The Trinity before and after Jesus's birth

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yahweh had to diminish and take on human form

Is that diminishing related to Tzimtzum, or contraction?

Tzimtzum (Hebrew צמצום ṣimṣūm "contraction" or "constriction") is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalah teaching of Isaac Luria, explaining his concept that God began the process of creation by "contracting" his infinite light in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which a finite and seemingly independent world could exist. This contraction, forming an "empty space" (חלל הפנוי) in which creation could begin, is known as the Tzimtzum.
Because the Tzimtzum results in the conceptual "space" in which the physical universe and free will can exist, God is often referred to as "Ha-Makom" (המקום lit. "the place", "the omnipresent") in Rabbinic literature. Relatedly, olam—the Hebrew word for "world" or universe—is derived from the root word עלם meaning "concealment". This etymology is complementary with the concept of Tzimtzum, in that the physical universe conceals the spiritual nature of creation.

Jesus is God, he said it and according to the Tamud it's what got him crucified...he was crucified for blasphemy

Then Jesus died for his own violation of Torah?

If the post Christian Lurianic Kabbalah had been in effect in the days of Jesus, then he could have gotten away with calling himself God? Since any part of creation contains the concealed omnipresent one? Or no one was supposed to talk about it, and Jesus was killed for talking about it?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Lionhearte
When Jesus spoke this, he was doing so from a position of humiliation. Yahweh had to diminish and take on human form before he could bear the sin of the world. Jesus is God, he said it and according to the Tamud it's what got him crucified...he was crucified for blasphemy (saying he was the Heavenly Father).

Right. Well, the Jews believed he was blaspheming, except he wasn't because he really was God. Even TECHNICALLY speaking, he wasn't blaspheming - read the Gospel of John.

John 10:31-39 - 31 Then the people again picked up stones to throw at him. 32 Jesus said to them, "I have done many good deeds in your presence which the Father gave me to do; for which one of these do you want to stone me?" 33 They answered, We do not want to stone you because of any good deeds, but because of your blasphemy! You are only a man, but you are trying to make yourself God! 34 Jesus answered, "It is written in your own Law that God said, 'You are gods.' 35 We know that what the scripture says is true forever; and God called those people gods, the people to whom his message was given. 36 As for me, the Father chose me and sent me into the world. How, then, can you say that I blaspheme because I said that I am the Son of God?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by AdamsMurmur

 

LOL your funny, why don't you look at his posts and threads and you will see that he's nothing but a religion troll.

I figured that out a long time ago bro, because he gravitates to anything that is about God/Jesus to troll believers in an effort to make them look foolish and i rarely ever see him post outside religion or conspiracies in religion.

Yep, just a religious fundamentalist without God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by borntowatch
We are finite He is infinite.

Does it make sense for this god to punish finite creatures infinitely?

edit on 1-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Absolutely, thats a good question. Humanity is not according to the bible eternal outside of Jesus.
Dont quote me on that though. Another BIG question I cant answer.
Is hell forever for humanity?

Dude, that's horrible Physics. Anyone who has had a NDE will tell you "soul sleep" is not true. I especially like the ones from people who were born blind or deaf from birth and can either see or hear what doctors and nurses are doing/saying when they die.

Dude can you guarantee me that hell is eternal for humans, then show me evidence.
I havnt seen any, one way or the other. I am not saying humans dont go to hell, just it may not be eternal.

reply to post by pthena

Since any part of creation contains the concealed omnipresent one?

According to my current version of a theory on Life, God, the Universe, and Everything,
the "one" is spread throughout the universe.
For an illustration, I could think of the saying of Jesus,
"In my father's house there are many mansions."
Not the specific case, but the general concept.
The "one" is not in one place, and really isn't even a one any longer, but dwells in the population of the universe, one part at a time, to where our own core existence hearkens back to when there was no universe but there was the desire to live in a universe. We knew (the collective "we", before there was a we) that for there to be a universe, and in order to truly live in it, we had to cease to be as we were and had to become a new thing, which was spread but ever connected in a spiritual unity.

