Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

reply to post by begeegrace


What a great first post.

I got lost thinking how logical, reasonable--and compassionate your post was, and had to start over again.


I do disagree with this one part
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Without the intense bonding and nurturing, the devotion of one or more caregivers, that person will be dysfunctional, even feral or psychopathic. Therefore to propose that the fetus at 6 or 8 weeks is a miniature human is untrue
___

That's an if-then proposition that falls a little short.

I think the unspoken argument is, that the fetus ~at any stage~ holds the promise of life.
That's the driving force behind pro-life. You can put aside the graphic pictures and
arguments about stages of development, contraception, and the rest.

The real idea is that once sperm collides with egg, there is a chance for someone (baby) to have
a "life experience" and it's being stolen away from them. That's the way I see the pro-life stance
when I try to cut thru the BS.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I can't make an argument in my own mind for one side or the other.
I can make great arguments for either...

But anyway great comprehensive first post, and welcome!

Originally posted by Bone75

Abortion restrictions you say? Are you aware that over 90% of abortions are committed out of convenience rather than necessity or rape. It doesn't take a "religious nutter" to recognize that this is wrong.

The little skank that's in search of the world's biggest penis should be the face of abortion, not the unfortunate soul that was raped by her uncle.

No, I have no #ing clue what the numbers look like, please enlighten me further.

My question is who are you to dictate to others what is or isn't the right decision for them? You may be opposed to abortion, but that doesn't give you the right to deny that choice to others based on your moral or religious beliefs.

If you don't want your girlfriend or wife to get pregnant, then YOU should that the extra precaution of using protection or abstaining altogether. You make it seem like all women are sex crazed sluts fantasizing about your dick. Trust me, we're not.

Originally posted by paleorchid13reproductive choices, and that a microscopic cell does not take precedence.

I'm sure someone is bound to say " well a woman chose to get pregnant etc..". THat argument is null and void , Birth control sometimes FAILS , condoms break and sh*t happens. So I don't even want to hear any of that nonsense.

None of us are saying that all mothers choose to get pregnant. What these women are choosing to do is have sex, which is how babies are made whether you realize that or not When a woman (or a man) chooses to have sex using a contraceptive, in most cases there is a 1% chance that the contraceptive will fail in "preventing a pregnancy".

So keep trying to justify it to yourselves all you like. The fact remains... if your pregnant, then there's a BABY growing inside of you.

Yo-

I think that there might be some confusion going on here, as far as your understanding of the word "viable"

Early on in a pregnancy, the embryo is certainly not viable, it cannot survive outside of it's host. In these cases, abortion is sometimes a solution to remove the parasite from the host.

But, no matter what happens, there is a set time limit on when a woman can have an abortion. After a while, the fetus does become viable, and then, abortions aren't usually allowed and in most cases are illegal unless its an extreme circumstance.

No matter what, abortion is a difficult subject, it's not something chosen easily by any woman. I am pro choice myself. But, when I found that my (now ex) wife was pregnant, we talked about it. We are both pro choice, and we chose to have the child, and it was the best decision we made. I have a 9 year old boy whom I love very much and I am glad we made the choice to have him. I couldn't imagine a world without him now.

But it was a choice that we made together, we discussed it, and that was the choice we made. See, people who are pro choice aren't always going to abort a child, it's called pro choice for a reason. It was our decision to make, and it shouldn't be left up to the government to make that choice for us.

This is where Paul's campaign of personal liberty fails. It's not personal liberty if by virtue of being born a woman, you loose the personal liberty to have control over your own body.

Originally posted by HauntWok
Yo-


Early on in a pregnancy, the embryo is certainly not viable, it cannot survive outside of it's host. In these cases, abortion is sometimes a solution to remove the parasite from the host.

I was wondering when you "parasite" folks were gonna show up.

Please do keep contributing to this thread so that maybe a few minds can be changed. I'm extending your rope right here and now.

reply to post by Bone75


It's the simple truth, a baby isn't a baby till it's outside the womb, breathing on it's own.

At first it's a collection of cells, kinda like the collection of cells that inhabit your skin. You wash many many of these away with zero guilt everyday.

I'm not saying ANY abortion is or should be an easy decision. It takes thought.

At first conception, you are talking about one cell, one cell is not a human. (we are multicellular organisms)

From what I have gathered, pro life people seem to think that embryos in the womb are fully functioning humans from conception. It just doesn't work that way. The vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester. Anything after that is either illegal already, or the woman's life is in serious danger.

