Kerry - Iraqi PM is a liar

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I can understand that the war and Bush supporters do not wish to believe the democrats, so I can only conclude that those like Affirmative Reaction think the republicans I quote are lying. The stories are not at all gelling between those who claim to have recently been in Iraq, whether they be military or public servant. Perhaps this man is lying or maybe he is a fabrication of someone's imagination:

You obviously don't watch the news or the speeches by public figures, except Kerry obviously.

The cities you named for the most part lie in those three out of 18 provinces that still have trouble.

You can believe whom ever you wish, but don't try to tell me what I have experienced. You haven't a clue in the world. When you get up off your dead rear-end and go there for yourself so that you can speak from experience instead repeating the rhetoric and lies of the left wing loonies like Kerry who have a stake in the FAILURE of our mission, or posting diatribes from supposed soldiers who are there (it has been suggested that this individual does not exist, and I will be making some phone calls on my DSN line tomorrow to see what I can find out!) then perhaps you will have a clue...as of now, you don't....

Au contraire, I not only watch, I listen intently and I read far more data and accountings from all sources than the average person. I take no quotes for granted until researched, and more importantly, I go straight to the point of origin. Not one of my facts or statements can you dispute. Whereas it is my opinion after reading much falsities, that far too many accept as divine, the word of their favourite spin doctor or television station.

For example, you play games with the cities I mention and proffer in a subliminal way, geographical area as a means of dispute. That does not pass the litmus test, for population ratios are undeniable, no matter where they are. The fact is that the majority of the towns we hear about is not by chance, because I doubt very much the coalition forces concern themselves with bedouin tribes or towns of 5,000 people. Yours is a disingenuous argument and is akin to comparing New Yorkers' opinions on Bush with that of Greenfield's citizens, so kindly try to stay focused with analogous references.

For the record, I have not told you, or even suggested what you have experienced, so there is no need to resort to derision, or insult or even supposition about me, especially since I view that mode of defense to be one of capitulation by virtue of not believing in your position. Mine has been of one to provide statements from others, and those others include officials which you as a republican ( I presume) endorse, if you wish to take them to task for disagreeing with you, I am willing to assist you with the information relative to making conatct, but taking out your frustration at the truth on me is something you have to suppress if you wish to argue a point you cannot support.

Well, of course Bush is going to make him appear in front of cameras and LIE to the dumb masses, like we dont know what the bejeesus is going on and we're all blind. right. Sick

seriously when those two get in front of the camera they look like burt and ernie. a couple of cluesless puppets. why can they not admit defeat? how is it possible to liberate a country when 13.5 million of the inhabitants consider you the great satanic plague that has devour the rightousness of earth with over empowering technology. it is not possible. to those of you who sit back and say "well we got rid of a murdering tyrant! blah blah blah" yeah so why didnt we leave after we oblitorated his entire infrastrcuture and forced him to live in a hole within the first month of this fiasco? we have done nothing but caused massive amounts of harm and distress to a previously content society. sure we might fix a thing or two, but only after destroying numurous entire buildings housing insurgance. also, kerry was wrong about the PM he is not a liar, he is a robot.

Bush and the Iraq head of the new occupational government are like that Iraqi information minister who during the war kept reporting that coalition troops were being defeated and on the run, boasting of the Allah's goodnes in bringing glorious victory to Iraqi troops who had the infidel on the run. That informatin minister and Allawi don't look the same, but they speak with the same mind...or is it mindlessly... even saying for the TV cameras in Baghdad that US troops were nowhere near Baghdad, when actually tanks were closing on his position, and he was nervously looking over his shoulder.

Now the lies and nervousness are on the other foot, as Bush is the one who sees through rose-colored glasses, waist deep in a quagmire very much like Vietnam's quagmire, from which there is no escape, thousands of Americans dead and dying, hundreds of thousands at risk suffering horrible traumatic stress that will fill VA rolls for the rest of their lives, terrorists gaining strength and know how to kill Americans and "Iraqi collaboraters more efficiently, and beheadings becojming common," yet Bush and Allawi keep saying all is well. One wonders if they are realy that incompetent, or if it is just more in a long string of lies. "We are winning," he has the audacity to grin, "and have the terrorist on the run." You know, give the guy a break...he hasn't been involved in the dangerous business of war personally, so he maybe made a mistake seeing the terrorists on the run and thought they were retreating, when in all actuality they were charging with scimitars in their teeth to behead America. And the Iraqi Prime Minister, who must have his head in the clouds, or up some other dark place in his posterior, speaking of Iraqi troops and their coalition friends as winning the peace and defeating terrorism.

