How am I supposed to take The Bible seriously...

Originally posted by dbrandt
Yes, society would be better off. That's what the old testament is about. God gave laws to live by. 100% complete compliance.

I pretty sure I remember that one of the messages of Jesus was that we should not be slaves to the law and that Jesus came to loggerheads with those who found fault with his healing the sick and such on the Sabbath.

Consider the following:

Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: "Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings--the best as I view it--and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?" When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

"Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

"These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

"Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

mercy.urantia.org...

What really happened was this: Early the third morning of the feast, as Jesus approached the temple, he was met by a group of the hired agents of the Sanhedrin who were dragging a woman along with them. As they came near, the spokesman said: "Master, this woman was taken in adultery--in the very act. Now, the law of Moses commands that we should stone such a woman. What do you say should be done with her?"

It was the plan of Jesus' enemies, if he upheld the law of Moses requiring that the self-confessed transgressor be stoned, to involve him in difficulty with the Roman rulers, who had denied the Jews the right to inflict the death penalty without the approval of a Roman tribunal. If he forbade stoning the woman, they would accuse him before the Sanhedrin of setting himself up above Moses and the Jewish law. If he remained silent, they would accuse him of cowardice. But the Master so managed the situation that the whole plot fell to pieces of its own sordid weight.
mercy.urantia.org...

It was around noon on Monday, May 3, when Jesus and the twelve came to Bethsaida by boat from Tarichea. They traveled by boat in order to escape those who journeyed with them. But by the next day the others, including the official spies from Jerusalem, had again found Jesus.

On Tuesday evening Jesus was conducting one of his customary classes of questions and answers when the leader of the six spies said to him: "I was today talking with one of John's disciples who is here attending upon your teaching, and we were at a loss to understand why you never command your disciples to fast and pray as we Pharisees fast and as John bade his followers." And Jesus, referring to a statement by John, answered this questioner: "Do the sons of the bridechamber fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as the bridegroom remains with them, they can hardly fast. But the time is coming when the bridegroom shall be taken away, and during those times the children of the bridechamber undoubtedly will fast and pray. To pray is natural for the children of light, but fasting is not a part of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Be reminded that a wise tailor does not sew a piece of new and unshrunk cloth upon an old garment, lest, when it is wet, it shrink and produce a worse rent. Neither do men put new wine into old wine skins, lest the new wine burst the skins so that both the wine and the skins perish. The wise man puts the new wine into fresh wine skins. Therefore do my disciples show wisdom in that they do not bring too much of the old order over into the new teaching of the gospel of the kingdom. You who have lost your teacher may be justified in fasting for a time. Fasting may be an appropriate part of the law of Moses, but in the coming kingdom the sons of God shall experience freedom from fear and joy in the divine spirit."

And when they heard these words, the disciples of John were comforted while the Pharisees themselves were the more confounded.
mercy.urantia.org...

And then said Jesus: "But you will stumble over my teaching because you are wont to interpret my message literally; you are slow to discern the spirit of my teaching. Again must you remember that you are my messengers; you are beholden to live your lives as I have in spirit lived mine. You are my personal representatives; but do not err in expecting all men to live as you do in every particular. Also must you remember that I have sheep not of this flock, and that I am beholden to them also, to the end that I must provide for them the pattern of doing the will of God while living the life of the mortal nature."

Then asked Nathaniel: "Master, shall we give no place to justice? The law of Moses says, `An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' What shall we say?" And Jesus answered: "You shall return good for evil. My messengers must not strive with men, but be gentle toward all. Measure for measure shall not be your rule. The rulers of men may have such laws, but not so in the kingdom; mercy always shall determine your judgments and love your conduct. And if these are hard sayings, you can even now turn back. If you find the requirements of apostleship too hard, you may return to the less rigorous pathway of discipleship."

On hearing these startling words, the apostles drew apart by themselves for a while, but they soon returned, and Peter said: "Master, we would go on with you; not one of us would turn back. We are fully prepared to pay the extra price; we will drink the cup. We would be apostles, not merely disciples."

When Jesus heard this, he said: "Be willing, then, to take up your responsibilities and follow me. Do your good deeds in secret; when you give alms, let not the left hand know what the right hand does. And when you pray, go apart by yourselves and use not vain repetitions and meaningless phrases. Always remember that the Father knows what you need even before you ask him. And be not given to fasting with a sad countenance to be seen by men. As my chosen apostles, now set apart for the service of the kingdom, lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, but by your unselfish service lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, for where your treasures are, there will your hearts be also.

