Shroud of Turin is Probably Real

www.livescience.com...

According to Thomas de Wesselow, formerly of Cambridge University, the controversial shroud is no medieval forgery, as a 1989 attempt at radiocarbon dating suggests. Nor is the strange outline of the body on the fabric a miracle, de Wesselow writes in his new book, "The Sign: The Shroud of Turin and the Secret of the Resurrection" (Dutton Adult, 2012). Instead, de Wesselow suggests, the shroud was created by natural chemical processes — and then interpreted by Jesus' followers as a sign of his resurrection.

Critics have charged that the researchers who dated the shroud accidentally chose a sample of fabric added to the shroud during repairs in the medieval era, skewing the results. That controversy still rages, but de Wesselow is convinced of the shroud's authenticity from an art history approach. "It's nothing like any other medieval work of art," de Wesselow said. "There's just nothing like it."

That's were I have to agree the artwork on the shroud looks nothing like the medieval art of the time period they're saying it was made in. And if repairs were made they easily could have taken a piece of the newer cloth. I'm not that religious, so I'm not pushing whether either or is right, I just have to agree with this article it may be from the time of jesus and be the actual shroud.

I was doubtful about this artifact at first, but when I learned that the basic carbon dating techniques dating the Shroud to the Middle Ages had been refuted because of relatively recent repairs it changed my mind.

If it does indeed date back to Biblical times then the implications of producing a negative image from radiation would be incredible, when such techniques could not be reproduced by alchemists of the Middle Ages.

reply to post by Brandon88


I am pretty dang sure that it is real.

Probably caused by spiritual energy flowing through it in a burst of light...

When Jesus came to me in a dream I was surprised about the way he looked.

The shroud is how he looks. He looks like a wise old man. I'm confused about all these pictures of Jesus where he's all young with a smaller beard, and an incorrect mustache.

It scares me to look at it. Jesus is so intense if you ever see him. Those eyes...

i saw a recent history show that tried to replicate the shroud of turin. they succeeded in producing something with the same properties, but it took a laser printer to accomplish it.

the problem for skeptics and debunkers is that laser printers didn't exist when they say it was made, or at Jesus' resurrection.

reply to post by Dustytoad


I am pretty sure Jesus was crucified at the age of 33.

reply to post by randomtangentsrme


Yes that is probably true...

If you see him though. He doesn't look like hes 33.

Don't you find that number to be suspect... He may as well have been 13 while we're at it. 1333 do you get me?

Maybe he didn't age well??

He looked about 50 to me...

Seriously though. this shroud is Jesus. I never knew about the shroud(I'm not religious) until maybe 2007. I saw Jesus before that in late 2005.. you should have seen my face when I saw the shroud... What THE...

Originally posted by Dustytoad
reply to post by randomtangentsrme

 

Yes that is probably true...

If you see him though. He doesn't look like hes 33.

Don't you find that number to be suspect... He may as well have been 13 while we're at it. 1333 do you get me?

Maybe he didn't age well??

He looked about 50 to me...

Seriously though. this shroud is Jesus. I never knew about the shroud(I'm not religious) until maybe 2007. I saw Jesus before that in late 2005.. you should have seen my face when I saw the shroud... What THE...

edit on 4/6/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/6/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/6/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/6/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)

In the bible I don't believe they record Jesus' life from about 13 to 30. I find the number as suspect as 40 days and 40 nights, and 6 + 1 days to create the world. Regardless, I believe you believe you saw Jesus looking about age 50.

If the shroud is Jesus that would be awesome. It could also be any contemporary of his from the same time.
As I understand it, the imprint on the shroud is due to body fluids leaking out over time and staining it. Which kind of goes against the whole resurrection theory.
I think it would be quite interesting if they could pull DNA off of it and compare it to modern DNA to see if a family line is still present.

reply to post by randomtangentsrme


You believe that I believe haha. Ok. I don't have to believe things I know.