But hey, if your pro life, good for you, be pro life, just don't force your beliefs on others. There are nearly 7 billion humans on this planet, we aren't an endangered species. Like I said before, I am glad to have my son, best thing I ever did with my life. But I am not going to force MY choice upon anyone else.

Originally posted by Bone75

None of us are saying that all mothers choose to get pregnant. What these women are choosing to do is have sex, which is how babies are made whether you realize that or not

When a woman (or a man) chooses to have sex using a contraceptive, in most cases there is a 1% chance that the contraceptive will fail in "preventing a pregnancy".

So keep trying to justify it to yourselves all you like. The fact remains... if your pregnant, then there's a BABY growing inside of you.

Growing inside of HER, not you. It's not your place to dictate her choices to her regardless of what moral high ground you may claim. You make it sound like pregnancy is all her fault, yet you're the one who dictates how she should deal with the issue. Take some responsibility for your own actions and you largely avoid unwanted pregnancy from happening,

There is the chance that contraceptives will fail, but doing nothing has a MUCH higher failure rate. You can choose to do something or you can choose to do nothing, which do you think will be more effective?

reply to post by yoyoyoyo

There was very little about Ron Paul in your opening post ...
The title led me to believe this was something else ...

Originally posted by AaronWilson
Male masturbation then should be illegal. Every drop of semen is a potentially wasted life.

The difference is that it is NOT life whereas a preborn child IS life.
Although the bible would agree with you and not me. Google ONANISM.

Why not say the pill birthcontrol is murder?

The pill is an abortificant. Sometimes it stops conception, and other times it causes abortion which
the woman doesn't even know about and thinks it's just menstration. It kills.


In the end it doesn't really matter what a POTUS thinks about abortion. If he or she is prolife or proabortion, they won't be able to change the laws either way. Trying to overturn Roe v Wade would be like trying to catch smoke. You just can't do it. So in the end, the POTUS is allowed to have his or her own viewpoint like the rest of us .. but it shouldn't be a campaign issue one way or the other. IMHO

That was the first time I did not agree with Ron Paul. But what did I expect. He is a politician.

I say that a baby is a bigger gift than anything else you can ever get. And babies should only be allowed to the people that are truly ready for the responsability. I tell the prollifers this: Fix a good social system where people can support their kids without working insane long hours so they can be with their kids instead of being judgemental against people who are not ready. Some lifes are better not lived and poor souls who have to live them because of your ideas of what is right. Death is mearly a transition to the next level if you evolve your soul. I do not worry about aborted kids soul. God will take care of them and put them where they are supposed to be if he even sent a soul at all. God do not make misstakes so do not be so sure that the baby had gotten it soul yeet. God might have known from the start that the baby was gonna be aborted. I am more worried about the living that are in pain, than the dead.

Please stop concentrating on less important issues and evolve/wake up. This problem is mearly a smokescreen to make us occupied from what is important.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


I have yo yo'ed yes then no on this issue several times.

On one hand I have no right to tell another woman what to do with her body.

Rape, I was raped once and missed my very normal every 21 day period..............I was two days late so I had 48 agonizing hours to contemplate this issue very deeply.

My own conclusion was if someone, anyone has 50% of my blood, my DNA running through their veins, the rest of you can abort your flesh and blood babies all you want, I will fight to the death to keep, love and cherish mine.

Someone is a part of me, they live.

I am the product of a love affair.

Not proud of this fact, wish to God, I was like everyone else and had a mother that had the common sense to marry a man in a church wedding THEN have me.

But, it didn't work out that way.

Now, I knew my father, he came over every Saturday evening and they would sit in two easy chairs and watch Perry Como holding hands and each had one can of beer.

My father was always nicely dressed, not a fancy suit but a nice grey Sears suit and tie with a white or blue shirt. He smelled like Old Spice and was a very quiet, gentle, kind man. He was soft spoken and my older sister says he treated her better than her own father who ran off to marry a millionaire years back.

Personally, I really believe abortion is wrong. It's murder, pure and simple.

We have had Hitler, Tibet, Danfur, all kinds of human genocide thoughout the ages time after time after time after time and we all seem to justify what we want to do by giving it fancy names and trying to make it sound "okay", to ease our conscience, to allow us to not take responsibility for our careless actions, or pay the consequences for our mistakes.

