The Lie of Evolution from a Credible Scientist

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
There is NO evidence for evolution

Yes there is. However, there's no evidence, none, to the contrary. You can't see this because you were conditioned to believe into supernatural.

Originally posted by spyder550

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why are Christians so insecure in their faith in God that they have to completely debunk alternative theories that challenge this?

Because they think that if they can disprove evolution, then creationism is true by default. Another logical error.

Their faith is for the most part defined by the bible -- evolution turns a great deal of that into nice little stories, then the whole thing starts to unravel

Agreed. It's just one big circular argument--they use the Bible to claim the Bible (and creationism) is true.

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why are Christians so insecure in their faith in God that they have to completely debunk alternative theories that challenge this?

Because they think that if they can disprove evolution, then creationism is true by default. Another logical error.

The fallacy of misplaced concreteness happens when you image the outcome with no evidence. ID has the evidence by implication of the theory AND by comparison to what is seen from what is hidden. The Bible said it all along.

Hebrews 11
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

What is not visible is information. Consciousness is information to purpose. An acorn is your evidence. Just one example of a trillion.

I wish I could give you a hundred stars for this. It's very close to what I believe, too.

What would I do with 100 stars? Wear them on my belly? But there are no stars on thars...we are all sneetches just the same.

I kid, but seriously belief in a Creator and Science should never be at odds...

What about a Maker who created consciousness inside of bodies that evolve?

Maybe you know of the 7-Year Cellular Rebuild Cycle in which all of the cells in your body are destroyed and rebuilt? Obviously, this is what causes aging. It causes evolution as well. As far as the Maker is concerned we should all live forever - this world being a proverbial Heaven and Hell depending on your choices and ephemeral state of being - but the things we put into our bodies destroy them.

I'm not set on the idea that "God" created the Earth in 7 days, blah blah blah B.S - but I'm not convinced there wasn't a being who sparked reflective conscious thought.

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by spyder550

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why are Christians so insecure in their faith in God that they have to completely debunk alternative theories that challenge this?

Because they think that if they can disprove evolution, then creationism is true by default. Another logical error.

Their faith is for the most part defined by the bible -- evolution turns a great deal of that into nice little stories, then the whole thing starts to unravel

Agreed. It's just one big circular argument--they use the Bible to claim the Bible (and creationism) is true.

I'll deny ignorance. Using the Bible is not the only form of evidence. It is the enigma to the evidence. The evidence presents itself on all levels of reality and then confirms itself in Word, both written and Living. The Word we know is symbolic reference to the Word / Wave that governs physics. Law is the parallel enigma that is then verified by Truth. Truth is wisdom that is matched by observation in nature, then mirrored in the Word of God and by experience.

Science is the only circular argument based on misplaced concreteness. Faith, however, is founded on assurance of what we do not see, but can verify by observation of what we can seen. Science is the same faith, lacking only the admission of belief in information preexisting matter. Blasphemy against the Spirit is denial of this fact seen in nature. All we know is information. Matter is not the cause, but the result.

Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

By faith, science uses information to change the states of matter by design. This is the evidence by parroting what God has done before us. Collapsing the indeterminate wave requires reason, logic and consciousness by choice. Otherwise, we have matter that acts only on itself and flows away from the source, lacking the ability to flow the other direction. Entropy in information theory shows us the facts in information. Information can only degrade (flow away) in nature apart from LIFE. Life is different on the level of programmed information. A child can see this, yet a biased mind will deny, focusing instead on misplaced concreteness of imagination.

Originally posted by AlexanderTurboLover
What about a Maker who created consciousness inside of bodies that evolve?

Maybe you know of the 7-Year Cellular Rebuild Cycle in which all of the cells in your body are destroyed and rebuilt? Obviously, this is what causes aging. It causes evolution as well. As far as the Maker is concerned we should all live forever - this world being a proverbial Heaven and Hell depending on your choices and ephemeral state of being - but the things we put into our bodies destroy them.