Of course my theory is more properly merely a rudimentary hypotheses potentially leading to a theory, rather than an actual theory. The reason being, there are remaining problems inherent in this scheme which are yet to be worked out. One reason that easily comes to mind, for my awareness of these problems, is my recent decision to quit apologizing for the NT canonical book, Revelation, and to write it off as a non-christian, politically motivated propaganda piece, and not an authoritative, inspired work to guide our understanding of our future and the possible reordering of the nature of the universe. Once that source for dogma mining is eliminated, then there is hard work ahead to locate more viable sources in order to determine what the possible consequences are from our physical deaths, and the nature of the lives our spiritual selves, that may or may not come afterwards.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Yea, I understand what you're asking, sorry if I failed to explain it lol. It's good to have questions

It's kind of hard to comprehend, but the Trinity, as you've said, consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All of these three are different, because they are all different "persons" but they are all the same - one God.

To answer your question, no, the Trinity did not exist before the Word became Flesh. However, the Word IS God, so the Trinity, though not existing in 325 B.C., Jesus still existed, because Jesus is the Word, and the Word was with God from the beginning.

So, again; No. The trinity did not exist before Christ became Flesh, but Christ existed since the beginning - because He is God.

There WAS a Trinity before The Word assumed a fleshly body. There are two Trinities. God as he is within Himself(Immanent) and God as He reveals Himself to us(economic). God's personas(immanent Trinity) of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are infinite.

First, John 1:1 pertains to divine Persons of the immanent Trinity, not the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God. Furthermore, the ancients were aware of conceptual difficulties with respect to God being one yet three, but they also understood that if John 1:1 is to be taken at face value, then God must be “one” in one sense, and “three” in a different sense (Catholic Encyclopedia, 296). With time it became apparent that the conceptual obstacles were not insurmountable once it became clear that the answer lies not in comparisons to the material, vegetable or sensory worlds, but in the intellectual and psychological.

For instance, “Justin pictures the preexistent Word as the Father’s rational consciousness (1 Apol. 46; 2 Apol. 13), as emerging, therefore, from the interiority of the Godhead while never-the-less remaining inseparable from the Godhead” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 296).

Tertullian (d. 230 A.D.) displayed a good sense of the manner in which God is one, and the way in which he is at the same time three:

"God is indeed three: in grade or order, in appearance or aspect, but with a realist connotation, and in manifestation; but in substance (granting an indecisiveness in Tertullian’s use of the term), in power, God is perfectly one. (ibid., 297)

The Word stands forth and is other than the Father though still within the Godhead in the manner suggested by human reflection, as internal discourse is in some sense another, a second in addition to oneself, though yet within oneself. (ibid., 296)."

Irenaeus (d. 200 A.D.) saw the Son and Spirit’s roles as the two hands of the Father; and by the third century the three Persons were understood to be “distinct yet not divided, different yet not separate, and each with a particular yet complementary role to play in salvation” (Oxford, 1208).

Additionally, Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274 A.D.) elevated the psychological analogy to another level, drawing parallels with man’s understanding of self and the interior conceptualization of the intellect:

"Men can and do think of their own minds; and when the human intellect reflects upon itself, understands itself, there comes forth within the intellect, in consequence of the act of understanding, the concept or interior conceptualization of the intellect itself so understood.

This, moreover, is the only type of generation or coming forth that is possible in the immaterial and infinite Godhead. As God understands Himself, there issues forth from God Understanding (the Father) God Understood (the Son)."

In terms of this psychological analogy, then, the three Persons are both immanent to the undivided Godhead and yet distinct as Persons - as God understood in God Understanding, and as God Beloved in God Loving.

There are other ways to look at this. For example, you have a spirit within you; it is with you yet it is you. Or, in terms of one person being with another person, an individual with multiple personalities is one individual composed of multiple individuals in his mind, each of which is that person yet with him and each other. Or, Scripture states that husband and wife are one flesh, not two (Genesis 2:24), yet we accept this illogical unity on a spiritual, abstract level as perfectly acceptable.