Again, everyone can do what they want as long as they do not harm a innocent animal, child, or person weaker / dumber than them self. There I draw my line.

No, I'm not going to violently protest abortion.

But personally, in my own opinion, none of you absolutely know when that soul enters into the body. And yes, it could be at the big bang...........when the sperm has burrowed into the egg and they have their union.

None of you can absolutely say with 100% accuracy, when the soul enters the body.

Again, I don't know vote wise.

I may not even vote because I think it's all a sham anyway.

TPTB will lie, cheat and steal...............I suspect, they (whoever they are) give us the illusion of choice and the power of "the vote" but in the end they place their puppet in the oval office.

Anyway, I no longer have to worry about getting pregnant.

But, I chose my avatar to represent and remind myself to always try to remain humble, that the older I get the less I realize I know and that I will always defend the weak, the underdog, anyone or anything that is weaker than myself.

"With power comes responsibility" - John Kennedy Jr. said his mother Jacqueline Kennedy told him that.

I listened to a interview yesterday from a man that is the spokes person for Anton LaVey's Church of Satan and he said, it's a dog eat dog world, the strong owe it to the weak to eliminate the weak, animals do it and we are nothing more than animals.

The above was his wording not mine.

I believe the opposite and oppose this philosophy. If someone is down, I believe in helping them up. If someone is weaker (and even though I am 59 and a little over 5', I'm a strong, smart woman), I will always defend the weak and helpless.

In my youth I worked on a farm and could rival almost any man in strength (Scotch, Irish, Welsh, English peasant stock / short and strong, with big muscles).

After watching Madonna's half time ritual (yes I'm still on that rant) something is coming, something big and something really evil and dark. Something so ominous it's going to make the last episode of Harry Potter look like a Sunday Church Picnic in comparison.

Many people self talked them self into pretty much doing whatever they want and justifying it so they can do what they want without taking responsibility for their actions, even if it means hurting someone else.

If you have sex, use birth control, use not only a rubber but spermicide, even if the girl says she is on the pill or has had a shot.

Nobody has any honor anymore.........people say marriage vows but they are just words, they do not carry through with their commitments, their vows.

A honorable person that makes a promise, a vow, honors that vow - to do otherwise makes you (in my book) dishonorable, a liar, a cheat.

In my own opinion, abortion is murder.

It's evil and wrong.

You play, you better be prepared to pay.

People now have sex very causally. They treat it like having a fine wine, a ski trip or some other fun past time.

I've been pregnant and had three children.

The wonder of sharing your body, and a man will never understand, neither will any woman until they have gone through it, the wonder of sharing your body with another little mini me for nine months (ten and a half for my second, they had to go in and get him, he didn't want to come out ) is nothing short of miraculous.

I love my husband, but my children - I cannot begin to describe the type of love I have for them, we have no English word to describe the depth of love one has for their baby.

All my three "babies" are now big strong men - I'm the shortest in our family (except for our two dogs).

Just because Ron Paul is against abortion, I am not going to vote for him - I may not even vote, again I suspect it's all a sham, a game, a illusion of choice.

That's my own opinion for now.

One must constantly remain open minded and humble of heart in order to continue to grow and learn.

Once you close off your mind and heart by believing you know it all and have all the answers, you cease to grow.

Safe journey to us all..............I believe the next decade is going to be very interesting.

reply to post by windword

It is not my place to pass judgement on what other societies deem appropriate. I am not a missionary. I am NOT out to save the world. I only am concerned about what effects me and my family.

No, really? You are simply divorced from the rest of humanity.

What you are advocating is forcing women, young or old, to carry and give birth to children that are unwanted for whatever reason. They don't need your input or approval.

Not true - read my posts before you jump to conclusions -

I am trying to make people aware that maybe abortion is kinder sometimes, because there are so many children eaten by rats, suffering burns on the top of rubbish dumps, and rocking themselves into a stupor in some of the worst orphanages in the world. Life isn't as simple or as idealistic as we would want it to be. Life is about choice, but we don't educate our children enough to make the right and well informed choices, we leave them with their boyfriends, knowing that they could well be having unprotected sex and then we cry with fists pounding the air that every child has a right to live. I say that no child has a right to live without dignity.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
Please women and men tell me how you feel, Tell me where I'm wrong.