I don't think his contemporaries are that powerful. But I can understand you not believing me.

the 13 and 33 were a reference to the Masons so you know... It's why I find the numbers a little too perfect to be true.

This is a movie called Fabric of Time...it's long but each section is only 10 minutes.
It convinced me, positively, about the Shroud's authenticity and it explained a lot more, too.

Google Video Link

Google Video Link

Here are parts 3-6:

Google Video Link

Google Video Link

Google Video Link

Google Video Link

Originally posted by Dustytoad
reply to post by randomtangentsrme

 

You believe that I believe haha. Ok. I don't have to believe things I know.

I don't think his contemporaries are that powerful. But I can understand you not believing me.

the 13 and 33 were a reference to the Masons so you know... It's why I find the numbers a little too perfect to be true.

By no means am I trying to discount your personal experience. Not being you, I cannot have a say one way or another about the beliefs you hold to be true.
I do not understand what is powerful about the natural decomposition of a dead body. We are all born with the ability to decompose.

I have not gotten around to researching masonic conspiracies. The few masons I know are good, honest hardworking individuals so I've never given much thought to it. Sorry I missed the reference.

Also, a study of the pollen, etc., on the shroud revealed only plants that would have grown in and very near around Jerusalem. Here is a page I did on my website giving all the details. I'd cut and paste it but there are too many links to do that.

I found a lot more when I was doing that page, after seeing that movie...since I was so totally convicted and amazed, too, that it was actually that our science is BARELY catching up to divine technology as far as being able to detect, measure, or otherwise quantify things as of yet beyond our understanding...the Knights Templar might very well have been protecting the shroud back in their day...the reason for the existence was perhaps the shroud and it's preservation.

----------

If a person puts their trust in science...OR if they put their trust in Spirit...either way, the physics of this piece of cloth make it undeniable that it was NOT created by human efforts.

What the movie says, among other things but one of the most significant details to emerge is that they are able to extract 3-D information from a 2-dimensional image (a standard photograph) of the shroud!

Someone says it is like making a sculpture out of a painting...something like that. It's been a while since I watched the movie all the way through so my paraphrasing is probably quite liberal.

Originally posted by randomtangentsrme

As I understand it, the imprint on the shroud is due to body fluids leaking out over time and staining it. Which kind of goes against the whole resurrection theory.
I think it would be quite interesting if they could pull DNA off of it and compare it to modern DNA to see if a family line is still present.

Well, no, it doesn't...it's okay that he died and lost all his blood, I would think, since that's the point of resurrection in the first place. One must be all the way dead to truly be resurrected.
I think they tried to get dna but I'm not sure...if they did, it wasn't fruitful, I don't think.

The image, though, is actually caused by the very top only of the woven fiber being blackened but not burnt in that it would crumble away where it is black...and it is only the very topmost aspect of the cloth.

I got this from:Times of London

Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican
April 6, 2009
Richard Owen in Rome

Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said Sunday in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic's missing years.

The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.

The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.

Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century.

Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.

However her study of the trial of the Knights Templar had brought to light a document in which Arnaut Sabbatier, a young Frenchman who entered the order in 1287, testified that as part of his initiation he was taken to "a secret place to which only the brothers of the Temple had access."

There he was shown "a long linen cloth on which was impressed the figure of a man" and instructed to venerate the image by kissing its feet three times.

Dr Frale said that among other alleged offences such as sodomy, the Knights Templar had been accused of worshipping idols, in particular a "bearded figure". In reality however the object they had secretly venerated was the Shroud.

They had rescued it to ensure that it did not fall into the hands of heretical groups such as the Cathars, who claimed that Christ did not have a true human body, only the appearance of a man, and could therefore not have died on the Cross and been resurrected. She said her discovery vindicated a theory first put forward by the British historian Ian Wilson in 1978.

The Knights Templar were founded at the time of the First Crusade in the eleventh century to protect Christians making the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Order was endorsed by the Pope, but when Acre fell in 1291 and the Crusaders lost their hold on the Holy Land their support faded, amid growing envy of their fortune in property and banking.

