SCIENCE and the UFO CONTROVERSY

Originally posted by Imtor
Ask US Air Force, they are everywhere, on all continents. They are involved, they are guily in all that is hidden, they know what is going on

Imtor thanks for the post and, as well as the USAF, I'd say the US Navy also knows a thing or two about the UFO subject - whatever the case, the claims by the US Government that they 'are not in the business of collecting and studying information on the UFO phenomenon since the termination of Bluebook in 1970' are pretty laughable, even if a person just looks through their own documents.


USAF Factsheet on UFOs


There's also a good recent article below by Bill Chalker from his SCIENCE and the UFO CONTROVERSY column which deals with astronomer reports an wilfull ignorance about UFO research:

PAY ATTENTION SCIENCE, SKEPTICS AND MEDIA, ASTRONOMERS DO SEE UFOs

In the current issue of the Australian bimonthly magazine "UFOLOGIST" Vol.16, No.1 May-June, 2012, in my new column SCIENCE and the UFO CONTROVERSY I have written a piece with the focus: PAY ATTENTION SCIENCE SKEPTICS AND MEDIA, ASTRONOMERS DO SEE UFOs. I demolish a statement by Sydney Observatory consultant astronomer Dr. Nick Lomb where he stated "Only amateurs see UFOs," and that no serious observer, particularly astronomers or even amateur astronomers, has ever seen a UFO. Dr. Lomb, author of the recent excellent book "Transit of Venus," is an expert on astronomy, but he is clearly uninformed about serious UFO research.

link

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12


The US Navy is just as much involved. It may look like this is hating on the US but it's not. Actually the US cases are the most interesting ones and obviously a lot of the information is about them. Russian's and Chinese's military bodies are also aware, Russia is not behind. Even Hitler may have known something about it but all is lost or has moved to the US with operation Paperclip. UFOs have been spotted during WW2, now majority of all UFO cases are in the US also with lots of the technology developed by the Nazi moved to the US - makes sense right?

Originally posted by Imtor

Actually the US cases are the most interesting ones and obviously a lot of the information is about them.

I'd agree some of the U.S. UFO cases like the Edwards Air Force base incident and the Minot Air Force base incident are truly interesting but I think one of the most intiguing for me happened in Colares, Brazil in 1977 -this one from Chile in 1971 also sounds like a pretty freaky one.

As for the OP and the subject of the Condon Report, there's an excellent documentary below which examines the agendas and motivations behind the Committee (starts around 37:50) :

Scrupulously accurate, intelligently conceived, UFOs: The Secret History is the thinking viewer's guide to the puzzles and paradoxes of an extraordinary phenomenon that continues to haunt our times and trouble our dreams. It is also gorgeously filmed - a feast to eye and mind, a thrilling experience on every level."

Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12

Stanford University astrophysicist Peter Sturrock exposed the 'huge disconnecton' between Condon’s conclusions and the actual reports of the scientists who conducted the research and how many of his final summaries were 'variously misleading, false or inaccurate'.

Another relevant critique from Dr J. Allen Hynek published in the 'Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists'.

The Condon Report and UFOs

So true Karl ! All around.
This was never treated as the bombshell story
the subject should have received .

The proof is in the pudding;
The Air Force spent a whopping 500k on their
official UFO investigation.... They spent that in toilet prototypes
for one Stealth bomber alone.

And that toilet is simply a seat behind the cockpit
no doors no divider, nothing.

Originally posted by sealing

The proof is in the pudding;
The Air Force spent a whopping 500k on their
official UFO investigation.... They spent that in toilet prototypes
for one Stealth bomber alone.

And that toilet is simply a seat behind the cockpit
no doors no divider, nothing.

Hey Sealing thanks for the post mate and that's certainly a relevant analogy about a toilet - also thought 'UFOReality' made a pretty good point in this post and there's an image of the actual USAF / UoC contract on page 1 of the file below ( bill to be footed by the '1100th Support Group').

PDF File

Cheers.