What newspaper is he reading, the dimwit times?

The sad thing is that many Americans still believe in Bush's swindle, and delight in the chickenhawk lies, engorging themselves on its facetious bullcrap. They steadfastly refute the facts, despite the CIA, the FBI, Bush's own counterterrorism chief, and the senate bipartisan 9/11 hearings that all state emphatically that Saddam and Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with the attacks of 9/11, and no ties at all with Osama Bin Laden and the terrorist arm of Al Qaida, and no WMD's...that Saddam was a world terrorist with evil designs on the world. Malarkey!

Gullible Americans still believe by the thousands that Saddam had Iraq terrorists that were involved in these things. Are we really that insipidly stupid? Are we really that gullibly naive? Then that Iraq information officer was Bush in disguise...because their lines are hauntingly the same pollyanna views, using bullhockey rhetoric that is far fetched from truth.

President Bush says "our strategy is succeeding" and Iraq "is headed
toward democracy." He says "Freedom is on the march." Yeah, sure...and I've got some prime real estate in Florida I'd like to sell you....

But the CIA told Bush recently that the scenarios we're really facing
there range from "an Iraq whose stability would remain tenuous" -- a
quagmire -- to civil war.

When Will We Ever Learn?

I mean, when the hell will we ever learn? When will we learn from our many mistakes in Vietnam? Though war in Iraq may be different, it�s very much the same too�lies getting us mired into both, greed, corporate finagling, politics, rush to judgment, civil war, the US in the middle buffeted by both sides, corruptly inept puppet governments, bloody war atrocities killing thousands of innocent civilians�to save�what? Freedom�balderdash! There is no way that war in Vietnam affected in any way whatsoever the freedom of Americans...and likewise, there is no way victory or defeat in Iraq will in any way make America's streets safer, or protect our country from terrorism, or insure our freedoms.

I am not a pacifist! I believe there are wars where good men must step to the fore to protect us from madmen like Osama Bin Laden. But Vietnam and Iraq have nothing to do with American freedom! They are not wars worth the shdding of one drop of American blood.

A combat infantryman with the 1st Air Cavalry, I had only just returned from a mission teaching love and peace of Christ, when handed a gun and sent into senseless killing fields, to feel first hand wall-to-wall fear of imminent death, hatreds and immorality turning carefully taught value systems upside down.

When will we ever learn? George Bush surely hasn�t. Myopic vision caused his proclaimed war fighting terrorists responsible for the egregious inhumanity of 9/11, to take a drastic sharp turn away from real Afghanistan terrorists, heading our troops to battle for oil-rich Iraq, and a tinhorn dictator who had no WMD�s, no connections with Osama�s Al Qaida network, and no complicity whatsoever with New York/Pentagon atrocities.

Bush has orchestrated the harvest of our sons going nowhere, but to die...again!

Bush did this because Bush doesn�t know war firsthand, having avoided Vietnam like a plague, his father using powerful influence to get him his cushy job with the National Guard champagne unit, protecting Texas skies from Vietcong insurrectionists. Tactical mistakes Bush made in Iraq will cause it to last decades, as did Vietnam, maybe more. Bush may not know how to fight in war, but he sure has perfected how to get us involved in losing one, to the detriment of our sons and daughters very lives, and the ruination of our economy.

Bush slimed Vietnam hero, John Kerry�s reputation, with the same political mudslinging he directed at ex-POW John McCain, and triple amputee, ex-Disabled American Veterans president, Max Cleland, who dared run against him.

Gary

"Vietnam Picture Tour," A walk in "the park" grunts called Vietnam, with the 1st Air Cavalry on combat patrol. Experience chilling reality to leave the sweet and sour taste of "the Nam" pungent on your tongue, the smell of "the Nam" acrid in your nostrils, and textures of "the Nam" imbedded in you as though you walked beside me in combat.
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.
A very apt analogy 1stcavgrunt.

I can still picture the Defense minister of Iraq standing there in his uniform and black beret and saying things were fine as chunks of his country were lost.

Now put Allawi in the same uniform and 'voila' history repeats itself with the shoe on the other foot.