I'm not set on the idea that "God" created the Earth in 7 days, blah blah blah B.S - but I'm not convinced there wasn't a being who sparked reflective conscious thought.

7 days for God is 7, 000 years to us. The Golden ratio then applies making this 7 years 15 billion years of actual transition. The reason we see a literal week is that we experience the wave as it progresses, not as it spirals by perspective. Take a golden rectangle, then add 6 inside it. The first day is the largest. For God, it's like looking down a spiral staircase. For us, it's the same on each part of the wave. We look back and see 15 billion years. God looks outside of our realization of time from infinity. We see the pattern in all of nature. It is a toroidal vortex.



The cellular rebuild cycle is a mirror to the rest as evidence of the designer. This is the same heptadic structure in the Bible throughout, despite the fact that it was written by 40+ authors over thousands of years. Consider your history.

Adam to Abraham 2000 years 2 Days (Age of the Father Abraham)
Abraham to Jesus 2000 years 2 Days (Age of the Son)
Jesus to Today 2000 years 2 Days (Age of the Holy Spirit)

1000 day of Rest and the Day of the Lord in Judgment of the nations. Revelation has the key to this day as being today. Also, Matthew 24 gives us the signs to see it clearly.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

'Enoch I' then describes the last day judgment of the divine beings that corrupted the earth. 70 generations were given the divine beings until judgment. Enoch was taken around 950 after Adam. A Generation is calculated by dividing the precession of the earth by 360=72.2222

Multiply 70 generations X 72.2222 and you get 5055. Add this to Enoch's age. 6000

Israel becomes a nation 1948. Add one generation. 2018. Take away 7 years of tribulation. 2012.

Matthew 24

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words (Laws / Wave / Information) will never pass away.

Information can be saved. We know this now.

I see. This thread was really just to quote a whole bunch of stuff from the Bible and has absolutely NOTHING to do with either the title or the intro video.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by HappyBunny

 

The real question here is not one of evolution, but the direction evolution takes. Either it is pushed along from behind or it drags us along from ahead. The atheist says we are dragged by happy and continual chance. This goes against collapsing wave theory. The ID champion knows the truth: We are both. We have a source that we flow from. We also have a source to rise back to, denying entropy of information but not energy. What is information? Let's ask a physicist. Leondard Susskind knows the answer. Energy in movement is information creating transition. Again, consciousness predates matter.

Why do you guys insist on bringing thermodynamics into a creationist argument when it's clear you know nothing about it?

Where's your equation? That's all we need to see. If you don't have one, well, you've got nothing. And if you do, you'd better hope it comes out to less than zero.

The second law of thermodynamics allows for a decrease in entropy if there is an increase somewhere else. You consistently try to apply it to biological evolution (wrongly). What about the ongoing creation of entropy? How do you explain that? Do you really believe that the biological world goes from order to disorder?

Look, it's like this. Every living organism, even those at rest, have a few million or billion individual irreversible processes going on every second of every day the organism is alive. And they are happening spontaneously. They must, or they violate the second law. BUT...if they are operating spontaneously, then each of those processes is generating a net positive entropy, just as the second law dictates.

A billion simultaneous processes going on every second in several billion or trillion cells, every second, of every day, in every living organism. Imagine that.

So...where is the reduction in entropy you guys claim is happening and refutes evolution? Not only do you have to explain that, you have to explain the magnitude of the power that would be required to overcome all that entropy.

Bottom line is this: if an organism puts out more entropy that it consumes, it conforms to the second law.

Period.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by spyder550

Originally posted by HappyBunny

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why are Christians so insecure in their faith in God that they have to completely debunk alternative theories that challenge this?

Because they think that if they can disprove evolution, then creationism is true by default. Another logical error.

Their faith is for the most part defined by the bible -- evolution turns a great deal of that into nice little stories, then the whole thing starts to unravel

Agreed. It's just one big circular argument--they use the Bible to claim the Bible (and creationism) is true.