"The lamp of the body is the eye; if, therefore, your eye is generous, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is selfish, the whole body will be filled with darkness. If the very light which is in you is turned to darkness, how great is that darkness!"
mercy.urantia.org...

Jesus passed on through Jerusalem, only pausing to look upon the temple and the gathering throngs of visitors. He had a strange and increasing aversion to this Herod-built temple with its politically appointed priesthood. He wanted most of all to see Lazarus, Martha, and Mary. Lazarus was the same age as Jesus and now head of the house; by the time of this visit Lazarus's mother had also been laid to rest. Martha was a little over one year older than Jesus, while Mary was two years younger. And Jesus was the idolized ideal of all three of them.

On this visit occurred one of those periodic outbreaks of rebellion against tradition�the expression of resentment for those ceremonial practices which Jesus deemed misrepresentative of his Father in heaven. Not knowing Jesus was coming, Lazarus had arranged to celebrate the Passover with friends in an adjoining village down the Jericho road. Jesus now proposed that they celebrate the feast where they were, at Lazarus's house. "But," said Lazarus, "we have no paschal lamb." And then Jesus entered upon a prolonged and convincing dissertation to the effect that the Father in heaven was not truly concerned with such childlike and meaningless rituals. After solemn and fervent prayer they rose, and Jesus said: "Let the childlike and darkened minds of my people serve their God as Moses directed; it is better that they do, but let us who have seen the light of life no longer approach our Father by the darkness of death. Let us be free in the knowledge of the truth of our Father's eternal love."

That evening about twilight these four sat down and partook of the first Passover feast ever to be celebrated by devout Jews without the paschal lamb. The unleavened bread and the wine had been made ready for this Passover, and these emblems, which Jesus termed "the bread of life" and "the water of life," he served to his companions, and they ate in solemn conformity with the teachings just imparted. It was his custom to engage in this sacramental ritual whenever he paid subsequent visits to Bethany. When he returned home, he told all this to his mother. She was shocked at first but came gradually to see his viewpoint; nevertheless, she was greatly relieved when Jesus assured her that he did not intend to introduce this new idea of the Passover in their family. At home with the children he continued, year by year, to eat the Passover "according to the law of Moses."

It was during this year that Mary had a long talk with Jesus about marriage. She frankly asked him if he would get married if he were free from his family responsibilities. Jesus explained to her that, since immediate duty forbade his marriage, he had given the subject little thought. He expressed himself as doubting that he would ever enter the marriage state; he said that all such things must await "my hour," the time when "my Father's work must begin." Having settled already in his mind that he was not to become the father of children in the flesh, he gave very little thought to the subject of human marriage.
mercy.urantia.org...

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Wow I never knew that Homosexuality was a Religion?!!!

I guess that this cannon was being fired over my bow, right?
The reason that I included this in my list is that for one, at the time I was typing it, I really was not thinking of whether or not anything in the list was a Religion, simply to what extent they hated Christianity. I also listed a few Religions in there to prove the point that if anyone was picked on like the Christians where, there would be hell to pay.

Since you brought it up, though; the Homosexual lobby has been one of the most active groups around in discrediting and going to court against Christians. They have gone so far as to have any church that teaches fundamental doctrine�s such as it being a sin to be in a same sex relationship, as hate groups.

Down here in Florida, there is a pastor that has gotten the funding from private individuals to buy an hour on TV every night to have a prayer show. He does not ask for money from anyone during the show and has managed to get by like that for over a year now. He counsels some ex-homosexual people, and has stated that through them he found out that the homosexual lobby group had been sniffing around to try and find out who his sponsors where, so that they could picket them and force them to stop their funding through embarrassment. That is the kind of hated, and dirty pool I am talking about.


edit spelling

[edit on 9/28/2004 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
Down here in Florida, there is a pastor that...counsels some ex-homosexual people, and has stated that through them he found out that the homosexual lobby group had been sniffing around to try and find out who his sponsors where, so that they could picket them and force them to stop their funding through embarrassment. That is the kind of hated, and dirty pool I am talking about.

Anyone who believes that the Homosexual agenda is all about equal protection has big surprise in store. The Homosexual agenda is to destroy the very moral foundation of this nation, principle by principle. The very perfect example is their relentless assault on the Boy Scouts of America.