More from Bill Chalker where he describes being advised by a scientist to "Never admit that your interest is in UFOs or you'll get nowhere. You're more likely to get cooperation in hunting witches".

Ufology - "One Way forward": use the approach of science

Debunking Skeptics and true believers would do well to read Edward Ashpole's fascinating new book. It highlights the need for UFO research to focus on good science, something I have been advocating throughout my own journey through the extraordinary UFO mystery.

Link

reply to post by karl 12


Hi Karl interesting thread with goodies to boot , will have to check out the free e-book later .
Not sure if I've seen the above documentary but with the tag line *Scrupulously accurate, intelligently conceived" my curiosity is piqued so it's lined up for viewing tonight .

Congrats on the promotion mate

One complication in studying ufos is they are not passive. When a biologist studies plants the plants are passive objects of study. Likewise with chemistry and astronomy; the stars are passive objects that do not respond to being studied. Ufonauts are not passive; they engage in the act of observation and influence the results of that observation. Some people say that they waved at a ufo and it responded by dipping or making some such gesture. So any attempt to pin down these things can be manipulated by the ufonauts' engagement in the attempt to study of them.

In the abduction scenario the aliens tend to agree with the abductee's personal belief system. Christians see Christian symbolism, New Age people are given imagery appropriate to their beliefs. Ufonauts say they are from Venus, Mars, Zeta Reticuli, 'The outer galaxies' 'A small galaxy near Neptune' and so on and so forth. Clearly they are responding to questions and observations by using them to obfuscate or lead the observer in all kinds of directions. But they don't come clean and tell it like it is. They want to remain a mystery.

They are also in the business of mythmaking. They create a sensation to attract people and then undermine it to drive 99% of them away. Examples of this might be Strieber, Adamski or Meier. It is very easy for ufonauts to set up a contactee and make him/her credible to attract people and then destroy that contactee's credibility. In this way they create a sieve to attract many and then drive most away.

Angelucci - who is largely discredited but might be one such manipulated contactee - said that the ufonauts themselves contribute to the confusion in order to create a smoke screen.

So what are they up to? Well, one way to answer that question is to look and see what they have achieved so far-

Intense belief among a small number of people.

Vast doubt among most.

Confusion among scientists.

Fear in politicians.

Apparent complicity with the military.

Perhaps this is exactly what they set out to do since this is what has in fact happened?

reply to post by karl 12

In 1973 UFOs were back with a vengeance in the one of the biggest UFO waves the US had ever experienced. UFOs have refused to be put down and they continue to be reported and continue to be marginalised by science

Might that be because even after over 65 years of this claimed physical phenomenon, there's still no physical evidence? Even with the increase in sightings since those reports. Scientists understand the enormity of the claim of alien visitation. Therefore they need equal evidence to support that. Stories, video, photographs are not enough evidence to support what is being seen or told is an alien life form.

Some people also believe this is surrounded by a government/military conspiracy. That there is physical evidence, but it's just being hidden. You also would have to believe this is a worldwide conspiracy by every government out there. Because, if an alien race was visiting Earth, it would not be exclusive to the United States. Also, every single piece of physical evidence ever left, the government of whatever nation the event happened, would have to come swooping in and take away every piece of it.

Also, believers repeatedly pull up Blue Book and such, complaining they lacked scientific study. When in fact they did have a scientist, J Allen Hynek, who became a proponent of the phenomenon through investigating the cases. After studying these cases, what was his conclusion? He had none, only hypotheticals, and said the phenomenon should be studied further. To say there wasn't scientific study, is saying Hynek, who was an astrophysicist, wasn't qualified. He absolutely was qualified and still came up with no conclusion. If Hynek found that one piece of 100% scientific, undeniable evidence that UFOs are connected to aliens, he would have come forth with that proof. He did not. Obsessively rehashing Condon, Blue Book and the others every 6 months or a year ad naseum, does not prove anything. It's only continuing to grasp at straws.

