Taureg's Descend Upon Timbuktu in bid to Recapture their Inheritance...

reply to post by Biliverdin


i kind of promised that I wouldn't post until more info came from the front line in Timbuktu...but I wanted to add something about Chicagoland.

i went to the Jewel, a supermarket for our international readers, to buy some whiskey and tobacco and this tall native man was working behind the counter.

additional info for our international readers: an American supermarket is a wonderful place of happiness and great plenty.

my wife, who is Filipino. also saw him and was very excited to be able to say she has seen a real live native american....

many aren't consciously aware that the words Chicago and Illinois are Native words...not European...and that native people still live here and would probably be offended by the idea that Chicago was nothing serious until 1837.

but I know many of you are stuck dealing with most ridiculous beliefs and hardly even know what you are talking about most of the time.

reply to post by michaelbrux


You would try the patience of a saint...however I'll take this slow, a city is defined by it's governance by an elected Mayor and officials. A town by it's governance by the town's people. That is all. As I said, just administrative nonsense. Soooo...to say it was founded as a city simply means that the means of governance changed. It also means it got to have it's own police force, rather than, presumably, county police (it is slightly different in the US to the UK so I can't be entirely sure, in the UK a city usually needs to have a cathedral too). No one, not even wikipedia, is arguing that Chicago didn't exist prior to that point, it just didn't have city designation. However to suggest just because it is vast and well established that it must be older than two hundred years is a considerable show of ignorance of the history of US town/city planning, after all look at the size of San Francisco? In 1849 that consisted of little more than a muddy stream and a couple of wooden shacks.

*Sigh* Why do I feel that this is all incredibly futile? Probably because it is, she replied.

Anyway...

Back to Timbuktu and the Tuareg...

According to Al Jazeera...

Tuareg rebels in Mali's north have expressed a willingness to negotiate with the government or regional bloc ECOWAS after having seized the ancient city of Timbuktu.

The rebel offensive came amid the chaos gripping the West African country following last week's military coup.

The National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad (MNLA) said they were no longer seeking to expand their area of control, having secured the borders of what the group considers to be a Tuareg homeland.

"Our objective it not to go further than the Azawad borders. We don't want to create problems for the government of Mali, and even less create problems in the sub-region," said Hama Ag Mahmoud, of the MNLA's political wing.

"We don't want to give anyone the impression that we're gung-ho for the war, so from the moment we have liberated our territories, our objective is achieved, we stop there."

He said that while his group had not yet been contacted regarding talks, they were open to them.

www.aljazeera.com...

It seems as though the Tuareg have acheived their objectives and now wish to reassure the outside world that they are not inclined towards a prolonged conflict. Given Mali's already tenuous economic position, not to mention the high level of poverty in the region, sanctions would be fatal to the country. I sincerely hope that there can at least be some form of detente between the various factions, pronlonged conflict can surely be in no-one's interest, or certainly no-one in Mali.

The Mud Mosque at Timbuktu

The National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad (MNLA) said they were no longer seeking to expand their area of control, having secured the borders of what the group considers to be a Tuareg homeland.

"Our objective it not to go further than the Azawad borders. We don't want to create problems for the government of Mali, and even less create problems in the sub-region," said Hama Ag Mahmoud, of the MNLA's political wing.

"We don't want to give anyone the impression that we're gung-ho for the war, so from the moment we have liberated our territories, our objective is achieved, we stop there."

www.aljazeera.com...

Being as it is that I was attracted to this thread because I wanted to see something good happen to the mighty Taureg, I am beyond stoked.

First, Biliverdin, that was a masterful display of ATS power posting. Thanks for the ride, that was a feel good hit for the whole family.

I'm just a giant fan-boy of history's great pastoralist cultures and the Tauregs are way up there, I realize my enthusiasm may be a little misguided but...

Hell Yeah! The Taureg People Hold Timbuktu!

Whoooooo!

X.

Here's a link to a story about the Taureg people from Parabola Magazine.

www.parabola.org...

reply to post by Xoanon


In all honestly I feel the same way, and what I am most impressed by, from both sides, is the respect for the lives of those who live in the region. There has been, and I hope it remains that way, a huge attempt to prevent the loss of life by those not involved in the power struggle. Quite unique that, these days.