Why do you single out Ron Paul? He says he would leave individual states to make the decision to allow abortion or not which to me is a recipe for disaster whatever your thoughts are on the issue. RP seems to do this a lot in that he doesn't actually come down one way or another on an issue, Regardless of what you think of the other Republican candidates and Obama, they appear to have the courage in their convictions to make a stand based on their feelings, doesn't matter if you agree with them or not.

Im on the fence about abortion, one thing people seem to not think about is that when you prohibit something people do it anyways like drugs or alcohol back in the pohibition days(people even started drinking wood alcohol which is toxic). Meaning wether its right or wrong people are going to have them done and when its illegal people are going to have it done by people who think they know what they are doing......

I'm a little late to the party, and will start out by saying that I am not really pro-life or pro-choice, but have a rather unique view on the right to abortion, which I'll not go into details on.

The post caught my attention though and I read it with intrigue, right up until the statement saying that "For the record, I had an abortion. Worst mistake of my life", which is wherre I stopped reading and moved on to start reading the replies.

I wonder if the OP would still hold their opinion if Roe Vs Wade were not only struck down and the right to abort became illegal, but also criminalized RETROACTIVELY and they faced a prison sentence.

I think when you and St. Ron Paul are willing to foot the bills for the collection of cells you can have an opinion on what I choose to do or not do with them. You don't have to deal with the burden so you get off on telling others they must. So please shut up and go back under your rock until Mr. Paul crawls out from under it again in four years. Especially since you by your own definition are a murderer and deserve to be on death row for it.

The issue here is not about abortion and who can and can't do it, and why, in fact they have that right. When we as society give the instruments to others to commit the murders of our future generations, then we are all responsible for the lack of progress we make as humanity, and not as a nation. We will sit in World Councils, deciding who to have sanctions against and who to play nicely with. We will allow politicians to decide the fate of our children. Democracy doesn't work, it's fickle, one year a certain flavour is more vogue than the next year. We need a world council to determine the lowest education level, the standard of living every child should recieve. We need a council to tell us how to raise our children, because we are failing them dismally!
In the UK a 15 year old pregnant teenager is helped in every way possible, she is given freehousing, education and medical, and what that does to her is makes her fat and lazy. The educated in mainstream UK society are deemed snobs, whereas in other countries it is a given that you are to be educated. So the UK fails it's children. South Africa; in 2010, 229 000 households were headed by children between the ages of 10 and 19. In China up to a million orphans are abandoned each year, the majority being healthy girls. In 2007, there were at least 17 million children aged 0-17 that were orphans, Chinese girls are twice as likely to die in their first year of life as boys.[Read more: www.allgirlsallowed.org...
In the US, it's entertainment to watch a 15 year old struggle with an unplanned pregancy!!! In India Sex selective abortions after antenatal sex determination, are conducted, males are preferred.
All over the world the wrong things are been done to alleviate this problem, our children are just statistics. Prevention is better than cure!

I participated on a thread a few days ago about gay marriage, and there again, people spoke about the "natural" family unit and spoke against gays adopting. Everyone who is able to, should adopt. Every family should take a stranger in and make it one of their own. We all have a right to life, but we should not be allowed to live in such degrading circumstances. We have no idea what to do with ourselves on a good day, how are we expected to decide that it is the right of one individual to make a determination of whether a child is aborted, disposed of or given up for adoption. We have truly come undone. Every society in the past, who decided it was their right to play God, was exstinguished without recourse... we are heading that way.

PRO-CHOISE.
It is only up to the woman who is pregnant,and maybe sometimes the father.
A question to all the pro lifers,what happens if your daughter gets pregnant and for various reasons decides to get an abortion,what will you do?Disown her?
P.S Get of your high moral horse.Sincerely,the rest of humanity who mind their own business.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


oh please slight over reaction... imo nothing wrong with it, infact my past relationships had 2 with me... saved me a few quid on child support i tell you that!!

Originally posted by AaronWilson
Male masturbation then should be illegal. Every drop of semen is a potentially wasted life. Why not say the pill birthcontrol is murder? Its technically the same thing being an abortiocide and all.

Sperm die everyday, whether you masturbate or not.
But you don't procreate everyday.

many different types of people out there, and you seem to present your opinions as fact and portraying others on the opposing side as monsters who are evil is ad hominem, therefore your entire argument is invalid and based solely on pathos rather than ethos. I'm of the opinion that children are the single WORST thing that could happen to any of us, how does that sit with you?