Accordingly, the idea that the Word was God and was with God and that each of the three Persons of the Trinity dwell in each other is entirely within the realm of logical abstract possibilities. As a matter of fact it is perfectly reasonable. Bear in mind, we are dealing with spirit, and the immanent preincarnate Word at John 1:1, not the created humanity of Jesus(economic).

Finally, the Word’s relation to the Godhead, in the sense of being “with” God does not mean mere company, but the most intimate communion.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by AdamsMurmur

 

LOL your funny, why don't you look at his posts and threads and you will see that he's nothing but a religion troll.

I figured that out a long time ago bro, because he gravitates to anything that is about God/Jesus to troll believers in an effort to make them look foolish and i rarely ever see him post outside religion or conspiracies in religion.

Thought I'd stop back by before I left. Sorry to see you guys see me that way. Though it is true I gravitate towards the religious threads, because they interest me the most, I do post in many other types of threads, mostly ones that talk about end of the world predictions. But yeah, I post in other types of threads too.

What would be a better way to question religious beliefs without being considered a troll? Any suggestions?

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

There are two Trinities.

Really, two Trinities equal 6 gods, care to back that up from the bible with some real facts, and not some fantasy twisting of dogma.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Perhaps I should have prefaced that as I did my last post. From the Catholic/"Christian" perspective there are two trinities... And since that's the position I'm arguing, No I don't feel like backing that up with scripture. As we both know "The Church" has just as much authority as Scripture in the Catholic/Orthodox tradition, and two trinities still only equals one God as shown by the above post.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yahweh had to diminish and take on human form

Is that diminishing related to Tzimtzum, or contraction?

Tzimtzum (Hebrew צמצום ṣimṣūm "contraction" or "constriction") is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalah teaching of Isaac Luria, explaining his concept that God began the process of creation by "contracting" his infinite light in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which a finite and seemingly independent world could exist. This contraction, forming an "empty space" (חלל הפנוי) in which creation could begin, is known as the Tzimtzum.
Because the Tzimtzum results in the conceptual "space" in which the physical universe and free will can exist, God is often referred to as "Ha-Makom" (המקום lit. "the place", "the omnipresent") in Rabbinic literature. Relatedly, olam—the Hebrew word for "world" or universe—is derived from the root word עלם meaning "concealment". This etymology is complementary with the concept of Tzimtzum, in that the physical universe conceals the spiritual nature of creation.

Jesus is God, he said it and according to the Tamud it's what got him crucified...he was crucified for blasphemy

Then Jesus died for his own violation of Torah?

If the post Christian Lurianic Kabbalah had been in effect in the days of Jesus, then he could have gotten away with calling himself God? Since any part of creation contains the concealed omnipresent one? Or no one was supposed to talk about it, and Jesus was killed for talking about it?

Jesus was telling the truth and thats what got him crucified, he made alot of enemies in the Sanhedrin, alot of pharisee enemies too. As for the tzimtzum, never heard of it but it sounds plausible from the way it sounds. The spirit realm sits on a different dimension or wavelength than we do and higher beings are able to cross the veil that seperates the 2. The spirit realm is all around us, we just can't see it...like it sits at the opposite end of the spectrum.

The people who advocate Jesus not being God would rather say he never existed or that he was imaginary than go down the road where he really does exist. In order for Jesus to claim he was God he had to be one of these options:

A. Lying
B.Crazy
C.Stupid
D. Really Yahweh

Obviously he couldn't be lying, he was an observing jew. Obviously he wasn't crazy, any jew in that time period would have known that claiming to be God would lead to your death, and he obviously wasn't stupid or he never would have been able to foil the pharisees attempts to force him to break the law. The only thing they could hang him on was claiming to be God so that leaves only 2 choices, he was A, or D.

Considering scripture from the old testament and new testament, i'm voting for D. Anyone else accepting worship while claiming to be Yahweh would have been killed on the spot. Herod Antipas accepted praise for just making a grand speech and he was killed immediately.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

A. Lying
B.Crazy
C.Stupid
D. Really Yahweh

[color=DarkSlateGray]. . . . . .E. Jesus understood the meaning of the scriptures, including:

Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him.

edit on 2-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)