I have to say, I get tingles about those books, and I really hope that whatever else happens that the preservation and restoration of those books continues, not just for the sake of the knowledge either, but for the jobs it provides in an area where jobs are beyond scarce. This is one of the oldest seats of learning in the world, I hope it sees a revitalisation of that tradition.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by michaelbrux

 

You would try the patience of a saint...however I'll take this slow, a city is defined by it's governance by an elected Mayor and officials. A town by it's governance by the town's people. That is all. As I said, just administrative nonsense. Soooo...to say it was founded as a city simply means that the means of governance changed. It also means it got to have it's own police force, rather than, presumably, county police (it is slightly different in the US to the UK so I can't be entirely sure, in the UK a city usually needs to have a cathedral too). No one, not even wikipedia, is arguing that Chicago didn't exist prior to that point, it just didn't have city designation. However to suggest just because it is vast and well established that it must be older than two hundred years is a considerable show of ignorance of the history of US town/city planning, after all look at the size of San Francisco? In 1849 that consisted of little more than a muddy stream and a couple of wooden shacks.

*Sigh* Why do I feel that this is all incredibly futile? Probably because it is, she replied.

Anyway...

you know...all that you said is completely reasonable...but it should still be noted the exceptional (legendary) vigor of 19th and early to mid 20th century Chicagoans and Americans as a whole to have raised so many magnificent cities across an area of nearly 10,000,000 square kilometers of land starting with little to nothing.

when you consider the existence of cities like Cairo, Egypt or Baghdad or Moscow or London or Beijing, which are thousands of years old as are the nations they reside and America was built up in little over 170 years to become the leader of them all, economically, financially and militarily etc...in about 5 or 6 generations. How can one not stand before America and not be in complete awe at the scale of the development effort?

stranger still, is that even after acquiring and employing incalculable resources in such a short period of time, our generation is finding it difficult to simply keep the place clean, well managed and profitable. borrowing more and more just to keep things the same.

19th century Americans must have been Giants. the entire population was only 17,000,000 in 1840 and 63,000,000 in 1890.

in the town i'm from...by then a class of wealthy industrialists and land owners had already risen and as had social stratification that caused labor riots and everything.

its as if this country has been on steroids for most of its history...when did they find time to rest and reproduce?

anyway...future archaeologists will compare the rise of America to the building of the Pyramids at Giza...

...what happened here is going to be hard pressed to reproduce.

and just think...the first Mayor of Chicago was only 32 when he took office...exceptional vision, exceptional.

Originally posted by Q33323
Here's a link to a story about the Taureg people from Parabola Magazine.

www.parabola.org...

Thanks for posting that, I really enjoyed it. Although set in a different region, it reminded me, a similar romanticism I suppose, of the books of Paul Bowles that I read as a teenager.

Such a shame that the way of life of the Tuareg should have to become confined by the demands of border control, and if for that reason they are forced to settle, because of the need of a fixed address for passport purposes, where better for them to be based that Timbuktu.

Originally posted by michaelbrux

On Sunday, nomadic Tuaregs who descended from the people who first created Timbuktu in the 11th century and seized it from invaders in 1434, attacked the city in their fight to create a homeland for the Sahara's blue-turbanned nomads.

I saw this part, and the bit about "blue-turbanned nomads" reminded me of an old Nostradamus prophecy.

Quatrain 9:73
The Blue Turban King entered into Foix,
And he will reign less than an evolution of Saturn:
The White Turban King Byzantium heart banished,
Sun, Mars and Mercury near Aquarius.

He was also attributed to having said the following;

Out of the country of Greater Arabia Shall be born a strong master of Mohammed,
He will enter Europe wearing a blue turban.
He will be the terror of mankind.
Never more horror.

However I have yet to find an actual source.

Supposedly he said the Anti-Christ would come from the Middle of the Earth..some say that is Africa.
Again...I haven't been able to locate actually sources, Nostradamus is not a strong knowledge area of mine.

I just thought I would share.

reply to post by michaelbrux


If you've not already read them, you might find Herbert Asbury's Gangs of...New York/Chicago/San Francisco etc series of books interesting. Don't let Scorsese's appalling adaptation of the Gangs of New York put you off, they are highly factual studies of the origins of the great cities, politically, socially and economically, of the United States. Brilliant reads.

reply to post by nuke_c


thought of nostradamus also when the blue turbans were mentioned.

but, i don't consider him something i can work with...each time something happens i see a slightly different variation of what he supposedly wrote.

i appreciate you and everyone who is adding info to this thread but to me Nostradamus seems to be the Sorcha Faal of that time period.

reply to post by Biliverdin


it seems clear that the Taureg have specific goals and may have already achieved them.

the speed with which they moved upon the city and took control suggests that whatever was holding them back in the past was no longer an obstacle and there was probably not much actual fighting or resistance.

that should make the peaceniks and anti-revenge crowd more comfortable with how things are proceeding.

some locations in the world have a value greater than money, Timbuktu has not much economic value outside of tourism, i guess its one of those places that is worth nothing and everything all at the same time.

news.yahoo.com...

