Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

"I think you need to look at the quality of life that children will have before you decry this whole thing wrong."


Quality of life, How would you know if you were aborted. Don't even have a chance. At least give these unborn babies a chance, That's all I ask.

If I was a billionaire I'd fix this world real quick, At least I would try..

We need warriors here on earth for the unborn, and I feel I need to step up to the plate.

I have a voice, two hands, a brain, I will tell you how I feel as best I can.


And I appreciate everyone that's responded, Keeps me thinking.

Thank you.

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by windword

 

So being unconscious and unaware is now a parameter for deciding death for a life? So can we kill people in their sleep? How about mentally disabled? Severe learning difficulties?

What is the difference? And at what point in your opinion do you find the cut off point for babies then? When do they become conscious and aware?

Oh and what is "viable"? Viable for what?

edit on 8-4-2012 by mee30 because: (no reason given)

A fetus isn't a person yet. It has no self awareness or cognitive ability. It has been debated forever, when does consciousness arise? The Koran says the "Soul" enters the body after 120 days of gestation. The old testament doesn't count babies until they have survived a month after birth. Socrates says that boys and girls get souls at different times.

Plato records that Socrates and Glaucon taught that for the supposed
good of society, women over 40 years old who conceived children must abort the child before
birth or expose it to death after birth:

Hippocrates condoned abortion:

, Hippocrates advised a girl, believed to be in the sixth day of her pregnancy to abort the seed by leaping so that her heels touch her buttocks. He claimed that after her seventh leap, the seed fell down with a noise:

“It was in the following way that I came to see a six-day-old embryo. A kinswomen of mine owned a very
valuable danseuse, whom she employed as a prostitute. It was important that this girl should not become
pregnant and therefore lose her value. Now this girl had heard the sort of thing women say to each other
– that when a woman is going to conceive, the seed remains inside her and does not fall out. She digested
this information, and kept a watch. One day she noticed that the seed had not come out again. She told
her mistress and the story came to me. When I heard it, I told her to jump up and down, touching her
buttocks with her heels at each leap. After she had done this no more than seven times, there was a noise,
the seed fell out on the ground, and the girl looked at it in great surprise…It was round, and red, and
within the membrane could be seen thick white fibres, surrounded by a thick red serum; while on the
outer surface of the membrane were clots of blood.”

In the above, Hippocrates speaks approvingly of abortion, prostitution and his relative
using a girl as a prostitute to make money.
In his Aphorisms, Hippocrates also advised that abortion can be obtained by bloodletting:

internetbiblecollege.net...&%20Jewish%20attitudes%20to%20abortion.pdf

reply to post by LaborofLove


I'm sorry to hear about your story, it's very sad and unfortunate, however, would you rather be dead? Right hear and now, would you want to be dead?

I don't think you do, else you wouldn't be here...

You see I think your way of dealing with the messed up parts of life is to just advocate killing the children! When we should be thinking about how we can help our fellow human beings, how we can improve the lives of people that were in your situation! Not blame them and knock them off because it's easier!

Everyone that is conceived should have the right to life, I mean they don't even have any say in the matter! That is why I feel the need to do it for them! At least let them get to an age where they can make their own minds up! If their life is so bad then they can end it. But I don't see how someone can make those decisions for them! It's called murder.

I worked with people with learning difficulties some years ago. These people were in a bad way to be honest. But we tried our best to give them the quality of life they deserve. The home was classed as THEIR home! If a resident hit you or got angry at you, YOU were to leave. Because even though you do not know what you did that was wrong, you did do something. So just leave and let another take over. It was no big deal.

What do you think of mental illness? Do you think they should be killed?

I don't believe in man made religions...

All I'm saying is abortion is wrong, And I haven't heard one person be able to successfully change my thoughts.

And I know if it wasn't wrong I wouldn't feel this way. Using my instincts. Not always right, but I'm not always wrong.

reply to post by windword


So I ask you once again (because you still haven't told me)... When is a person, a person? What is a person anyway? I'm a human being...

There are also adult human beings that display the characteristics you're talking about, so should they be killed, if you know they become a burden or something?

I don't care about the debates that have happened throughout the ages or what some book or other says, I care about the debate we're having now!

Again, what is "viable"? And what are we human beings supposed to be viable for? Who decided?