Ultimately, it would take scientific study of a piece of physical evidence in order to come to a conclusion that whatever was found, isn't from Earth. However, this physical evidence would more than likely come from one of the billions of average citizens of the world. Via claimed physical landings, abductions, etc. It's far too convenient of an excuse to have everything wrapped up in a perfect little government/military conspiracy box. The go-to reasoning behind having no verifiable concrete physical evidence ever, is it's being kept from us. That falls apart when you're speaking in terms of thousands of sightings, abductions, landings, interactions with these aliens, by average citizens. This is obviously not a government exclusive event. So where's that one piece physical evidence in the thousands of reports and 65+ year popularity? I don't think that's asking too much.

Gravity—two crackpot questions

On the contentious question of whether gravity is a pulling or pushing force, two even more contentious (crackpot?) questions:
(1) If gravity is a pulling force mediated by spin-2 (pulling) bosons (gravitons), how does a neutron deep within a neutron star compete with surrounding neutrons for the raw materials to produce gravitons ad infinitum?
(2) If gravity is a pushing force mediated by spin-0 (pushing) bosons (gravinos), which impart gravity in the manner of radiation pressure and are responsible for the lightspeed limit of photons and artificially accelerated matter but not subject to it themselves and must travel at perhaps billions of times the speed of light in order to impart sufficient force to mediate gravity by raining in all directions sparsely enough to not create an all-powerful traffic jam (in which case the surface gravity of a neutron star is Gmax [roughly 7 billion] g), the full pushing force of gravinos striking it from space and unopposed by gravinos from the opposite side, assuming virtually none penetrate a neutron star), in the case in which an atomic nucleus on the surface of the Earth receives the full force of gravinos striking it from directly above, can we reasonably expect the opposing force of gravinos arriving from the opposite side of the Earth, passing through nearly unscathed and striking our atomic nucleus from below, to impart force diminished by only 1 g, where Gmax down opposed by Gmax-1 up leaves net downward force of 1 g imparted to that atomic nucleus by the constant stream of gravinos?

If it was only the major superpowers controlling all of the information on UFOs, then it might make sense that they would be compartmentalizing any information they have according to its applicability to creating weapons. But there are a lot of countries on the planet, and they've all either had sightings there or they're in contact with people who know the information the superpowers are supposedly keeping hidden. There is no reason, for instance, for Brazil to keep any UFO information hidden. Or Australia. Or any number of other countries. But we get the standard kinds of reports from them that we do from the US. Somebody sees or experiences something odd, and nothing comes of it.

The US, China, Russia, Great Britain, France, Germany, etc., do not control all of the information in the entire world. The fact that we have not as far as anyone knows recovered any indisputably "alien" hardware can either mean that the militaries of the world are cooperating on a level we have no idea about and have been 100% effective in keeping everything under wraps (and I doubt any military can be 100% effective at anything), or there just ain't any.

As others have said, the governments of the world may be keeping some bits of information about UFOs secret, just because that's what they do. But it's the UFOs themselves that seem to ultimately be in charge of any "disclosure," and if they decided tomorrow to let everybody in on the big secret - whatever it may be - there's apparently nothing any government could do to stop it.

As for science, it kind of requires things to be repeatable, and only rarely do UFOs show up on schedule anywhere. It took centuries for people to prove that meteorites are actually bits of rock falling to Earth from the sky because they were so odd and intermittent. And this is even when meteor rocks could actually be found on the ground and studied. "Came from an exploding volcano," or whatever. With UFOs, they very rarely leave behind physical evidence, and when they do it's just footprints or burned foliage or some other mundane thing.

Are the alien artifact retrieval teams of the world's largest governments so effective that they always get every little bit of alien garbage evidence that might have been left after a sighting? I find that harder to believe than aliens.

It's simply the major cause of this quandary: That NASA scientists are corrupt in falsely assuming...that there is no life outside our planet, unless they can prove ---- with costly space endeavours --- that life exists elsewhere.

With the Feds and our security apparatus knowingly shove the facts that life exists off our planet...under the rug --- so as to support more funding for NASA's exploration programs. A "cosmic watergate" so to speak.