[edit on 04/9/28 by GradyPhilpott]

I am almost afraid to ask, but what is their beef with the boy scouts?

The sleeping arrangements on the camping trips?

Quote: "IT SHOWS A CLEAR DEVELOPMENT OF A HEBREW TEXT OF THE TORAH WHICH ONLY BECAME SET IN STONE WITHOUT CHANGES ("OFFICIAL") NEARLY A THOUASAND YEARS LATER !!"

&

"revealing that there were several competing texts of the OT around before Hillel II supressed them for Judaiesm in AD 90---60 years AFTER the time of "Iesous"...!"

Ah, Amadeus - in that case - do you Really Believe that Jesus Committed Blasphemy like the Pharisees said he did? Or were they just trying to Wack their Political & Theological Competition? As far as I can see - Jesus never called himself the "Messiah" or the "Son of God" or the "King of Israel" - quite the contrary -> "My Kingdom is NOT of this World"!!!

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Ah, Amadeus - in that case - do you Really Believe that Jesus Committed Blasphemy like the Pharisees said he did? Or were they just trying to Wack their Political & Theological Competition? As far as I can see - Jesus never called himself the "Messiah" or the "Son of God" or the "King of Israel" - quite the contrary -> "My Kingdom is NOT of this World"!!!

I agree with this.

There where two major parties with a vested interest in the life of Christ. One that wanted it supported, and one that wanted it crushed. Is it really that surprising that there are two versions of this book in the modern days.

Maybe a thousand years from now, Democrats and Republicans, can use the slander and writing of this election campaign to prove that either Bush or Kerry did not in fact exist�

From Seraphim Serpente:

AMADEUS: QUOTE: "IT SHOWS A CLEAR DEVELOPMENT OF A HEBREW TEXT OF THE TORAH WHICH ONLY BECAME SET IN STONE WITHOUT CHANGES ("OFFICIAL") NEARLY A THOUASAND YEARS LATER !!" & "revealing that there were several competing texts of the OT around before Hillel II supressed them for Judaiesm in AD 90---60 years AFTER the time of "Iesous"...!" AMADEUS UNQUOTE

SERPAHIM QUOTE: Ah, Amadeus - in that case - do you Really Believe that Jesus Committed Blasphemy like the Pharisees said he did? Or were they just trying to Wack their Political & Theological Competition? As far as I can see - Jesus never called himself the "Messiah" or the "Son of God" or the "King of Israel" - quite the contrary -> "My Kingdom is NOT of this World"!!! SERAPHIM UNQUOTE

Hi Seraphim: Your post brings up some rather complex issues about the nature of the Ministry of �Iesous� which was portrayed differently by different groups---for their own theological and political agendas�

But first a quick word about �Iesous and Blasphemy��

The post-Exilic understanding of the socalled Mosaic law of �Blasphemy against HA SHEM� (especially as it relates to physically pronouncing the name YHWH--- or, even worse, using it in magic rituals) was something we notice hovering in the background to some of the Greek Gospel �Passion Narratives�---i.e. with all that stuff about the Tearing of the High Priests Vestments after hearing particularly pointed speech placed into the mouth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean immediately after the Arrest on the Hill:

�and Joseph Kaiphah said, Are you the Messiah the Son of the Blessed One? And Iesous answered saying, Yehei Esher Yehei (Greek EGO EIMI), in other words I AM WHO I AM, i.e. he allegedly spoke outloud the Tetra-Grammaton (YHWH, the �4 letters�) or HaShem, �the Name� of the clan god of Israel to the reigning high priest in the 2nd Temple

In the post Exilic period (i.e. after 430 BC) , it was after all ONLY the High Priest himself, the Ha Cohen-HaGadol who could ever pronounce the Name YHWH and only Once a Year on Yom Kippur in the Debir (Holy of Holies) Golden CubeRoom----which according to Mark, resulted in the high priest tearing his costly vestments (something Iesous must have relished watching, if the story was not just made up for theological reasons!) and screaming, �What Further Witnesses do we need? We have heard the BLASPHEMY from his own lips!�

A similar use of YHWH allegedly being spoken by Iesous� (illegally) outloud seems to be behind the Gospel of John�s Temple Police on the Hill Incident during the Arrest (And they said, We Seek Iesous Nazarenus and he said to them, �I AM he�. And they fell back on their faces�.) i.e. they heard haShem, the Divine Name being pronounced, and had to avert their faces from the shock�. The scene is repeated in John twice when I AM is apparently re-pronounced (�I have already told you I AM�.�).