He was Saddam's mouthpiece and now Allawi is Bush's mouthpiece.
.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

...taking out your frustration at the truth on me is something you have to suppress if you wish to argue a point you cannot support.

Correction...your opinion of the truth. Again, you "research", then report what you wish, and ignore the other side of the argument. The Iraqi Prime Minister knows better than you or any of your sources what goes on in his country. You ignore Democrats who shore up his statements, so do not tell me about your "truth". It is again, only your opinion of what the truth is. When you have been there as I have, then you will have some credibility.

The eternal pessimist, Scary Kerry, opens his mouth, inserts foot. The brave PM Allawi comes to the U.S. to give thanks for the support he and his country have been given, for the hope of a free Iraq, and what does the idiot Kerry do?

J. F. Kerry, demoralizer of troops during a time of war,

Kerry should speak more, and his nitwit wife too, each time he opens his mouth, he propels Bush toward another 4 years.

Go John Go!!!!

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Correction...your opinion of the truth. Again, you "research", then report what you wish, and ignore the other side of the argument. The Iraqi Prime Minister knows better than you or any of your sources what goes on in his country. You ignore Democrats who shore up his statements, so do not tell me about your "truth". It is again, only your opinion of what the truth is. When you have been there as I have, then you will have some credibility.

You're right, we should get the opinons of members of the Iraqi government to find out how great things are.

Let's start out by asking Iraqi interim deputy foreign minister, Bassam Qubba.
Oh wait, he's dead. Shot in the stomach in Baghdad. link

Perhaps we should ask Kamal al-Jarrah, a senior official at Iraq's ministry of education?
Oh no, we can't ask him either because he was gunned down too. link

I guess we can hold a seance to talk to Ghazi Talabani, an Iraqi oil official who was shot while being driven to work. link

Would you like to hear from Mussab al-Awadi, the ministry's chief of tribal affairs instead?
Well, you cant because he was shot dead as he left his house in Baghdad. link


It looks like we'll have to take Allawi's word on it then.
We'll have to ask him for an update on the situation next month, assuming he's still alive.
After all, he says he receives death threats every day and four assassination plots against him have been uncovered just this month. link

And the press took up where they left off with Kerry today. One of the questions from a reporter, "John Kerry says you should level with the American people about how tough it is there. How do you respond to presidential candidate John Kerry who says that you need to level with the American people and tell them how tough it is there? I want to know. How do you respond to President Kerry?"


BUSH: My message is that we will stay the course in staying with these people so that they become free. It's in our national interests that we do so. I believe this is a central part in the war on terror. I believe that when we succeed in Iraq, that America will be more secure. I also know that a free Iraq will send a clear message to the part of the world that is desperate for freedom. It's hard work. The American people know that. But I believe it's necessary work. And I believe a leader must be consistent and clear and not change positions when times get tough. And the times have been hard. These are hard times. But I understand what mixed messages do. You can embolden an enemy by sending a mixed message. You can dispirit the Iraqi people by sending mixed messages. You send the wrong messages to our troops by sending mixed messages. That's why I will continue to lead with clarity in a resolute way.

yeah, it is dangerous over there, as it is during war, and also during peace i might add.

oh, above link is from the HONORABLE RUSH LIMBAUGH

Originally posted by AceOfBase


You're right, we should get the opinons of members of the Iraqi government to find out how great things are.

Yep, just like Allawi said�several provinces are still dangerous�.cities in those provinces include Bagdad, Kirkuk and several others. So lets look at what you posted, shall we???

Bassam Qubba � Killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Kamal al-Jarrah � killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Mussab al-Awadi � killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Ghazi Talabani � killed where? Yup�Kirkuk

Allawi receives death threats�where is he positioned? Yup�Bagdad

Thanks for making my point for me�.

When will you people get it? The spin doesn�t work when it�s up against the truth!

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Yep, just like Allawi said�several provinces are still dangerous�.cities in those provinces include Bagdad, Kirkuk and several others. So lets look at what you posted, shall we???

Bassam Qubba � Killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Kamal al-Jarrah � killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Mussab al-Awadi � killed where? Yup�Bagdad�.

Ghazi Talabani � killed where? Yup�Kirkuk

Allawi receives death threats�where is he positioned? Yup�Bagdad

Thanks for making my point for me�.

When will you people get it? The spin doesn�t work when it�s up against the truth!