I'll deny ignorance. Using the Bible is not the only form of evidence. It is the enigma to the evidence. The evidence presents itself on all levels of reality and then confirms itself in Word, both written and Living. The Word we know is symbolic reference to the Word / Wave that governs physics. Law is the parallel enigma that is then verified by Truth. Truth is wisdom that is matched by observation in nature, then mirrored in the Word of God and by experience.

Science is the only circular argument based on misplaced concreteness. Faith, however, is founded on assurance of what we do not see, but can verify by observation of what we can seen. Science is the same faith, lacking only the admission of belief in information preexisting matter. Blasphemy against the Spirit is denial of this fact seen in nature. All we know is information. Matter is not the cause, but the result.

Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

By faith, science uses information to change the states of matter by design. This is the evidence by parroting what God has done before us. Collapsing the indeterminate wave requires reason, logic and consciousness by choice. Otherwise, we have matter that acts only on itself and flows away from the source, lacking the ability to flow the other direction. Entropy in information theory shows us the facts in information. Information can only degrade (flow away) in nature apart from LIFE. Life is different on the level of programmed information. A child can see this, yet a biased mind will deny, focusing instead on misplaced concreteness of imagination.

edit on 20-3-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

You constantly make no sense whatsoever, in a convoluted form of logic you think you are applying....

^ don't mistake the above line for me 'Not understanding what you are trying to say'

The evidence presents itself on all levels of reality and then confirms itself in Word, both written and Living. The Word we know is symbolic reference to the Word / Wave that governs physics. Law is the parallel enigma that is then verified by Truth. Truth is wisdom that is matched by observation in nature, then mirrored in the Word of God and by experience.


The above paragraph is your whole form of reasoning, Symbolic reference?? parellel enigma's then verified by truth?

And at the end of every nosensical sentence containing very long words that all look pretty together you slap the claim that this proves God did it......


And i agree with the above posters, stop quoting the Bible,

you cant use a thing that may/may not be true to prove it IS true!

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
There is NO evidence for evolution

Yes there is. However, there's no evidence, none, to the contrary. You can't see this because you were conditioned to believe into supernatural.

Evolution states that matter originates consciousness. This is a lie and there is no evidence for this thought. Give me some evidence. I have provided plenty of science to back my statements. So far, the only statements in favor of evolution here are incredulity in word of opposition. Bring the facts to the table. Show the science.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Evolution states that matter originates consciousness. This is a lie and there is no evidence for this thought. Give me some evidence. I have provided plenty of science to back my statements. So far, the only statements in favor of evolution here are incredulity in word of opposition. Bring the facts to the table. Show the science.

You have provided nothing but babbling Bible quotes. The one thing you haven't provided is anything that even remotely smells like science.

There is plenty of evidence that matter produces consciousness. A) we have zero examples of things that have consciousness without a physical brain. B) when brains are damaged through Alzheimer's, comas, etc., consciousness is affected.

Originally posted by camus154
I see. This thread was really just to quote a whole bunch of stuff from the Bible and has absolutely NOTHING to do with either the title or the intro video.

If you bother reading the thread in total, I provide statements aplenty to back the claim that consciousness is responsible for changing the states of matter. Matter cannot do this on its own apart from contrived theory of misplaced concreteness. Show the science. I have done my part. Information entropy and collapsing wave function back me 110% on the matter of matter. Information is inert apart from a consciousness choice to collapse the wave that is indeterminate. To make it determined, a choice must be made. This requires thought and decision for the choice to be made.

According to our best theory, the universe started as a mystery of energy in a high state of order with low entropy. It was a hot cup of coffee in all directions of the same state. As entropy took place and the states of matter changed, evolution says the end product of a conscious being is the accident that needs no consciousness. Religion has the answer to this problem of information entropy and collapsing wave function. Consciousness is what came first. Matter is changed by state from high order to purpose by choice.

Demonstrate your power over matter without thought or movement and you have a case for evolution. Even your body is provided for you. You do not make you hair grow, the sun shine or your digestive system function. You think and you move. That's it. One is dependent on the other. The rest is done for you and cannot be said to have come from a source of sun and moon. All things flow away from their source. Nothing rises above its source. We are infinitely more complex than the matter that surrounds us. We are greater than what science can tag as our source. What does that tell you of our source?

