PENNSYLVANIA LAW: Forces Doctors to HIDE what makes some of their patients sick!

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

Braindeadconservative

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

I have previously reported that the fracking recipe is shared with government agencies for the purposes of controlling what is being used. You obviously are not happy with this and feel that just any private citizen must have the entire recipe in order to do "something" with it.

So you are saying that the people who vastly outnumber the government, the corporations and their
employees engaging in the practice have no right to know what they are being exposed to???
I mean that is the most insane fascist argument I can imagine... If a company was pumping
arsenic into your water supply would you have the right to know???

By your reasoning - coke cola must also publish their recipe, KFC must publish their recipe, anyone who manufactures any product that may be consumed or may end up in the environment must publish their recipe and there is no competition between companies as just anyone may steal a desired recipe and use it.

I already know the base components in Coca Cola. A recipe and a list of ingredients is NOT the same thing,
that is where your entire argument dies and become illogical.

COCA COLA

Carbonated water
Sugar (sucrose or high-fructose corn syrup depending on country of origin)
Caffeine
Phosphoric acid
Caramel color (E150d)
Natural flavorings[34]

Is Coke in danger now?????????????

You certainly deserve to have every company move out of United States to a country where they can protect their proprietary information, developed as a result of some very expensive research and not have to give it out for free to whoever cares to use it.

we are talking about chemicals that make their way into the municiple ground water, you know
water the thing that all life depends upon.

I really think something is wrong with your moral compass


The composition of fracking fluid is generally known - as previously pointed out by another poster and is generally available on the internet. But apparently, this also is insufficient for your purposes.

Your argument is dead, where is your new one?

Carbonated water
Sugar (sucrose or high-fructose corn syrup depending on country of origin)
Caffeine
Phosphoric acid
Caramel color (E150d)
Natural flavorings[34]

You have no respect for constititional rights - you believe that your right to know supercedes even the constitution. Therefore, it is logical to assume that the constitution means nothing to you and that you are willing to give up all of your rights under the law.

So you are saying that the constitution grants fictitious entities the right to poison ground
water?

Good luck with that and BTW - I will oppose you in this venture to destroy constitutional rights for the simple reason that you have yet to tell me exactly why you need the entire recipe.

Find a new argument, yours is illogical

Carbonated water
Sugar (sucrose or high-fructose corn syrup depending on country of origin)
Caffeine
Phosphoric acid
Caramel color (E150d)
Natural flavorings[34]

reply to post by Thurisaz

Originally posted by Thurisaz
reply to post by loam

 

wtf is fracking fluid? What do they use it for?

never heard of this at all.

Please see this other thread of mine from awhile back: The Conspiracy Before Your Nose: A Fracking Disaster in the Making!

You can also search this site or google. Lots of material out there.

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
What advantage does having the exact recipe give you that you are willing to give up your right to privacy?

In the case of my personal injury, MY HEALTH.

Your positions are so wrongheaded, there appears to be no hope in getting you to see how.

You keep asserting this is some great intrusion into your privacy, but seem to gloss over the narrow instance that applies to this topic. PERSONAL INJURY.

It's really not that complicated. No one is arguing (at least I'm not) that there should be indiscriminate and widespread disclosure of trade secrets. That isn't this issue in play here. But you keep acting like it is.

Pointless.

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
You have no respect for constititional rights - you believe that your right to know supercedes even the constitution. Therefore, it is logical to assume that the constitution means nothing to you and that you are willing to give up all of your rights under the law.

Good luck with that and BTW - I will oppose you in this venture to destroy constitutional rights for the simple reason that you have yet to tell me exactly why you need the entire recipe.

You do realize that there is NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO PRIVACY FOR CORPORATIONS in this country?

Federal Communications Commission v. AT&T, Inc.

Of course not.

If you disagree, mind showing WHERE in the US Constitution it says this?

BTW - to all those people who are insisting that they have the right to know what they are exposed to?

Unless you work in a fracking facility, you WILL NOT be exposed to the original fracking fluid. What you may be exposed to (and so say all of you) is the groundwater contaminated by the byproducts of the use of fracking fluid.

So what is to stop ANY of you from submitting samples of the ground water for laboratory analysis to find out exactly what you are exposed to?

Again - please explain - why do you need to know the recipe of the original fracking fluid recipe?

Under the law - in the United States and in Canada - corporations are persons and have the same right to privacy. Further, I would imagine that the fracking fluid recipe is patented.

Tired of Control Freaks

To

My arguement in regards to coke cola DOES NOT FAIL. Like fracking fluid recipes, which are available on the internet, you can read the general ingredients on the side of every can. But you still do not know the exact recipe (ie how much of each ingredient and how it is made). You don't the exact recipe for any food product and yet you knowingly put it in your mouth and expose yourself to it without knowing the exact recipe.