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


I am happy. Happiness does not come from others, it comes from you. So it has had to be a decision from me to live past the situation. It is easy to embrace love once you recognise where it is. It wasn't with her.
I do believe that I have a purpose, and that the little bit of fluid that remained that kept me alive was by the Grace of God. I thank you for your prayers, but lets pray rather that people realise that life needs to be considered all the time and the negligence of the young needs to be what gets addressed. We really need to have the talk more openly with our kids. Why are we so scared to talk about condoms? Why do we not give it to our kids, we shirk our responsiblities as parents when we don't. Our girls and boys need to know which drawer in the kitchen the condoms are kept in. We go on and on about religion but behave irreligiously when we do not prevent teenage pregnancies.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by windword

 

Many people feel very strongly about the issue of abortion, and once they make up their minds they rarely change their opinion. If you are undecided and/or open-minded, check out this page and this site for more information about abortion, including images and a description of medical procedures.

Just try to keep an open mind not for my sake but for your children's sake and your children's children's sake.

Do you want your children having abortions? I know I don't. And if you don't have children think about your family.

Do you want your family members having abortions or would you rather them give up your relative to a family that want's a child.


In my mind this is greed at it's worst.

I am not, nor is my daughter or my nieces baby making machines.

There is nothing morally wrong with terminating an unwanted pregnancy. That is my right, my free will and a righteous thing to do, under many circumstances. Bring another unwanted child into the world, or forcing a mother to endure and unwanted pregnancy is a crime against humanity, in my opinion.

We have achieved the ability to override our biological fate. We treat all kinds of medical problems now days. The termination of a pregnancy is a medical advancement toward the safety and well being of women's health, both metal and physical.

reply to post by windword


There are two oaths - the really old version and the modern version - refering to the modern version; doctors TODAY take the oath declaring they will preserve life.

I don't believe anything in the koran, so that makes no difference in my life.

reply to post by LaborofLove


Your right happiness doesn't come from others. It does come from the inside. I have new respect for you being able to share your story. I see a lot of good in you I just don't understand why you could be pro-abortion when you said happiness comes from inside. Everyone deserves a chance, Unfortunately thats not how the world turns.


And I just want people to think twice. If not a 100 times before they do it. It's not the god damn movie theaters...

This is real Life and your considering ending a REAL LIFE. That's what people need to think about. In my mind.

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by windword

 

So I ask you once again (because you still haven't told me)... When is a person, a person? What is a person anyway? I'm a human being...

There are also adult human beings that display the characteristics you're talking about, so should they be killed, if you know they become a burden or something?

I don't care about the debates that have happened throughout the ages or what some book or other says, I care about the debate we're having now!

Again, what is "viable"? And what are we human beings supposed to be viable for? Who decided?

120 days, unless the health of the mother is at risk or the baby is in peril and would be born is horrific pain and would die a painful death after being born, or the fetus is already dead, then a late term abortion would be called for.

reply to post by LaborofLove


Now you are talking more on the right lines... Though when you say kids, how old are we talking? I think it all depends on the individual to be honest, but I think we should let our kids be kids before filling their heads with sex! lol

In the uk they are teaching sex to 4 year olds! What the hell is that about? There was a time when the mother or father would have "the talk", it was usually in the teenage years when they were getting curious and starting having flings... This worked well for a long long time.

I think people leave education up to the T.V. and the radio etc... I mean look at that song, "I kissed a girl and I liked it, hope my boyfriend don't mind it" This should not be played on the radio for small children to hear! It teaches promiscuity and cheating for one! Our environmental factors definitely have an impact on who we are. If the kids are going to be watching T.V hours on end in the day and listening to that on the radio, then is there any wonder they turn out the way they do?

"I am not, nor is my daughter or my nieces baby making machines.

There is nothing morally wrong with terminating an unwanted pregnancy. That is my right, my free will and a righteous thing to do, under many circumstances. Bring another unwanted child into the world, or forcing a mother to endure and unwanted pregnancy is a crime against humanity, in my opinion.

We have achieved the ability to override our biological fate. We treat all kinds of medical problems now days. The termination of a pregnancy is a medical advancement toward the safety and well being of women's health, both metal and physical. "

=====================

I guess your morals and my morals are totally different. Crime against humanity to let a child naturally be born. Your so far from the truth.

An achievement you say. This is why people should oppose womens rights. Because women have a choice, and they are making the wrong one when they kill a living baby inside of them.

WE NEED EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL INCLUDING OUR UNBORN BROTHERS AND SISTERS NOT JUST WOMEN!

