious laws.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
reply to post by Jameela

 

ANYONE who gave this person stars, I hope you get charged with apostacy. I hope you go through what these 12 go through. Then come back and give some stars to a bunch of Islamic hogwash that you can't even understand in the first place. But supporting a murderous regime is cool if that regime is against America, right? Bunch of wannabe revolutionaries...

edit on 13-4-2012 by InfoKartel because: (no reason given)

I give Jameela a few stars for making clear how this is perceived in Iran and possibly other theocracies. I won't be the one to shoot at the messenger. I have a better understanding now of how they think and to that I am thankful and will award a few stars. By the way, I, under no circumstances condone putting someone on trial for religious beliefs, even if I feel that those beliefs are evil in my opinion. People are entitled to their beliefs as long as they aren't violating any ones rights.

reply to post by mobiusmale
A subtle hint at an insult towards christianity.

S&F for providing this info.

*cheers*