Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

Ooof, that's complex.

How can men learn from you? How did you react? Why did you choose to pressure your wife?

I became pregnant to a fiancé who had hidden a history of mental illness from me.

When I announced my pregnancy, he slowly slipped into a schizophrenic episode and when I refused to abort, he tried to kill me.

The foetus gave up at six weeks - I am convinced it was the stress.

Sometimes situations are not right to bring a child into.

He must have had his reasons for acting the way he did, as must you have had.

I do not speak to my ex. But I have forgiven him.

You need to show yourself some love and forgive yourself.

...Wow. I'm sorry you had to go through all of that selfharmonise. Nothing bothers me more than men abusing women.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I understand your stance, but I still don't agree. I think we should help women that get pregnant throughout the pregnancy and at the end of it, If they chose to give it up. Let them give it up.

I am convinced that these abortion clinics are in on the population reduction agenda... Targeting minorities and the poor. And to me that's just not right... I see how you think it's right, but I still can't justify ending a life for greed and I don't think I'll ever be able to understand it...

Actually...I think you probably do understand it now. I'm POSITIVE that you DISAGREE with it...but I sorta think that I perhaps got you to see the other side of the equation in a little bit different light. You don't have to answer if you don't want to...but I really don't think you ever drew the correlation that unwanted kids experience a whole lot of the feelings that your wife does surrounding the issue.

But I'm a HUGE believer in Constitutional rights and I would never ask you to do something against your good conscience by legislative decree. The only thing I ask in return is that others also have the same freedom to do what THEY feel is right.

If you truly believe in god...it's ultimately his/hers place to judge the morality of such a thing anyways...right?

reply to post by milominderbinder


Thanks milo.

Ultimately though, I let myself be abused.

I could see it all happening but didn't know how to get out of it.

Got to be thankful for it happening though - it helped make me.

I eventually did make a decision to have an abortion - after a night of turmoil where I lay in bed and made myself and told myself to stay in bed.

I knew if I got out of bed I would attempt suicide.

I made an appointment with the abortion clinic the next day.

I had to fly from Spain to london solo a few weeks later.

I went to the clinic. Handed over my money and nearly walked out.

My question then was, could I just disappear and tell my ex that I was no longer pregnant and go home to my family and have the child. Bring him up fatherless.

Was that fair on the kid? I felt no. The father wanted me to have an abortion, but yet when I said he could walk away and never see us, he refused.

Also, schizophrenia has something like a 1 in 3 chance of being passed on. I wasn't sure. Could put anther human through that after seeing his father.

As I was going through this, I got called in by a doctor.

She scanned me.

I was told the foetus had effectively died and was non-viable. I had had this suspicion, because it had not felt right in the last month. The foetus had stopped at around 6 or 7 weeks.

The decision was made for me. The foetus had made the decision!

She said i would spontaneously abort, did I want to have a d+c as would likely need one anyway post miscarriage?

So, i went into the belly of the abortion machine.

This is my experience of it.

It was very busy but conversely very quiet.

Most women were completely alone. There was none of the usual chatter when you get women together...no one was proud, comfortable, or happy to be there. No one had made the decision to be there lightly.

There were women of all ages and all backgrounds.i spoke to a few. Some were already mothers with too many kids already. They just couldn't afford another.

Some were young girls who had simply been caught too young.

All of them were profoundly sad.

How did the abortion clinic make me feel?

Ultimately, it made me feel like a number. It is a little like a production line.

However - it does a necessary job. And I believe in their right to continue to operate.

Am I over it? You better believe it.

Do I regret it? I only regret getting pregnant in the first place. I was stupid.

Do I hate my ex? No, I am no innocent. I could have handled some things better and we' re all here to learn from each other.

The experience really helped me understand who I am.

I hated men for a while...but I got over that!

I can't hate anyone for having an abortion - its a horrible position to be in.

Where the system is lacking is in counselling support post abortion for men and women.

reply to post by milominderbinder


Doing what you feel is right, isn't always right though. That's the problem... IMO

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Thanks milo.

Ultimately though, I let myself be abused.

I could see it all happening but didn't know how to get out of it.

Got to be thankful for it happening though - it helped make me.

I eventually did make a decision to have an abortion - after a night of turmoil where I lay in bed and made myself and told myself to stay in bed.

I knew if I got out of bed I would attempt suicide.

I made an appointment with the abortion clinic the next day.

I had to fly from Spain to london solo a few weeks later.

I went to the clinic. Handed over my money and nearly walked out.

My question then was, could I just disappear and tell my ex that I was no longer pregnant and go home to my family and have the child. Bring him up fatherless.

Was that fair on the kid? I felt no. The father wanted me to have an abortion, but yet when I said he could walk away and never see us, he refused.

Also, schizophrenia has something like a 1 in 3 chance of being passed on. I wasn't sure. Could put anther human through that after seeing his father.

As I was going through this, I got called in by a doctor.

She scanned me.