Women are tricked into believing what you just said.

It does much more mental and physical harm to a women IMO by terminating there baby rather then them just having it.

Hey maybe not in the short term, But in the long term I can almost say it's 100%.

I do like this debate , we might be getting somewhere as a human race because of it.

Originally posted by LaborofLove
reply to post by windword

 

There are two oaths - the really old version and the modern version - refering to the modern version; doctors TODAY take the oath declaring they will preserve life.

I don't believe anything in the koran, so that makes no difference in my life.

I don't care if you follow the Koran, the Bible, the Urantia Book or "The Force!"

A widely used modern version of the traditional oath was penned in 1964 by Dr. Louis Lasagna, former Principal of the Sackler School of Graduate Biomedical Sciences and Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University:[8]

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, be respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

en.wikipedia.org...

" If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty."

reply to post by mee30


I went through what I went through and accepted it and moved on - in the 1980's I watched a movie called the Silent Scream and cried for days after... In the early '90s I cried for days watching the children in Romanian orphanages treated, well lets say... not treated, just utter neglect. I cannot say abortion must be banned throughout the world, because this is a fate worse than death!
This is what they end up like

reply to post by windword


I don't think its an abortion if the baby is dead, That's called still birth.


Why do you say 120 days? Why not conception? When the human body start's to form.

reply to post by LaborofLove


Dude seriously or they can end up curing cancer. Come on man, we know this world sucks. Why should we make it worst by killing those that aren't even born yet? Because they might end up like that. I can't believe you believe that.

I cry to, It's not unhealthy to cry. In fact sometimes it helps.

reply to post by windword


Obviously we aren't to humble when we have girls and women going for their 10th abortion...

A line needs to be drawn, IMO.


This is 2012 we shouldn't care about old medical practices or writings, We need to evolve into caring human beings.

reply to post by windword


Wow! So you would kill one of these? What is the difference between this and what is delivered at full term? Or how about a week or 2 later?

If a baby is risking the mothers life or if both lives are at risk you could carry the baby as long as is safe and then have a Cesarean, at least the baby would have a chance then! You can't kill a baby that is already dead, will include already dead babies? Strange...

But after your comment it is now clear where you're coming from! Religion! You do not have an argument! You are trying to defend what your book says!

Edit: Sorry the pic is of 18 weeks, but trust me, even 16 weeks looks no different... here...


You still will not answer what viable means, and you won't answer why you can not kill a newborn baby! You have not answered why you can not kill the mentally ill....

Come on, your book was wrong! Sorry....

Hi,

Thanks for the post, I can feel your passion and emotion.

I have to say, as a younger man i really didnt think about it at all. The way we are educated its as though they made it seem as if it was normal, not a big deal. Its like they try to brainwash the public into thinking this is a viable contraceptive. I am disgusted with myself that i did not question this more deeply.

Im glad as a teenager I was never put in the situation where my girlfriend was pregnant and had to make a decision such as this one because i fear we would of made the wrong decision.

Now, i am totally against abortion unless the birth will be a direct threat to the woman's life. Even if a woman is raped and a child is conceived, this has no meaning on that childs life. All he deserves now is his mothers care and love.

I am Pro-Life


Cheers~

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo


I guess your morals and my morals are totally different. Crime against humanity to let a child naturally be born. Your so far from the truth.

You don't own the truth.

An achievement you say. This is why people should oppose womens rights. Because women have a choice, and they are making the wrong one when they kill a living baby inside of them.

WE NEED EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL INCLUDING OUR UNBORN BROTHERS AND SISTERS NOT JUST WOMEN!

So you want to place human rights for the unborn above those that are living. breathing and walking around!?! SO you're advocating sexual slavery of women to be baby makes, victims of biology! Slippery slope my friend!

Women are tricked into believing what you just said.

Bull! Women were tricked into subservience, forced into back allies for abortions, and many died. Is that what you want for your granddaughters?

It does much more mental and physical harm to a women IMO by terminating there baby rather then them just having it.

Hey maybe not in the short term, But in the long term I can almost say it's 100%.

Your opinion. Having an abortion was one of the most unselfish and best things I ever did, for myself and my family. I have never felt mental distress or harm for having done so.

I do like this debate , we might be getting somewhere as a human race because of it.

edit on 8-4-2012 by yoyoyoyo because: (no reason given)

Don't flatter yourself. Nothing is going to change because of your little thread.