President Bush: "Read my sig"

I'm out. Read my signiture. I can't believe it.

So in essence mwm1331, are you saying that as long as your president assures you that whatever is being done is done for the safety of you and your country - you will support any acts perpetrated by him in other parts of the world; however unethical as they may seem?

No.
Not at all
I am sayng I support this particular action.

Originally posted by mwm1331
No.
Not at all
I am sayng I support this particular action.

But your support of this particular action is largely based on a die-hard trust in what your current Administration has told you - is it not? How would you possibly know when and if you were being deceived?

No my support is based on observation and theory. While there are some things I have to take based on information repoted to me by others I neither believe or disbelieve any claim, statement, or informaton without thought. However in order to believe something I have to see some type of proof or evidence. I know for a fact the U.S. government lies. It has to to achieve its functions. However I do trust to the fact that there are 10's of 1000's of ordinary people who have families and beliefs that work in, with, for, and around, the government. Does the gvernment lie to me about things yes. Does that matter when I make a decsion of whether or not I support a particular government policy? Only If I believe everything they say and rely on no outside sources of information. If you thnk the fact that the government lies to you is earthshakng or even particularly sgnifigant you must be fairly young or naive.

Originally posted by mwm1331
If you thnk the fact that the government lies to you is earthshakng or even particularly sgnifigant you must be fairly young or naive.

If you don't think it's particularly significant whether your government lies about an issue as important as this; I would say you must be fairly young or naive.

The nature of a democratic society means the government is required to lie to fufill its oblgatons. Why do you think there is no sngle provision anywhere in either the constitution or bill of rights for "freedom of knowledge"? Did you think the foundng fathers failed to consider that future generations of presidents and senators might lie? They made a provision to ensure the right of the people to speak, worship, investigate, search, think, and yet they were not smart enough to consider that the government might be decietful? Or perhaps even then they knew a fundamental truth of democracy. What the ctizens know everyone knows, and that further what the citizens can learn anyone can learn friend or foe.

So what you're saying here is that you're perfectly ok with fact that your government may be lying to you about a possible hidden, unethical agenda behind attacking another nation; based on the notion that the nature of a democratic society means the government is required to lie to fufill its obligations??

[edit on 24-9-2004 by Durden]

No I'm sayng that the fact the government does lie doesn't bother me. I do not share your belief that the war in Iraq is unethical or unnecessary. I also have never believed that WMD's were the primary reason for Iraq. I do not beleve the government lied about it either. The possibility of Hussein possesing WMD was one legitimate reason for Iraq's liberation. There were many others, some stated impictly some not.

Explain this to me. I ask you the following question:

So what you're saying here is that you're perfectly ok with fact that your government may be lying to you about a possible hidden, unethical agenda behind attacking another nation; based on the notion that the nature of a democratic society means the government is required to lie to fufill its obligations??

..and your answer is:

Originally posted by mwm1331
No

...which is followed by this:

I'm sayng that the fact the government does lie doesn't bother me.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like an obvious contradiction. How can you possibly know you have one but not the other?

And then you say:

I also have never believed that WMD's were the primary reason for Iraq. I do not beleve the government lied about it either.

It seems to me you're simply picking and choosing that which fits your opinion here. You believe your government didn't lie about WMD's, but it wouldn't bother you if they were?

Am I missing something?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Intrepid - Whats NIMBY?

Earthtone - I do feel for the children in Iraq, but feel more for the children in Miami, New York and L.A.

Maybe I am immoral, and maybe I am heartless, but I would rather see American soldiers fighting Iraqi, Iranian, and Saudi terrorists in Iraq than on the streets of america.
I have said many times that the war in Iraq was about a lot more than suspected WMD's and I think that drawing those with a terrorist mindset away from the U.S. was part of it. Am I an asshole for caring more about my friends and famliy than people halfway around the world? Perhaps but thats how I feel.

Whoa. Hold on a minute.
Don't use "concern for New Yorkers" as an excuse for supporting the war in Iraq. NEVER do that.

Once our military is wiped out terrorists will indeed strike the US again.

You Bushies are so preoccupied with covering your own wimpy butts
you lack the ability to THINK AHEAD.

Our military is being destroyed. 5600 retired servicemembers weren't
recalled this summer for nothing.

What do you think is going to happend to NYC when we're attacked again AND THERE ARE NO SOLDIERS ON OUR SHORES TO HELP?















[edit on 24-9-2004 by bushblows]

How many 911 Hijackers came from Iraq?

ZERO

What working relationship did Saddam have with Al-qaeda?

ZERO

How many terrorist camps were in Iraq?

ZERO

What percentage of Predicted WMDs did we find in Iraq?

ZERO

When Bush goes somewhere what follows him?

YES! LOTS OF ZEROS!!!