Baghdad alone has more than 1/5 of the population of Iraq.
That's the equivalent of the entire Northeast in the US.

1. Over the last year the number of insurgents in Iraq has quadrupled
www.time.com...

2. Attacks on U.S. troops are up 100% since last winter.
www.brookings.edu...

3. Major Iraqi cities such as Fallujah have become havens for insurgents and are completely inaccessible to U.S. troops.
registration.ft.com...//news.ft.com/cms/s/e0214956-074f-11d9-9672-00000e2511c8.html&resource=ftarc< br />
4. Security situations have stalled reconstruction - Iraq still has less electricity than they did before the war.
www.latimes.com...

5. Even some Bush administration officials have acknowledged that elections planned for January may have to be delayed.
www.iht.com...

Now I ask you, are we winning the war in Iraq? I'll let you be the judge.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Baghdad alone has more than 1/5 of the population of Iraq.
That's the equivalent of the entire Northeast in the US.

So I expect that you are trying to equate that with the percentage of the population that is involved in the insurgency?

Sorry, but that is a bogus assumption. The fact that Baghdad is a dangerous place is in direct relation to the fact that it is where the most coalition soldiers are. The insurgency is concentrating on our soldiers. The VAST majority of the general population of Baghdad is very grateful that we have freed them from the oppressive regime that murdered them and their families for decades.

No correlation what so ever...

Nice try....no cigar...

What are you talking about?!
Are you seriously suggesting that this is an unpopular rebellion?
Guerrilas can not operate without some popular support and if these rebels were as unpopular as you make out wouldnt we be seeing vigilante action by pro american iraquis? You know like the right wing paramilitaries in South America? Its not like they dont have weapons, i mean doesent every man over there own an AK 47 or something.?
Are you saying there is no relation between population density and unrest?
That this is all some conspiracy to make America look bad?
Why do you think the "coalition" forces are stationed in these areas?
You dont think that maybe theyre stationed there because maybe there is some corellation between pop. density and unrest?
No matter what you say you can not convince me that acountry where every week some random foreigner gets abducted and beheaded is a country on the way to stability. I really doubt Irag will be a major tourist destination anytime in the next ten years.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Correction...your opinion of the truth. Again, you "research", then report what you wish, and ignore the other side of the argument. The Iraqi Prime Minister knows better than you or any of your sources what goes on in his country. You ignore Democrats who shore up his statements, so do not tell me about your "truth". It is again, only your opinion of what the truth is. When you have been there as I have, then you will have some credibility.

You are quite correct, Allawi does know more than me, just as he also knows more than you. You take for granted that he claims Iraq is progressing while totally discounting his previous statement that terrorists are pouring across the borders. Well perhaps Allawi measures progress by an increasing number of terrorists, and I am not too inclined to disbelieve that is the case. However, the statements that I offered made by republicans can hardly be considered my opinion, can they?

Who is lying to you, Bush and Allawi or those republican members of congress? You decide, for they certainly all are not on the same page.

By the way, I do not resort to juvenile antics such as discounting another person's opinion or facts simply because they did not witness the issue first hand, since I find that a distasteful tactic employed when a defense is lacking. Considering your measure on being able to speak to an issue, the number of issues discussed in ATS should be limited to those who have experience or first hand knowledge of the topic only. I trust then that all of the discussions you take part in is because you have first hand credentials.

Your defensive posture makes me wonder why the American public gets a say on which individuals will be elected to government considering that by your perception, most of the 270 million or so citizens have no first hand knowledge of sitting in an official capacity, or what transpires behind the closed door sessions.

Now if you wish to have a civil discussion based on the information readily available, I will be pleased to oblige, but I decline to participate in your oppostion silencing platform.

Originally posted by boogyman

Are you seriously suggesting that this is an unpopular rebellion?

I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it outright. The vast, and I do mean VAST majority of Iraqi people want this insurgency to end so they can get back to some sense of normalcy. They also want the USA out of there, and I for one agree with them. They know that will not happen while the insurgency goes on, and in many places, they are so fed up they are beginning to fight the insurgents themselves.

The reason the terrorists have chosen large metro areas like Baghdad, besides the coalition presence, is that it is much easier to blend in and hide among the populace. Large population does not necessarily mean that the locals agree with the terrorists. That�s just ludicrous.

