Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by getreadyalready


I guess we'd have to put them against each other to find out. I'd still stand by the fact that it's going to be no where near a males capabilities.

And I think the earliest surgery is performed is at 16.. Probably not in the US. However a german pop star, Kim Petras has transitioned fully at age 16 with SRS. Although her music is pretty bad.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights
There isn't a tricky issue here.

Trans-women are women. PERIOD. And if people don't want to acknowledge that reality, then it's you whose living in a dream world. Get over yourself, and go read up on transgender studies and what they are about. It's not a lifestyle choice, it's not someone confused, it's not someone who are two genders at once. Trans-women are women, should be recognized as women, and therefore, trans-women should be allowed to do the SAME THINGS without any drama or calamity that straight women do.

Can they give birth?

Should a trans-woman be allowed to compete in woman's bodybuilding or the WNBA? What if a trans-woman beats up another woman, is it a fair fight? Would it be admissable in court that she used to be a man? Would it be pertinent to the case?

Of course it is a tricky issue, don't try to sugarcoat it, or pretend it is simple.

Not being able to give birth is a weak argument at best, there are a great number of women, real women as people like would like to call them, that cannot have children, does that make them any lesser women, or maybe not "real" women?

then i guess in the next poker game ill just decide i have a royal flush, regardless of what cards im delt.

and if you disagree your a damn bigot.

gg.

i win.

reply to post by RyanFromCan


this is an easy one, it actually has nothing to do with ability to give birth.

does his/her chromosomes say XX or XY?

i can solve this one for you real quickly.

Originally posted by _R4t_
Here's a question of the whole transgendered supporting crew.

Because science and technology also can do it if tomorrow I decide get a facial reconstruction and melanin shot when I'm done I am black as black can be and look like an African American.

Here are my questions...

-Do I have the right to call myself an African American?

-Can I claim the injustice done to the black people in the past as if they had been done to me too?

-Do I have the right to be mad or critic people that knows I was born a native american for not accepting me
and refusing to completely forget what you already know to be true and learn a lie just so YOU can be happy???

-Do I have the right to be mad at true african americans because they don't accept me as one of their own???

-If I take DNA test am I going to be a African American?

-Does this give me the right to represent African Americans in any contests?


EVEN if I find a way to mod my DNA in such way that it appears to be from an African American who am I trying to fool in reality the others or myself?


It truly makes me laugh when people walk around living in a box of lies and hope that if they repeat the same lie long enough it'll become true... Then they critic opposition stating they are narrow minded...

1) Not all black people are of African descent, so not even all "black" people can call themselves that, but you could, and probably would call yourself black, I can only imagine the reaction you would get if you called yourself white, kind of like a transwoman saying publicly she is a "man" when she does not look like a man.

2) This point you makes is ridiculous, as some already do that, regardless of their family history.

Your next two points, you have that right, either way, nobody has to tell you that you don't have that right to feel or say how you feel.

5) As far as DNA, There are conditions that are rare, but do exist where babies of white parents, are born black, and babies of black parents are born white (albino) so the DNA argument is somewhat mute. I am sure their babies would confirm this.

6) You would have no more, and no less rights to represent yourself or your position as a SELF appointed ambassador, unless you were selected as Mr. (or Miss) X in a previous competition and had moved to that level, then I would say you have received a tacit endorsement to represent them.

if a computer program purports to be a game, but its underlying code suggests its a virus....should you open it just because it calls itself a "game"?

ask the trojans how well that worked for them...

reply to post by RyanFromCan





OK......Does she menstruate?

Dictionary defination

menstruation...the monthly shedding of the uterus in women and post pubescent girls.

Originally posted by LurkerLegacy
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

this is an easy one, it actually has nothing to do with ability to give birth.

does his/her chromosomes say XX or XY?

i can solve this one for you real quickly.

Well, this argument is bunk, because there are women born, medically identifiable women, who do not fit your model. the same can be said for males, there are males born that do not fit your pattern, then again, maybe they are not "real" people by your standard, just freaks of nature?

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities

Lets start with the female chromosome abnormalities.

Turner Syndrome

Turner syndrome click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced occurs when females inherit only one X chromosome--their genotype is X0 (i.e., monosomy X). If they survive to birth, these girls have abnormal growth patterns. They are short in stature, averaging 4 foot 7 inches as adults, and often have distinctive webbed necks (i.e., extra folds of skin), small jaws, and high arched palates. They generally lack prominent female secondary sexual characteristics. They have exceptionally small, widely spaced breasts, broad shield-shaped chests, and turned-out elbows. Their ovaries do not develop normally and they do not ovulate.