I was told the foetus had effectively died and was non-viable. I had had this suspicion, because it had not felt right in the last month. The foetus had stopped at around 6 or 7 weeks.

The decision was made for me. The foetus had made the decision!

She said i would spontaneously abort, did I want to have a d+c as would likely need one anyway post miscarriage?

So, i went into the belly of the abortion machine.

This is my experience of it.

It was very busy but conversely very quiet.

Most women were completely alone. There was none of the usual chatter when you get women together...no one was proud, comfortable, or happy to be there. No one had made the decision to be there lightly.

There were women of all ages and all backgrounds.i spoke to a few. Some were already mothers with too many kids already. They just couldn't afford another.

Some were young girls who had simply been caught too young.

All of them were profoundly sad.

How did the abortion clinic make me feel?

Ultimately, it made me feel like a number. It is a little like a production line.

However - it does a necessary job. And I believe in their right to continue to operate.

Am I over it? You better believe it.

Do I regret it? I only regret getting pregnant in the first place. I was stupid.

Do I hate my ex? No, I am no innocent. I could have handled some things better and we' re all here to learn from each other.

The experience really helped me understand who I am.

I hated men for a while...but I got over that!

I can't hate anyone for having an abortion - its a horrible position to be in.

Where the system is lacking is in counselling support post abortion for men and women.

...that's sad. You are a very strong woman. I completely agree with the counseling aspect.

It always makes me sick when I hear how the vast majority of women go down to the clinic alone...but then again...I suppose there likely would not be a whole hell of a lot of abortions if "Daddy" was just a swell, attentive, nurturing, and gainfully employed fellow...would there?

That's another reason I CAN'T STAND a whole lot of the hard-core pro-life evangelizers. All of this focus on criticizing, shaming, coercing, and in general mentally/emotionally abusing the poor women. Meanwhile their jackass husbands and boyfriends are RARELY IF EVER subjected to the same.

You know...way to make a scared, lonely, depressed, probably impoverished, and very likely ABUSED girl feel like absolute s%^t...as if they haven't been through and gone through enough already for them to ACTUALLY make the decision to go into the clinic that day. We wouldn't want them to feel bad about making "the biggest mistake of their life", right? You know...it's all about making sure these women aren't depressed. That's why the pro-lifers scream "sl#t' and "wh&%e" at them as they go into clinic...many of them after being raped.

Just like Jesus would do, right? Which passage was that in the bible where Jesus belittled, insulted, embarrassed, and relentlessly tormented Mary Magdalene for her troubled past again?

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Doing what you feel is right, isn't always right though. That's the problem... IMO

But you can't make a decision for every other being in the universe based on your guilt.

reply to post by selfharmonise


That's obvious and it's also obvious until we change the laws surrounding abortion , Abortion will continue.

It will also be preached as a savior for women, and a "medical procedure" for women...

When in reality it's a life that can be saved if the women and the man wasn't so weak.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

 

That's obvious and it's also obvious until we change the laws surrounding abortion , Abortion will continue.

It will also be preached as a savior for women, and a "medical procedure" for women...

When in reality it's a life that can be saved if the women and the man wasn't so weak.

...and we have come full circle.

Just because that was the way it was for you, doesn't mean everybody will have the same circumstances. Yes...you convinced or coerced your wife into having three abortions and it has affected her deeply. DO THE EXACT SAME THING to a woman who DOESN'T want the child and coerce, legislate, or even outright FORCE a woman to have a child she doesn't want...AND YOU produce the same effect in BOTH Mother & Child.

Besides...maybe it's "God's Will" that those women feel compelled to have an abortion. If you believe in the bible, then you simply have to reconcile yourself to the fact that "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and it is beyond human comprehension. Likewise...this is the same god who tortured his own son to death, and routinely practiced genocide. The bible is pretty clear that God is not at ALL above exterminating his creations.

If you think that god guides your actions and life...how do you know the same is not true of the aborting women? Who are you to second-guess "god" on the subject of free-will and what the divine nature of his plan is?

Isn't that blasphemous?

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Doing what you feel is right, isn't always right though. That's the problem... IMO

Exactly!! Maybe God is FURIOUS with you right now for trying to interfere with his mysterious plan. Your religion DOES still state that God is responsible for bestowing free will upon humans...correct?

Tell you what...If I believed in God, I REALLY would shy away from trying to change peoples minds about ANYTHING given that Free Will is the metaphysical basis of the entire judeo-christian tradition. If you deny people free will...you also are inherently interfering with God's own judgement of one's life prior to being either admitted to "heaven" or sentenced to "hell" and thus are removing any basis for judging the righteousness of souls in the first place.

...that's pretty ballsy if you ask me.

reply to post by milominderbinder


I don't believe in religion. I believe in God.

Originally posted by milominderbinder
As a male I hear what your saying about not having a say...however compelling women to give birth against their will is pretty much the definition of slavery, isn't it?