Originally posted by camus154

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Evolution states that matter originates consciousness. This is a lie and there is no evidence for this thought. Give me some evidence. I have provided plenty of science to back my statements. So far, the only statements in favor of evolution here are incredulity in word of opposition. Bring the facts to the table. Show the science.

You have provided nothing but babbling Bible quotes. The one thing you haven't provided is anything that even remotely smells like science.

There is plenty of evidence that matter produces consciousness. A) we have zero examples of things that have consciousness without a physical brain. B) when brains are damaged through Alzheimer's, comas, etc., consciousness is affected.

I suppose you missed the natural science and physics I have provided. Read back a few pages and notice these:

Flow and the changed states of matter

Governing laws of physics

Information Entropy

Collapsing Wave Function Theory

Then, we have the OP video. Plenty of reference to observation in this video.

Did you catch the Leondard Susskind video on Entropy really being information?

I can provide more if someone would give one scrap of evidence in favor of evolution other than misplaced concreteness or incredulity. I have provided plenty to talk about so far.

LINK to Susskind Video

reply to post by HappyBunny

Why do you guys insist on bringing thermodynamics into a creationist argument when it's clear you know nothing about it?

Entropy in energy is not the same as entropy in information theory. You are confusing the two.

reply to post by Quantum_Squirrel

You constantly make no sense whatsoever, in a convoluted form of logic you think you are applying.... ^ don't mistake the above line for me 'Not understanding what you are trying to say' The evidence presents itself on all levels of reality and then confirms itself in Word, both written and Living. The Word we know is symbolic reference to the Word / Wave that governs physics. Law is the parallel enigma that is then verified by Truth. Truth is wisdom that is matched by observation in nature, then mirrored in the Word of God and by experience. The above paragraph is your whole form of reasoning, Symbolic reference?? parellel enigma's then verified by truth? And at the end of every nosensical sentence containing very long words that all look pretty together you slap the claim that this proves God did it...... And i agree with the above posters, stop quoting the Bible, you cant use a thing that may/may not be true to prove it IS true!

By Word, you might see linguistics. By Word, I mean the wave of collapsing wave theory. We now know that we live in a dimensional universe. We can observe the first four directly. The fourth is time. To change the states of matter and allow matter to be in motion, probability allows for only so many outcomes. The infinity of possibility is reduced by probable outcomes. Matter flows by governed law. To change the flow, we need a conscious choice to make the indeterminate outcome determined. We do this by consciousness. A choice is made to change the states of matter by design when we take the indeterminate wave function and determine the outcome from intelligence and thought by value. Word is the cause of the law and the allowance of free will for the consciousness that follows the pattern.

Evolution says that rocks and stars in space originate solar systems of perfect movement toward the accidental purpose of life on a planet. Further, it suggests that simple, single celled lifeforms then move to lower entropy of information against what is observed in nature. On the contrary, matter will lose information over time. This is what entropy in information suggests. This is why we die and why a CD will not last forever. What cannot be explained is how we are greater in complexity than the matter around us. Life is different by information and logic, which is engineered from greater to lower. The engineering cannot go backwards or we would witness this movement and flow in all systems. Entropy in information, as well as entropy in energy would be reversed for this to be true. All things flow away from a greater source.

The Big Band theory suggests that the original state of the universe was high order and low entropy. It degrades over time. Evolution states that matter originates consciousness. Not so by observation. It is opposite as shown by ALL observation, including the symbolic meaning left in all nature. Purpose and design are obvious.

Originally posted by Figzer
This is just a video of some guy who doesn't understand the subtle complexity of evolution. Or DNA, apparently.

edit on 20-3-2012 by Figzer because: (no reason given)

Actually this person cannot be a real scientist as he cannot debunk ALL of the evidence in support of evolution in his life time.

Sadly science is now so specialised that the various biological disciplines alone can barely talk to each other.