So here we have "not real" women born women who do not have a "Y" chromosome, Does this make them non women?

Triple-X Syndrome

Triple-X syndrome occurs in women who inherit three X chromosomes--their genotype is XXX or more rarely XXXX or XXXXX. As adults, these "super-females" or "metafemales" click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced, as they are sometimes known, generally are an inch or so taller than average with unusually long legs and slender torsos but otherwise appear normal. They usually have normal development of sexual characteristics and are fertile.

Now we have "non-women" who do not fit your nice little "XX" pattern, but are still fertile, and can have children, but maybe they should be banned from woman's sport because as a result of their medical condition they tend to grow taller, giving them a possible advantage in sport?

Now we get into the interesting ones.

Klinefelter syndrome

males inherit one or more extra X chromosomes--their genotype is XXY or more rarely XXXY or XY/XXY mosaic. In severe cases, they have relatively high-pitched voices, asexual to feminine body contours as well as breast enlargement, and comparatively little facial and body hair. They are sterile or nearly so, and their testes and prostate gland are small. As a result, they produce relatively small amounts of testosterone. The feminizing effects of this hormonal imbalance can be significantly diminished if Klinefelter syndrome boys are regularly given testosterone from the age of puberty on

They are usually capable of normal sexual function, including erection and ejaculation, but many, if not most, are unable to produce sufficient amounts of sperm for conception. Klinefelter syndrome males with more than two X chromosomes usually have extreme symptoms and are often slightly retarded mentally. Men who are mosaic (XY/XXY) generally have the least problems. There is no evidence that Klinefelter syndrome boys and men are more inclined to be homosexual, but they are more likely to be less interested in sex. They have a higher than average risk of developing osteoporosis, diabetes, and other autoimmune disorders that are more common in women.

Now we have men with XX+Y and/or XY/XX+Y mix, and sometimes XXX+Y Chromosomes, who can look like women, talk like women, and are prone to having medical conditions more often found in women, like osteoporosis. So are these "men" not real men, should they not be allowed in the men's restroom because they may have breasts, I mean, after all, they don't even have the ability to reproduce, so they can't possibly be "real" men right?

And here is my personal favorite for those "but they should not be allowed to play sports because their chromosomes are not XX or XY" people.

XYY Syndrome

males inherit an extra Y chromosome--their genotype is XYY. As adults, these "super-males" are usually tall (above 6 feet) and generally appear and act normal. However, they produce high levels of testosterone. During adolescence, they often are slender, have severe facial acne, and are poorly coordinated. They are usually fertile and lead ordinary lives as adults.

However, some researchers suggest that the high testosterone levels of XYY men can make them somewhat more prone to violence and that this may cause higher rates of wife beating.

WOW, "super-males" we better weed them out of sport, "real" men might not get a fair shake, hey, let's just throw them in the slammer, before they beat their partners.

does your friend have any of these syndromes?

didnt think so.

now answer the question.

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

OK......Does she menstruate?

Dictionary defination

menstruation...the monthly shedding of the uterus in women and post pubescent girls.

My mother was surgically "modified" with a total hysterectomy, it was a physical impossibility for her to menstruate after that, did she suddenly became a "fake" woman?

Just out of curiosity, when medicine advances to the point where a transwoman can be given an uterus that allows her to menstruate, does she suddenly become a "real" woman?

mutant

mu·tant
   [myoot-nt]
adjective
1.
undergoing or resulting from mutation.

noun
2.
a new type of organism produced as the result of mutation.

Mutation

mu·ta·tion
   [myoo-tey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
Biology .
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
4.
Phonetics . umlaut.
5.
Linguistics . (in Celtic languages) syntactically determined morphophonemic phenomena that affect initial sounds of words.

before you get all irate, just know that i did not author the english language.

Originally posted by LurkerLegacy
does your friend have any of these syndromes?

didnt think so.

now answer the question.

I was not aware that unlike me, you were privy to any medical issues that this woman had, how are you so sure that this transwoman does NOT have any of the above conditions?

My post was simply to debunk the myth put forward that all women have an XX chromosome, and that this is what made them "real" women, and that all men had an XY chromosome, and that is what made them "real" men, if you read the linked evidence, you will find the in both sexes, chromosome problems occurs that in fact affect their appearance, and body function, and even what could be considered their gender identifiers, compared to the biological "sex" they were born with, and this all can happen without a choice being made by the person affected.