"The north is 1,000 percent in the hands of the rebels. There's no resistance, there's nothing. ... They have taken all the strategic points. In all the towns," said an official in the mayor's office in Kidal, who requested anonymity because he feared for his safety. "There is no Malian state left."

Residents of Timbuktu on Monday awoke to find the ominous black flag of the Islamist faction flying over their ancient city, a worrying development in a city that used to rely on tourism for the bulk of its economy.

"The rebels completely control the city. But there are several movements among them," said Halle.

The mayor of Timbuktu said that it's unclear which of the rebel movements has the upper hand. He said that he has requested a meeting with the spiritual head of Ansar Dine in order to complain about the proliferation of weapons.

If I had to take a guess the Rebel movement with the weakest hand is the one currently attempting to project the strongest presence.

These types of things end quietly.

Iyad ag Ghaly is a Malian religious leader and militant who has been active in the Tuareg rebellions against the government of Mali since the 1980s. He is a member of the Tuareg ethnic group and the current leader of Ansar Dine.

Witnesses have said Ansar Dine fighters wear long beards and fly black flags, at least some of them emblazoned with white Arabic lettering.

I guess the honeymoon is over.

news.nationalpost.com...

Tuareg rebels chased from Timbuktu by Islamist forces one day after capturing Malian city together

BAMAKO — A renowned Islamist leader and his fighters on Monday seized control of Timbuktu and chased out the Tuareg rebels with whom they captured Mali’s fabled city a day earlier, witnesses said.

“Iyad [Ag Ghaly] came this morning with about 50 cars. They took the city, chased away the people from MNLA [Azawad National Liberation Movement] who were there, burned the MNLA flag and put their own flag up at the military camp,” said cameraman Moussa Haidara who filmed events.

i suppose that would mean that the guys with the Black Flag wasted no time revealing their intentions to their host...

doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this goes from here.

The Tuareg people have had their way of life ( nomadic trading ) thoroughly taken from them by shady groups of people who use trucks to tear around the open desert, destroying not only how people live by I am sure doing damage to the ecology out there. They eek out a living on the fringes of their old land, but keep their heads up and their pride alive.

They seem perfectly reasonable in their demands, and I am glad that they at least have made some leeway in retaking their land. Also, while they do have Islamic likenesses in their religion, they actually practice a more melding of Islam and their centuries old belief of Animism. Maybe that was the flash point between them and the more gung-ho, completely Islamic rebels fighting alongside them. When you're dealing with fanatics of -any- religion/belief, the slightest difference will cause a schism.

If more native peoples would rise up against the ones who stole their land, a lot of us would be in a world of hurt.

reply to post by ScarletNyx


I don't think that's the case. the Tuareg appear to have the upper hand; the group of rebels that betrayed those people are spending their first full night in a cage.

oddly enough, this has to be only example, i've ever seen of someone willingly choosing to live in a prison and calling it a victory.

reply to post by michaelbrux


Given the isolation of the place, I am starting to wonder how much spin they are putting into the 'Islamic Fighters' presence...after all no one can get there to verify the information...but as you say, most news agencies are now reporting that the Tuaregs have been 'chased out' of Timbuktu...

Now sanctions have been imposed on the Junta, presumably to force their hand in fighting back, and not negotiating with the rebels, which would have seemed to have been the best, and most peaceable solution to the situation. France and Belguim have instructed their citizens to leave the country, but have, at this stage, ruled out any military intervention on their part.

Mali is completely dependent on imports, and therefore this action can only lead to further damage to the countries infrastructure, and will inevitably lead to further displacement of the population. More over, freezes have been placed on the banks, meaning that government employees will not get paid... All these actions are not aiding the situation at all, if anything, if Islamic fighters are ousting the Tuareg, it is playing into their hands and can only lead to increased beligerancy. And, of course, to yet another humanitarian disaster.

There is to be an emergency meeting of the UN security council tomorrow to discuss the situation. I sincerely hope that someone amongst that council has some sense and can actually see beyond the end of their nose, and realise that people's lives are at stake here. Surely they cannot be so ensconced in their ivory towers to realise that sanctions and the freezing of assets has been repeatedly proven to only exacerbate the situation.

In the meantime, I remain dubious about reports that the Tuaregs have been chased out of Timbuktu.

www.news24.com...