Yes folks, remember you heard it here first.

You LIKE TERRORISM? Vote for George W. Bush
You DON'T Vote for someone else.
.

Yes durden you are, the point you're missing is that I don't beleve the government is lieing about Iraq. What is so hard to understand?
If you read my post I say what I mean. Your problem is you are assuming both that I am saying more than what I write, and that you know what that is.





[edit on 24-9-2004 by mwm1331]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Yes durden you are, the point you're missing is that I don't beleve the government is lieing about Iraq. What is so hard to understand?

So again, you believe your government didn't lie about WMD's, but it wouldn't bother you if they were? Is this a difficult question? I would say it's an important one, considering that you earlier stated to have no problem with your government lying to you; quite the contrary.

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by dnero6911
All I have to say is don't tick gods people off... he'll get involved...

And who are 'gods people'?

ROFL.

Yes, it does seem that the 'other' team has a god, too.

Or how about Kaizer's army, 'Got is mit us' on the belt buckles of all troops and the napkin rings of the officers' mess. 'Got is mit us' on the belt buckles of the Werhmacht in WW2. "God is with us."

Polish troops salute with two finger - one for country, the other for God. God Bless Poland, the country hasn't been able to win a war in 250 years, despite trying like hell, they have simply suffered destruction from Russia and Germany back and forth for years, but still exist somehow. Polish flag is red and white, white for purity and red for the blood shed for Poland.

Now the guys we're fighting in Iraq, they believe in God too. At this point the soon-to-be martyrs are fighting infidel for God "Allah ackbar" shouted at the firing of every RPG and the death of every jihadi. "God is great." Locals are wrapped up in the holy war too, jihadis are locak heros and kids preparing for battle are said to give off 'sweet smells' because they are so close to Heaven.

God's people, indeed.

Originally posted by Durden
quote] So again, you believe your government didn't lie about WMD's, but it wouldn't bother you if they were? Is this a difficult question? I would say it's an important one, considering that you earlier stated to have no problem with your government lying to you; quite the contrary.

Durden - people who support the war in Iraq aren't concerned about the WMD issue. They are a cowardly, unintelligent lot who foolishly believe they are "safe from terrorists" if insurgents are attacking others abroad. Concern for the greater good isn't a priority; it's all ME, ME, ME.

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by mwm1331
Yes durden you are, the point you're missing is that I don't beleve the government is lieing about Iraq. What is so hard to understand?

So again, you believe your government didn't lie about WMD's, but it wouldn't bother you if they were? Is this a difficult question? I would say it's an important one, considering that you earlier stated to have no problem with your government lying to you; quite the contrary.

No I said I expect the government to lie to the citizens. I never qualified that statement with a given subject.
You asked me whether I felt it was wrong or was bothered by the fact the gvernment lies. Since there are subjects the government is required to lie about I awnsered no.
Whether the government is lieing to me about a given subject, and whether or not I agree that they should in reference to that subject is a different question.
I awnsered the questions asked, its your responsibillty to ask the question you want the awnser to. If you ask a general question you will get an awnser to that question. If you want a more specific awnser then you should ask a more specific question.

Originally posted by mwm1331

No I said I expect the government to lie to the citizens. I never qualified that statement with a given subject.

Come one man, you like being lied to by the guys working for you?

You asked me whether I felt it was wrong or was bothered by the fact the gvernment lies. Since there are subjects the government is required to lie about I awnsered no.

Government doesn't have to lie about anything and is in fact morally and legally obligated not to.

Is lying good for people? No. Is honesty good for friends, family, business, and sociey? Yes. But it's ok for the government to lie?

Originally posted by taibunsuu

Originally posted by mwm1331

No I said I expect the government to lie to the citizens. I never qualified that statement with a given subject.

Come one man, you like being lied to by the guys working for you?

You asked me whether I felt it was wrong or was bothered by the fact the gvernment lies. Since there are subjects the government is required to lie about I awnsered no.

Government doesn't have to lie about anything and is in fact morally and legally obligated not to.

Is lying good for people? No. Is honesty good for friends, family, business, and sociey? Yes. But it's ok for the government to lie?

There are many areas in which the government is required to lie, Inteligence, Military technology, research, development, Crimjinal Investigations. The nature of an open society dictates that there will be many areas in which the government will be required to lie in order to keep secrets from the enemies of the nation.

Originally posted by mwm1331

There are many areas in which the government is required to lie, Inteligence, Military technology, research, development, Crimjinal Investigations. The nature of an open society dictates that there will be many areas in which the government will be required to lie in order to keep secrets from the enemies of the nation.

No, you are confusing non-disclosure with lying.

Being unable to comment on the development of a weapons system is one thing. Telling someone a lie is another.

Nature of an open society dictates that there will be lies?