Now, I suggest that if you want a real answer, you ask a real question. Try doing a little research before you ask, rather than spew out learned stereotypes or preconceived fallacies.

reply to post by RyanFromCan


now i know this will sound insensitive, but in the unlikely event your friend actually has one of those rare mutations then she is not infact a woman or a man, but a mutant according to the english language

but lets not kid ourselves, 99% of the poeple we are discussing just decided one day that they like the other gender better and are perfectly healthy as far as genetics are concerned.

Originally posted by LurkerLegacy
mutant

mu·tant
   [myoot-nt]
adjective
1.
undergoing or resulting from mutation.

noun
2.
a new type of organism produced as the result of mutation.

Mutation

mu·ta·tion
   [myoo-tey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
Biology .
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
4.
Phonetics . umlaut.
5.
Linguistics . (in Celtic languages) syntactically determined morphophonemic phenomena that affect initial sounds of words.

You do realize, that your ignorance has just labeled a huge segment of the human race as mutants right? You may even be one yourself. If you bothered to read the linked evidence, you might find that many who have these chromosome abnormalities do not even know they have them and lead relatively normal lives, but if they were to be tested, would find that they do not fit the narrow XX/XY definition for what constitutes a man and a woman.

What do you suggest we do with all these mutants running amok in society? Now think carefully, you may be one of "them".

Originally posted by LurkerLegacy
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

now i know this will sound insensitive, but in the unlikely event your friend actually has one of those rare mutations then she is not infact a woman or a man, but a mutant according to the english language

but lets not kid ourselves, 99% of the poeple we are discussing just decided one day that they like the other gender better and are perfectly healthy as far as genetics are concerned.

Do you have any citations as far as your 99% number, or is that just a number you came up with VIA your preconceived notions and learned repulsion to anything you don't understand?

reply to post by RyanFromCan


rofl.

your one to talk about fallacies.

if they dont know they are mutants how the hell can your statistical information be accurately reported?

reply to post by RyanFromCan


i just did what you and your articles did.

pulled the number out of my ass.

furthermore my original post to you was a question, not an argument. making it specific to your friend. which forces the odds in my favor. you and i both know this.

reply to post by LurkerLegacy


I provided a link to my quoted (non statistical, but rather factual medical) information, clearly you either did not see the link, chose not to look at it, or are incapable of reading or understanding it, but for your sake, I will link it again here for you.

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities

Funny enough, I never quoted numbers for anything, I simply provided a link to a site (from Palomar College) that dispelled the notion that XX or XY chromosomes are what defined men and women. I did not "pull" that information from my, or anyone else "ass", which clearly you are being. I think it might be best to ignore you to be honest, as clearly you have either failed to, or brought the wrong "ammunition" to this debate.

Feel free to continue when you can be bothered to make a coherent and interesting argument, your arguments as petty and dull.

reply to post by RyanFromCan




Your nmother was obviously a woman, after all she gave birth to you after having

menustrated for some time. As a woman she developed a condition which required

surgery but it didn't alter the FACT that she WAS and IS a WOMAN....And it is a well

documented fact that a breast removal and hysterectomy effects women psychologically

and often makes them feel less of a woman!

In this instance it is the removal of the female accoutrements NOT the adding to, to make

a female!

Does the removal of a limb or the appendix, tonsils, or even the prostate of a man make

him less of a man ?

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by LurkerLegacy

 

I provided a link to my quoted (non statistical, but rather factual medical) information, clearly you either did not see the link, chose not to look at it, or are incapable of reading or understanding it, but for your sake, I will link it again here for you.

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities

Funny enough, I never quoted numbers for anything, I simply provided a link to a site (from Palomar College) that dispelled the notion that XX or XY chromosomes are what defined men and women. I did not "pull" that information from my, or anyone else "ass", which clearly you are being. I think it might be best to ignore you to be honest, as clearly you have either failed to, or brought the wrong "ammunition" to this debate.

Feel free to continue when you can be bothered to make a coherent and interesting argument, your arguments as petty and dull.

I've argued the point of abnormal chromosomes. They don't want to hear it, or deny that its possible.

This is an internet forum, and the "popular" replies aren't always the most valid or factual. As an example, go through the thread and look at how many stars are given for blatantly ignorant statements. Compare that to what I've received as a real life doctor who has dealt with this issue on MANY occasions. It becomes obvious that people really don't care about right information, just information that fits their personal belief system.