We also have all those mysterious I AM sayings in the 4th Gospel (I AM the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE�I AM THE DOOR OF THE SHEEP�I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD�etc.) which may indicate that even his teaching contained some kernels of the Tetragrammaton even being pronounced outloud on certain occasions�.unless John merely wants to make his Gospel say as much for his own theological reasons�which were many by the way.

But whether R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean �historically� (actually) �physically� spoke HaShem(YHWH) will never be really known, but it certainly seems to be implied in the Gospels where imbedded into an early tradition (and the Passion Narratives are the oldest Core of the Gospel material) that seems to suggest that some form of it was spoken by him whether in his esoteric secret teaching to his inner core of disciples or in his more public �confrontations� with the ruling Sons of Zadok (Sadducees)�and we assume the later Christians would hardly have made something as Hallakhikally nuanced up our of thin air, since after all, later Greek speaking Christians knew less and less about Judaiesm (and the nuances of Zadokite hallakhah) as time went on, we can assume that this was an earlier rather than a later tradition (in other words, the later the gospel material, the less Judaeism inherent in the text)�

Of course there is a Dead Sea Scroll-Apocalyptic/Messianic connexion between the Tetragrammaton and the Name of the Messiah e.g. (�And I shall PLACE MY NAME IN HIM�� Y + H + SH = W + H � e.g. Yehoshua, with a SHIN in the middle of YHWH), so perhaps the Inner Circle of the first Messianic Nazorean Christians who followed �Iesous� and later �James the Just� were more �proto-Kaballistically oriented� (like the Dead Sea Scroll Community, who certainly were) than later Greek Speaking Goyim-Gentile Pauline churches who cared more about pagan Saviour gods and drinking their blood/eating their flesh as a means to Salvation.


As for the Physical, as opposed to Spiritua,l Kingdom of the Daviddic Dynasty and the Poltiical Daviddic Kingdom hoped for in Israel (to overthrow the Kittim, i.e. the Romans), there are some very strong hints that R. Yehoshua�s circle clearly saw a physical/political Kingdom �on earth� IN TANDEM with a Spiritual Kingdom �in heaven�: two halves of the same coin. The Physical Kingdom Hope was Dashed to pieces during the Jewish War, and so the Post War Gospels came up with some softer language, naturally to convey this idea:

�THY KINGDOM COME ON EARTH AS IT IS IN THE HEAVENS�� is after all part of the so-called Lord�s Prayer put into the mouth of �Iesous� not only in Q (Matthew and Luke�s overlapping sayings) but also in the Gospel of Thomas---which suggests it formed an early part of the tradition.

But also notice the following �warlike� material which echoes the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1 QM, or Milkhama) THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING, NOW ARE THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD, THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED�REPENT NOW AND BELIEVE THE GOOD NEWS�.

All of these pronouncements placed into the mouth of �Iesous� suggest that he was physically active in re=instating the Davvids (politically) which he, in the end, resorted to the use of arms (he after all, armed his disciples with REAL SWORDS and a REAL EAR OF A REAL SLAVE OF THE HIGH PRIEST�S GUARD WAS REALLY CUT OFF�) in other words, people who claim that �his kingdom was not of this world� are only seeing �half of the picture�: post Exilic Apocalyptic Jews (e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll people) believed that the Physical Kingdom of David and Aaron would appear on EARTH AS IT EXISTS ALREADY IN HEAVEN (sort of like the Greek Platonic idea of Forms�and the Dead Sea Scroll Community seems to have been influenced by Pythagorean thought and some Greek texts as well, to judge from their collection of Plato�s dialogues found in one of the higher numbered Qumran rock caves)

DON�T FORGET--- the 4 canonical Gospels circulated in Greek throughout the Roman Empire AFTER the Failed Jewish War against Rome (in AD 70) which Jews and Nazorean Messianic Christians (i.e. the family of �Jeezzzuzz� headed up by James the Just) in Judaea lost., effectively destroying their organization and allowing the Pauline churches evolutionary �free hand� in matters doctrinal.