Sorry Enochwasright both you and Enoch Powell were decidedly Wrong!

First thing's first. The topic title, and the video title. Hilarious. It's always worth noting when a creationist, anti-evolutionist, or IDer is a real scientist. Compare to evolution. Ever hear "Evolution is said to be true, by a REAL SCIENTIST!". No, because doubting it is so fringe amongst scientists.

So, as the video opens, he talks about his credentials. While having a background in medicine is slightly relevant, he's actually not an eminent scientist on the field of evolution. "Scientist" means nothing when it's in a different field. I'd listen to cosmologists about the age of the universe a lot more seriously than doctors and engineers.

And what does being related in any field affected by evolution do to your beliefs? If you're involved in biology, archaeology, paleontology, ect, and knowing the relevant information, you're far more likely to belief in evolution. Out of "Scientists", 95% believe in evolution. Out of "Eminent Scientists", the ones who should know whether or not it's true, that number goes up to 99.99% Admit-ably, his knowledge of human development in a medical sense is at least slightly vaguely in a relevant field. Though at the same time, it's a field unaffected by how it arised, but just how it is. Therefor, not trust him.

~
With that out of the way. He's saying it's hard not to attribute "Divinity" to a system because it's.. complex? Or just because it's impressive? Not only is he failing to understand that evolution explains the arisal of complex systems, but he's also arguing out of ignorance. He's saying that, since he doesn't know how something so complex could form, it was designed from a deity. "I don't know, therefor I know" is one of the most ridiculous arguments he could be making(I was expecting better), but it's even more ridiculous because the information that would explain it was out there and he's just not well informed.

That is, if he's even making a statement against evolution. He described a feeling, using vague words, and isn't at all clear about what he beliefs. He also uses the words "Mystery" and "Magic". He could of meant "Divinity" in just as Non-literal a way he meant "Magic".

~
These just shows how feeble the Creationists attempts are acting like the have scientific branding, or that Evolution is unscientific. If the best you've got is drawing straws, at vague statements made by irrelevant scientists, it really shows how little backing you have.

For the Christian/Cathoic/Whatever crowd:

Who do you think put evolution into motion?

Who do you think put life as we know it into motion?

Science is just a study of life around us, whereas Religion is about where we (Conscious human beings) came from and where we go after we die, personally I don't see why the two can't go hand in hand.

I'm a firm believer in evolution and scientific theory but I believe in the word of God and read the bible as well and seriously don't see why (Nor where in the bible it says) the two can't peacefully coexist.

Just because most scientists believe in the big bang theory doesn't mean they have it 100% correct and my opinion is that their staunch atheism prevents them from believing that SOMETHING HIGHER had to set that bang into motion. But not just the big bang; all of reality as we know it.

Call me crazy, call me whatever you want, but I don't see why you get so bent out of shape on this topic and state that "ITS NOT TRUE BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS ITS NOT TRUE"

The Bible doesn't mention evolution because, well, do you really think they had the comprehension to understand it back in those days?

Do you really believe they had the vernacular to describe science and evolutionary theory and fully comprehend it?

I mean Darwin was a self-proclaimed agnostic, he believed that even though we evolved from monkeys that those monkeys and everything before them had to have come from somewhere, and that somewhere in his mind was a higher power. God, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Yahweh, whatever you want to call him, set all of this in motion at the beginning of what we like to call 'time'.

So seriously please stop with the "EVOLUTION IS A LIE" threads. They're seriously getting old.

Originally posted by Tiger5

Originally posted by Figzer
This is just a video of some guy who doesn't understand the subtle complexity of evolution. Or DNA, apparently.

edit on 20-3-2012 by Figzer because: (no reason given)

Actually this person cannot be a real scientist as he cannot debunk ALL of the evidence in support of evolution in his life time.

Sadly science is now so specialised that the various biological disciplines alone can barely talk to each other.

Sorry Enochwasright both you and Enoch Powell were decidedly Wrong!

And that evidence would be.....? Care to list a few items from science to support the claim that matter can create consciousness?