So I don't understand why it is so all fired important to know the exact recipe for fracking fluid when the only thing you are likely to be exposed to is groundwater or soil contaminated with fracking fluid but not resembling the original at all because of chemical reactions that would occur in water and in soil.

Why is it not good enough to generally know the ingredients of fracking fluid without having to know the exact recipe?

Tired of Control

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
Unless you work in a fracking facility, you WILL NOT be exposed to the original fracking fluid. What you may be exposed to (and so say all of you) is the groundwater contaminated by the byproducts of the use of fracking fluid.

BLATANTLY WRONG AGAIN!

I no longer believe you are an honest broker here to rationally discuss these issues.

Pennsylvania Fracking Spill: Natural Gas Well Blowout Spills Thousands Of Gallons Of Drilling Fluid

Thousands of gallons of fracking fluid have spilled following an accident at a natural gas well in Pennsylvania, WNEP reports.

The Chesapeake Energy well in Bradford County lost control late Tuesday night.

The well blew near the surface, spilling thousands and thousands of gallons of frack fluid over containment walls, through fields, personal property and farms, even where cattle continue to graze.

Or...

Fra cking Fluid Spill in Tioga County, PA – DEP Investigating, Talisman Shuts Down Operations for Eight Days

Or...

A crash between two tractor-trailers: Fracking fluid spills on Pa. road, runs into nearby creek

I could provide HUNDREDS of examples. But these three (found in 30 seconds) show you are COMPLETELY WRONG.

Google is your friend.

Use it!

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
Again - please explain - why do you need to know the recipe of the original fracking fluid recipe?

This has been plainly explained to you so many times, it is clear you are not interested in any answer that contradicts your position.

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
Under the law - in the United States and in Canada - corporations are persons and have the same right to privacy.

WRONG again! I don't know about Canada, but I just cited you the most recent US Supreme Court case that says otherwise in my previous post.

Your posts are either:



or



Either way, they constitute complete dribble, misinformation, and faulty logic.

Good luck with that!

You might be able to fool some people. But I doubt many.

The concept that corporations are people is not really applicable here. The trade secret can still be protected once exposed through the same means that any other Intellectual Property is. Patents, copyrights, etc.. Its a non issue here.

In some certain situations Corps. have rights similar to a person but they are not people. People are not too big to fail... apparently some people(corps) are though?

Any one who has not read the entire law needs to. The issues are about exposure of trade secrets to the public. Traditionally industrial chemicals have to be declared to the state. This law attempts to change that and allow trade secrets in Frack drilling to be exempt from that listing. In certain situations they are required to disclose this trade secret to different groups of people. Medical professionals are among this list. They are also required to sign a NDA to get the information. If it is an emergency they can request the trade secret info over the phone but must give a verbal agreement to the NDA followed by a written agreement asap.

Now is it implied that the Dr. can inform the patient through the course of the medical diagnosis/treatment?
Can Dr. disclose the trade secret in its entirety or just the related parts?
Would the Dr. be protected by any type of whistle blower law?
Can we find out the terms of the NDA? That might help clear up some things.

This is the meat and potatoes of whats going on.
Definitely some shady stuff.... but how shady?

sb

On a side note...
I don't drink the water anymore.....I hear it has Fracking fluid in it! lol

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
Under the law....in Canada - corporations are persons and have the same right to privacy.

Just because I was curious, I looked up your Canada part too!

WRONG AGAIN.

Canadian Privacy Law Blog

The United States Supreme Court has just ruled today that the personal privacy exemptions in the US Freedom of Information Act do not protect information about corporations. In short, corporations do not have a personal privacy right.

This is consistent with the Canadian approach.

If you disagree with this, cite the Canadian law, rule or holding that states otherwise.

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
reply to post by loam

 

ok lets tone the rhetoric down just a little bit.

Obviously, the "recipe" for the fracking fluid is proprietary information. This is information, that if it were to be made public, would put the company at an economic disadvantage.

Just as obviously, if a person suspects this symptoms may be related to fracking fluid, a doctor would need to know the exact "recipe" to properly diagnose the patient.

What this law does is order the company to release the recipe to a doctor upon request but places the doctor responsible for not revealing the exact recipe.

There is NOTHING that stops the doctor from telling a patient that he has symptoms that appear to be related to exposure to fracking fluid and recommending treatment options. (or from telling the patient that his symptoms cannot be possibly caused by the fracking fluid used by a local company).

We really don't need the melodrama here.