THEREFORE: any OVERT references to �Physical Kingdoms/Daviddic Messiahs� who lead armed revolts on hills with swords to re-instate a Daviddic kingdom were not talked about much in the post AD 70 tradition (and would have been a near-impossible Selling Point) AFTER the war against Rome in AD 72 was finally lost and Israel was effectively destroyed (despite the fact that some of the early warrior Messiah tradition still was included in a few stray texts like Luke 22:36. [and Iesous said] "LET HE WHO DOES NOT POSSESS HIS OWN SWORD, GO OUT IMMEDIATELY, SELL HIS OUTER TUNIC AND BUY ONE NOW" =) , and most of these originally warlike references were excised from the tradition (you cannot tout a warrior messiah after the warrior Messiah group loses a major war).

But we see hints that something like an armed Insurrection was brewing (Luke chapter 24: Road to Emaeus Pericope: �and we thought he was going to be the One who would Redeem Israel from its enemies���and Barabbas was arrested for Sedition during the recent Insurrection��

Mark�s gospel for example, uses a technique called the MESSIANIC SECRET where �Iesous� tells people (and daemons) to be silent or quiet about his true identity (�and the daemons said, You are the Holy One of God�and Iesous �ordered� them to hold their peace�and tell no Man who he was..�)

The Messianic Secret suggests some strong political reasons why the early traditions like Mark seem to represent the activities of Iesous at time as being highly secretive (e.g. �Where shall we eat the Pesach..and he said, go to the gate of Jerusalem, and you shall find a man carrying a water jar�� ) and these coded messages suggest covert political activity�at the very least�.

Does any of this make any sense to you at all?

Quote: "especially as it relates to physically pronouncing the name YHWH--- or, even worse, using it in
***Magic Rituals***"

&

"Of course there is a Dead Sea Scroll-Apocalyptic/Messianic connexion between the Tetragrammaton and the Name of the Messiah e.g. (�And I shall PLACE MY NAME IN HIM�� Y + H + SH = W + H � e.g. Yehoshua, with a SHIN in the middle of YHWH), so perhaps the Inner Circle of the first Messianic Nazorean Christians who followed �Iesous� and later �James the Just� were more �proto-Kaballistically oriented� (like the Dead Sea Scroll Community, who certainly were) than later Greek Speaking Goyim-Gentile Pauline churches who cared more about Pagan Saviour Gods (= "CHRISTOS" & "SOPHIA") and Drinking their Blood/Eating their Flesh as a means to Salvation."

Fascinating - again Great Job! Yes I understand - I have been studying the Quabalah for a while now:

-> YHVH -> YHshVH -> "YeHshUHa" = "Joshua" (English) = "Iesous" (Greek)
= "Jesus" (Greek into English)

Check out my last 2 posts at the end of this Thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Cassie : I've recently throwed my old Bible away, because I finally understood that the ancient testimony was in fact a sort of collage of ritualism-mysticism-superstition and pseudo-prophetic-philology. Really.



[edit on 5-10-2004 by Nans DESMICHELS]

Yes and that translation is kept the same word for word from the Hebrew and Greek

Are you trying to say that the KJV is the original translation??

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
Yes and that translation is kept the same word for word from the Hebrew and Greek. Don't you think God knows how many versions of the bible their are. And being all knowing and all powerful don't you think that He is able to keep the truth together. The word of God is powerful unto salvation. The word of God is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

ugh

I hear thumping.

Originally posted by NuTroll
what was this poison that was put in the waters? it was dust. dust from the temple floor.
the bitter water starts off as holy water in an earthen vessel. it becomes bitter when the dust, and preists hand are dipped in it.

so unless dust from the temple floor was poisonous...

I don't feel like muddling thru the thing to find it - but I suppose since you posted it that you know what the source is for your statement?

Misfit

Oh dear a "thinker"..
Religion is about blindly accepting dogma. So stop that "thinking" stuff NOW!!

Religion was the TV of the old times telling people what t do, think, eat sleep etc. Now we have Religion AND TV!!

YAAY! \o/

(please note the sarcasm in this post)

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Anyone who believes that the Homosexual agenda is all about equal protection has big surprise in store. The Homosexual agenda is to destroy the very moral foundation of this nation, principle by principle.

[edit on 04/9/28 by GradyPhilpott]

Those "moral foundations" being murder the natives then kill the poor and just generally be a facist?

Go back to the stone age where your ideology comes from. Please?