The rest is here if you can't see it at the Times site...I tried and couldn't bring it up with that link but it was 3 years ago, so maybe it is archived now.

There are a few things we need to look at..

Firstly the Shroud of Turin is re creatable, its creation was not magical as some people may claim.

Secondly, carbon dating is not the best thing with a subject like the Shroud because it has been suggested that there may be different parts to the shroud that have been added at different times.

Thirdly, even if it is from the era we are claiming that this is the shroud that Jesus wore which is crazy. We do not even know if Jesus existed and there were millions of people in that era it becomes statistically impossible for it to belong to the one person we claim.


Lets also take a look at the people making the claim.
We are talking about the church, this is not good for the claim because over the centuries the church have proved themselves to not be trustworthy and people who will lie and manipulate to spread their business.

The figure in the shroud does actually resemble some works of art from the era.

Originally posted by randomtangentsrme

Originally posted by Dustytoad
reply to post by randomtangentsrme

 

You believe that I believe haha. Ok. I don't have to believe things I know.

I don't think his contemporaries are that powerful. But I can understand you not believing me.

the 13 and 33 were a reference to the Masons so you know... It's why I find the numbers a little too perfect to be true.

By no means am I trying to discount your personal experience. Not being you, I cannot have a say one way or another about the beliefs you hold to be true.
I do not understand what is powerful about the natural decomposition of a dead body. We are all born with the ability to decompose.

I have not gotten around to researching masonic conspiracies. The few masons I know are good, honest hardworking individuals so I've never given much thought to it. Sorry I missed the reference.

Last time I will say this. Quit putting your belief on me. Your belief is that I believe something. I don't have to. I KNOW.. jeez dude. Like talking to a wall. Ever heard of the 33rd degree mason? 13 stars 13 stripes... 13 steps...

I am not talking about any kind of conspiracy involving Masons. Show me somewhere I said that lol..

The numbers just seem suspect. too perfect. As if someone is just telling a story. It's not like the guys name was actually Jesus. Can't even make a J sound...

I know you believe you are communicating, but I cannot speak on your belief... I am not a believer, I have no faith other than faith in me. I am NOT Christian. Jesus is a baddazz though. sorry it's just the truth. And the Truth is the shroud is real.

What's so important about a dead body? Absolutely nothing. get over it. The only importance I place on the shroud is that it IS what he LOOKS like NOW...

Originally posted by Dustytoad

Last time I will say this. Quit putting your belief on me. Your belief is that I believe something. I don't have to. I KNOW.. jeez dude. Like talking to a wall. Ever heard of the 33rd degree mason? 13 stars 13 stripes... 13 steps...

I am not talking about any kind of conspiracy involving Masons. Show me somewhere I said that lol..

What belief of mine have I put on you besides saying I trust you are not lying? To quote myself: "Not being you, I cannot have a say one way or another about the beliefs you hold to be true."

But as you are so insistent on saying I am "putting your belief on me," I will give you something I believe: There is no truth only perception.
I am glad that you "KNOW." For those of us that do not, could you present some evidence of anything you have claimed on this thread?
I have heard a bit of masons in general including 33 degree masons. Although I do not know the significance of the 13. Rather than attempt to belittle me, when I am honestly looking for answers, perhaps directing me to where I can find the information presented in a clear, concise, and above all non biased account. Thank you in advance.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your reply. The individual that posted above you had a pretty good post in regards to your truths.

If the shroud image was created by radiation then it can be recreated in a laboratory.

But I have a different take on it. I wonder if the artist meant for it to be a work of art that was meant to honor Jesus, and not meant to be a holy artifact.

reply to post by Brandon88


Was this image on the shroud not made by blood and sweat? Is it possible to extract DNA from it or any other significant marker?

heres's what I think is most convincing...I watch a documentry on the Discovery Channel (not sure if it was this one or not) and they said that the only way to get an image into fabric like that and to render it in 3D out of a picture was that the original image had to be scanned into the fabric.