Yes, since persons do not have the right to usurp anothers bodily resources against their will pregnant women shouldn't be held to another standard. Nobody has a legal obligation to render their bodily resources to make remedy for a past wrongdoing. The government should not have authority over a persons own bodily resources to mandate it be given to another.

Pro-lifers arguing that "the process has already begun once it is implanted in the uterine wall, thus she has no choice" has no bearing on the law since even persons born do not have such rights even if they will die without requiring someone elses bodily resources. Even if that other person is responsible for that requirement.

For example if one person was suffering from leukemia, and another person was the only available match in a given time and distance value who had suitably matching blood marrow for donating, the first person's "right to life" would not obligate the second person to provide her bone marrow without consent. Even if we bring responsibility into it and acknowledge fault, they might be thrown in jail or pay with their wallet, they don't "pay" for it by being forced to give up their organs or blood. A historical precedent that dates to 1900 in this country. Pregnant women shouldn't be held to a double standard.

Pro-lifers saying that the fetus is human and should be entitled to its own right of bodily integrity will not overcome this. Because no living, already born human being has the legal right to demand so much as a drop of blood from another human being. Secondly fertilization only benefited a zygote by bringing it into existence, and fertilization is neither illegal nor negligent, so no obligations of the actors can be derived from it (i.e. IVF clinics are under no obligation to store eggs indefinitely - even though some people claim they're "human beings", or at least pretend to).

reply to post by igor_ats


Ya your right Human Greed knows no bounds.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by igor_ats

 

Ya your right Human Greed knows no bounds.

Government forcing you to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is not "human greed" no matter how much you want to spin it to say otherwise.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I don't believe in religion. I believe in God.

Ummm... that's the same exact thing.

re·li·gion  [ri-lij-uhn]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

...or did you mean that you don't believe in organized religion?

Originally posted by igor_ats

Originally posted by milominderbinder
As a male I hear what your saying about not having a say...however compelling women to give birth against their will is pretty much the definition of slavery, isn't it?

Yes, since persons do not have the right to usurp anothers bodily resources against their will pregnant women shouldn't be held to another standard. Nobody has a legal obligation to render their bodily resources to make remedy for a past wrongdoing. The government should not have authority over a persons own bodily resources to mandate it be given to another.

Pro-lifers arguing that "the process has already begun once it is implanted in the uterine wall, thus she has no choice" has no bearing on the law since even persons born do not have such rights even if they will die without requiring someone elses bodily resources. Even if that other person is responsible for that requirement.

For example if one person was suffering from leukemia, and another person was the only available match in a given time and distance value who had suitably matching blood marrow for donating, the first person's "right to life" would not obligate the second person to provide her bone marrow without consent. Even if we bring responsibility into it and acknowledge fault, they might be thrown in jail or pay with their wallet, they don't "pay" for it by being forced to give up their organs or blood. A historical precedent that dates to 1900 in this country. Pregnant women shouldn't be held to a double standard.

Pro-lifers saying that the fetus is human and should be entitled to its own right of bodily integrity will not overcome this. Because no living, already born human being has the legal right to demand so much as a drop of blood from another human being. Secondly fertilization only benefited a zygote by bringing it into existence, and fertilization is neither illegal nor negligent, so no obligations of the actors can be derived from it (i.e. IVF clinics are under no obligation to store eggs indefinitely - even though some people claim they're "human beings", or at least pretend to).

You are correct, sir.

I watched this video earlier today. What a flood of emotions to deal with in 7:16 minutes. The mom's face speaks volumes of her joy and heartache. Warning what appears extremely grotesque will become beautiful in a few short minutes. Box of kleenex should be handy.

1,346,843 views in 2 months.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
I watched this video earlier today. What a flood of emotions to deal with in 7:16 minutes. The mom's face speaks volumes of her joy and heartache. Warning what appears extremely grotesque will become beautiful in a few short minutes. Box of kleenex should be handy.

1,346,843 views in 2 months.

I tell you what...if you're interested in understanding the other side of the debate and why there so many millions and millions of unwanted children who wish they would have been aborted read or listen to the audiobook version of the Kurt Cobain biography, "Heavier Than Heaven".

I'm not saying that you should change your beliefs or anything...but it's an excellent portrayal of the despair, loneliness, and isolation that being unwanted forces on a child. The book itself is only the story of a rock star...it's not partisan in any way and at no time even DISCUSSES abortion.

Rather, it's just the best example I have ever come across of really capturing and describing what it's like to be an unwanted GenX-or-later child and how it affects people into their young adulthood.

In fact, you are at all interested, let me know and I will msg you a link where you can download my own personal copy of the audiobook if you want and do so in a 100% legal manner.

So I've had some time to reflect on everything...

Recently I had a friend who's sister got pregnant, She made the right choice.

She gave the baby to a family that had the ability to take care of him/her... What a strong sign of character, courage and conviction.

I hope others will follow in the paths of not killing unborn children and rather choose the more rational path of adoption.

I hope for the best for everyone. Cheers.