Its like a doctor acquiring the recipe for fig newtons to be able to diagnose a patient who claims to be allergic to flour. The doctor needs to confirm that the company uses flour in the recipe but the patient has not need to know what the exact recipe is.

Tired of Control Freaks

Hi tocf
I would like to see if you can explain why anybody should have to be treated!!!
Do you know anything about frickin "Frackin"??

reply to post by safetyblack


Welcome to the table.

reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks

You have a lot of nerve to state such an opinion. Not only does the patient have a right to know the exact chemicals involved in threatening his health, but also society has the right to know when these "flagged" chemicals are used within the environment. "Chemical recipes" in products used in commercial applications are protected by Patents. Although it's apparent you think private interests outweigh Public Health concerns, I'm here to tell you that past court decisions state otherwise. Whether there is risks associated with radiation of cell phones or chemicals that breach the safety of the Environment, everyone has a vested interest in these "recipes". It's obvious that the Law in question is a ruse to derail possible litigation and deny compensation to victims, rather than safeguarding private "proprietary" interests.

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
BTW - to all those people who are insisting that they have the right to know what they are exposed to?

Unless you work in a fracking facility, you WILL NOT be exposed to the original fracking fluid. What you may be exposed to (and so say all of you) is the groundwater contaminated by the byproducts of the use of fracking fluid.

Yes and kidneys and livers of humans cannot process fracking fluid and liquid fossil fuel
components. Which is exactly why this is an issue.

So what is to stop ANY of you from submitting samples of the ground water for laboratory analysis to find out exactly what you are exposed to?

why should we have to?

Did we go ahead and pollute the water table? That should be the burden of the people
who are placing it into the environment.

Again - please explain - why do you need to know the recipe of the original fracking fluid recipe?

So that the public can determine wether or not the toxic effects are worth sanctioning in any
given community.

Under the law - in the United States and in Canada - corporations are persons and have the same right to privacy. Further, I would imagine that the fracking fluid recipe is patented.

Tired of Control Freaks

Not when they are placing their contaminates into the water table, that should be something the
public can chime in upon due to the risk and impact of such practices.

Why are you defending this so bitterly? it had go to be the most asinine corporate defense
possible.

Originally posted by loam

For Pennsylvania's Doctors, a Gag Order on Fracking Chemicals

Under a new law, doctors in Pennsylvania can access information about chemicals used in natural gas extraction -- but they won't be able to share it with their patients...

...

The...law states that companies must disclose the identity and amount of any chemicals used in fracking fluids to any health professional that requests that information in order to diagnosis or treat a patient that may have been exposed to a hazardous chemical. But the provision in the new bill requires those health professionals to sign a confidentiality agreement stating that they will not disclose that information to anyone else -- not even the person they're trying to treat.

What a dysfunctional nation we have become! :shk:

It appears we are so far down the rabbit hole, it's hard to see how we will ever make our way out.

See also: The Conspiracy Before Your Nose: A Fracking Disaster in the Making!

edit on 27-3-2012 by loam because: (no reason given)

Another intolerable example of Profit over People.

reply to post by OrganicAnagram33

After years in political chat rooms, I can smell a troll a mile away. Mr. "TiredofControlFreaks" reeks of the extreme-right mentality. I've heard it all before and i know how they think. They tend to thrive in Fascist regimes and have no passion for the victims of the Govt. and Industry partnerships. I suspect that closer examination of Mr.TiredofControlFreaks would disclose a rabid neocon who is known for rants involving the elimination of "mandatory regulations" in commerce. It's obvious the Pennsylvania Law is a offshoot from that mantra. In other words: "To hell with the masses, our efforts are more important than their considerations!". Sadly we see it all to often in America and Mr. TiredofControlFreaks offers no solutions for he is part of the problem.

reply to post by loam


Dear Loam

In this spill - did the fracking fluid come into contact with soil, air and water. Was there a chemical reaction with the fracking fluid and the air, soil and water that slightly changed the fracking fluid? Could a sample of the spilled fluid be picked up off the ground and analyzed by a laboratory? Could the air surrounding the fracking fluid be tested.

Is it more helpful to know the recipe for fracking fluid or is it more helpful to take a sample of exactly what you are exposed to?

Again - tell me why you need the original fracking fluid recipe?

Tired of Control Freaks

reply to post by braindeadconservatives


braindeadconservative

Would you be happy with the results of a sample taken by the company and analyzed and paid for the company OR would you demand that a government agency take the sample and have it analyzed in a private laboratory?

Remember when its the company's nickel - there may be opportunity to influence the sample analysis results.

Tired of Control Freaks

To all

I am NOT a troll. I keep asking over and over and over why anyone one of you needs to know the original fracking fluid recipe. Not one of you can answer.