Originally posted by FredT
Ah the Kerry Plan;

Way to go John. Basically announce you have no faith in the Iraqi PM. Way to make life easier on him, and on our troops. The Democrats on this board must be so proud of thier candidate. How many EXTRA troops will die because old John was going for the sound bite. Did his French foreign policy advisors tell him this was a good plan?

Wanna' bet this is Terry Kerry's advice for foreign policy?
It may or may not be true, but you don't say it outloud like that.

BTW - Kerry said that his foreign policy for Iraq would be to get
foreign countries to send troops in. France said that it didn't matter
who was president of the USA. It would NEVER send in troops.
(that was on the news - no link). So much for Kerry's foreign policy.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Who is lying to you, Bush and Allawi or those republican members of congress? You decide, for they certainly all are not on the same page.

By the way, I do not resort to juvenile antics such as discounting another person's opinion or facts simply because they did not witness the issue first hand, since I find that a distasteful tactic employed when a defense is lacking. Considering your measure on being able to speak to an issue, the number of issues discussed in ATS should be limited to those who have experience or first hand knowledge of the topic only. I trust then that all of the discussions you take part in is because you have first hand credentials.

The problem here is that you unequivacally announce that "Bush and Alliwi" are lying. That, again, is your opinion, not fact. Try to understand the difference.

The juvenile portion of the exchange is your "holier than thou" attitude that you believe gives you the authority to claim that first hand knowledge is a "tactic" at all. It is not a tactic, it is simply a fact, one that you seem to have a problem understanding. Since most people fear what they do not understand, you then claim it to be, "a distasteful tactic employed when a defense is lacking." Quite the contrary. It is not a defense at all, it is simply a statement of fact. There is nothing lacking in a statement of fact. It does not take first hand knowledge to discuss a topic. However, my first hand knowledge does take precedence over your pure speculation, especially when corroborated by many other sources, many of which are also first hand.

Now, instead of trying to "shut me down" with your lengthy pontification, come up with some valid facts, or even state your opinions as opinions, and perhaps a discussion can be possible. If you are incapable of that, then by all means, as you threatened, remain silent.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

The problem here is that you unequivacally announce that "Bush and Alliwi" are lying. That, again, is your opinion, not fact. Try to understand the difference.

I see. First you tell me that I only see one side, now you tell me that I have unequivocally announced Bush a liar. Let me set it straight for you. This is a two-sided coin here, not one, and you have failed to see the side as painted by Republicans McCain; Hager; Lugar; Allawi; and Powell. But now I will definitely call Bush a liar. This is a man who has already lied to you by claiming he saw the first plane strike the WTC, and I'm sure you also believe his claim that God told him to attack the Taliban.

Whom do I believe? I believe first of all my eyes for day after day for 15 months now the steady stream of television images of blown up vehicles, bloodied and battered men women and children laying in hospital aisles, news of beheadings, thousands of Shia militia armed to the teeth and taking dead aim at coalition troops. I believe the residents of Iraq and I believe this man yet again:

Colin Powell Sept 26, 2004- Yes it's getting worse and the reason it's getting worse is that they are determined to disrupt the election

I do not expect any political leader responsible for launching a war to come out and proclaim to his people that it is not going well and in fact the act has created a rising tide of terrorism in a country that was void of same. Do you?

The juvenile portion of the exchange is your "holier than thou" attitude that you believe gives you the authority to claim that first hand knowledge is a "tactic" at all.

Frankly, you are as prone to fabrication as the man you vehemently defend. Were I to say anything further I would be engaging you in a flame war, and I am above that. And, since when does your supposed knowledge take precedence over The Secretary of State or U.S Senators?

Now I ask you again, is McCain, Hager, Lugar and Powell lying?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Frankly, you are as prone to fabrication as the man you vehemently defend. Were I to say anything further I would be engaging you in a flame war, and I am above that.

Actually, you prove yourself to be the fabrication expert here, taking people's words out of context and printing portions of statements to make yourself SEEM as if you tell the truth. You do not. Michael Moore has nothing on you. I deal in the ACTUAL truth, not what you wish to cut and paste and CLAIM to be the truth. That which you do is called "lying by omission".

There will be no "flame war", as I do not have the time to waste on someone who wishes to do nothing but lie. You aren't worth the time. Therefore, it's into the "ignore box� with you. A neat little tool that keeps those that wish to engage in historical revisionism off the page.

Say goodnight......