In the event of a spill - the spilled material is NOT the original fracking fluid. It has been changed by chemical reactions with soil, air and water.
The spilled material is available to be sampled and analyzed so that everyone may know what they have been exposed to
In an emergency - a doctor may request to know the original fracking fluid recipe in order to diagnose and help devise medical treatment options.

The recipe for fracking fluid is generally known. The only thing that is NOT known is the exact recipe of any particular company. Because it is proprietary information. Please see the link for a definition of proprietary information

www.lib.utexas.edu...

Companies are persons under the law. Persons have rights - including the right to intellectual property (like the exact recipe for a particular type of fracking fluid) that was developed after some expensive research and development. Persons have the right to protect their intellectual property.

If you deny a certain class of persons the right to their own intellectual property, then it won't be too long before the government finds a way to take away the intellectual property of ALL persons.

Then we, the people would have lost our right to privacy and intellectual property for the very very dubious benefit of knowing the exact ingredients of one particular fracking fluid.

NO - I don't think its worth it.

If you are exposed to spilled fracking fluid - sample the spilled material. This will be the most accurate information available about what you are exposed to.

If you are concerned about the use of fracking fluid in the general environment, do an internet search and base your arguments on knowing the general composition of fracking fluid.

If you are exposed to original fracking fluid (you fell in a tank somewhere) - your doctor can obtain the required information from the company but not disclose the exact recipe to someone who doesn't need to know (but can still discuss it with you in a general fashion)

So exactly what situation do you envision where satisfying your curiousity is more important than privacy rights?

Tired of Control Freaks

First of all, let's list some of the chemicals known to be used in the fracking methodology.

meic.org...

Several toxic chemicals in the fracking fluid process have been found by the Environmental Protection Agency to exceed their regulatory standards for acceptable concentrations in drinking water. A small selection of the chemicals utilized in the fracking process include:  Diesel fuel, which contains benzene, ethyl benzene, toluene, xylene, naphthalene. Benzene causes cancer and contaminates water sources in very small quantities.  Methanol, a highly toxic substance to humans, which can cause blindness, unconsciousness, and death.  Hydrochloric acid, which has toxic effects on human tissue and the potential to damage respiratory organs, eyes, skin, and intestines. Public

In addition, note the following:

Although the drilling companies attempt to extract the fracking fluid following drilling, the EPA estimates that 20% to 40% of fluids remain in the aquifer. Once on the surface, the chemicals are often stored in unlined pits, where the potential for contamination is greatest.

ibid
Finally:

The very serious concerns associated with fracking fluids contaminating groundwater sources have compelled several states to require public disclosure of the chemicals used in the process. The Wyoming Oil and Gas Commission recently approved rules that require industry disclosure of fluids to protect public safety over arguments for corporate secrecy or trade secrets.

Recently the United States Department of the Interior announced that it would consider federal regulations requiring disclosure of fracking fluids at well sites. The EPA is currently conducting a study analyzing the potential for fracking fluids to contaminate aquifers and groundwater resources, which will be published in 2012.

yosemite.epa.gov...!OpenDocument

EPA Announces Final Study Plan to Assess Hydraulic Fracturing/Congressionally directed study will evaluate potential impacts on drinking water

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) today announced its final research plan on hydraulic fracturing. At the request of Congress, EPA is working to better understand potential impacts of hydraulic fracturing on drinking water resources. Natural gas plays a key role in our nation’s clean energy future and the Obama Administration is committed to ensuring that we continue to leverage this vital resource responsibly.

In March 2010, EPA announced its intention to conduct the study in response to a request from Congress. Since then, the agency has held a series of public meetings across the nation to receive input from states, industry, environmental and public health groups, and individual citizens. In addition, the study was reviewed by the Science Advisory Board (SAB), an independent panel of scientists, to ensure the agency conducted the research using a scientifically sound approach.

The initial research results and study findings will be released to the public in 2012. The final report will be delivered in 2014. To ensure that the study is complete and results are available to the public in a timely manner, EPA initiated some activities this summer that were supported by the SAB and provide a foundation for the full study.

Let's hope that the final study results in the EPA issuance of a mandatory reporting directive.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


ProfEmeritus

And I would absolutely support a regulatory scheme of some nature to control the use of fracking fluid and protect the environment. The EPA knows the propriety formulas and isn't releasing it either. They can't because of privacy laws.

But that does NOT prevent them from regulating fracking and requiring the Company to sample the environment and report the results.

There is a difference between regulating a practice and breaching civil rights for no earthly good reason whatsoever.

Tired of Control Freaks