HC's Ancient Aliens last episode "The Mystery of Puma Punku" DEVASTATED the show haters.

Wait-wait-wait....

I did not read al the pages...I didn't need to.

Are you so sure that humanity is that stupid? Are you really ready to relegate all of our advances and achievements to alien intervention?

I'm not.

I have immense pride in our species...I think we have done extremely well....

I don't think we needed help finding fire and stacking rocks on top of each other. You seem to hate your species...I dont. I think we are very clever and given the timeline....which may be incorrect (as science does correct itself constantly)..I think we could have done all of this....just cause we are smart f'ers.

You might need to feel the need to attribute our ingenuity to something else...but i don't...I think we did it and that is all that is needed to be said....to attribute our success to an outside force is slackerism at it's finest....we are clever and hardworking....maybe the slackers of this world got their lead from stoned out and worthless aliens....but our science and discovery comes from hard work....not alien intervention....sorry if you are lost.

I stand by it and always will...

There may be intelligent life out there, but is is not and never has interacted with us....we have a ever growing group of fail that thinks they did....but there is nothing to prove it...rather than except logic...the fail wants to believe it is a conspiracy...whatever....I am clever...If the aliens came and didn;t come see me...they suck...my IQ smacks most peoples into the basement...so....if I am not interesting enough to get their attention...they arent here....sorry.

Wanna compare IQ results?.....if they wanted to contact an open mind with a high capacity to comprehend...I should have been top of the list...hell...even MENSA invited me to join.....sorry....you guys are dead wrong...there is nothing out there watching over us and interacting....there may be intelligent life out there...but it would not and should not care about us.....to think so is arrogance at it's finest hour...we aren't that special...just in your mind...

Originally posted by arbiture
That was the "conspiracy" called co-operative behavior. And to keep certain skills, etc in the family and later an association of like minded people defined by skills and monetary interests, well that was logical because what THEY could do was worth a lot of money, which begets power, so the "secrets" were what we today call a job skill set. Not so diabolical when seen in that light and was guarded as trade secrets are today. Its all about the money, always was and is.

What is interesting is these skills sets were used in Egypt 3000 BC and earlier being perfected at about 2000 to 2500 BC, and about 2000 BC they started to show up in the Americas and being perfected about 1500 BC. What I find interesting is Man came to the Americas about 25,000 years ago from mainly an ice bridge connecting Asia. Since the Americas are very isolated from the rest of the world it is quite fascinating that extremely similar styles were discovered and perfected independently.

I feel that this would be highly unlikely unless some evidence comes forward that there is really only one linear path for ancient stone workers to physically follow no matter where they started. I also feel this is unlikely too, and so there might have been more worldly travels in our past than what we think there was that had some kind of connection to a guild style society as the keepers of knowledge and skills.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I certainly don't think there must be, or likely is is one path for all ancient peoples, to have done what they did. Like us, often it was trial and error. Though many technologies were known at least in the CE to the Chinese before discovered or developed in the west, the reason they didn't use it the way the west did was much more a cultural mind set, not a skill set. Sometimes the greatest impediment to advances in technologies involves cultures that prize stability over advancement or opportunity.

After all, change is most frightening with those in any society who have the most and in theory the most to loose. Short sighted as that may seem book burnings for thousands of years shows how scary new ideas can be, it dethrones those who like being on a throne. Ask anyone hiding any discovery during the inquisition.

Originally posted by ArMaP
What remains to be explained, to me, is how they made those square "pits" in the middle of the stones, because even if they used some kind of drill to make those small holes that would help break the stone, that method works when we can move the two halves in opposite directions, but when doing that in the centre of a stone we cannot make the rock break only in the centre without breaking the whole stone.

They used copper saws, followed by chisels.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Copper chisels? Copper is too soft for that, isn't it?

this is another good one

reply to post by Xtrozero


You do have a way to get this information and this largely for free. Getting data on drill cores, and other stuff is almost never defined as RESTRICTED ACCESS, unless it would pose a national security risk. And no, I won't indicate why this may be an issue. It's possible, but never heard of and/or had access to stuff that would indicate why. Not impossible but the good stuff is open to all, an OS and public access.

This is why science research for the most part must remain open to all. Consider, check out the US Geological Survey, and those companies that drill bore holes for deep core surveys. And the people at NOAA the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration. They do lots of drilling in places like glaciers and Antarctic and Arctic places. They also "do"Greenland, Alaska, help with stuff in Iceland Also check with the Australian CSIRO, the Commonwealth Scientific (and) Industrial Research Organization.

And for those companies that DO drill for a personal meaning financial interest? Oil companies, Booze and Hamilton is a less known contractor that provides high level support services, and I'm quite tired at the moment but will have my CompComSync System say get off your (mine actually NOT you) lazy ass and look it up. Its a real joy to see and speak to someone interested in things like this.Thanks for being intrigued by stuff like this.I really do mean that.

Very much like the US national labs, the CSIRO is a national lab with benefits that include tie-ins to the Australian and in some ways New Zealand military. Given the less then a gazillion dollars the US has thats not "wrong or immoral" it's just rational use of what in CSIRO are outstanding scientific resources The USA can spend money on jade toilets (thats just very creepy). What countries like Australia and many others do, they don't have mana from heaven.

Our (US) Black Sign or known as the Black Budget is greater by far then the total budget of many nations on Earth. CSIRO is just being smart frankly, though some find the collaboration of a truly scientific and civilian (well mostly, with help from every Australian resource like submarines, and stuff I can't talk about). I don't want some Aussie hitting me...or anyone actually. I cry easily. is the use of available resources. The US so compartments so much stuff they don't have to, but its a religion more then a logic for many CIA is among the most extreme, but don't want them to hit me either. Its one thing to cry but whimper? Oh thats just pathetic.
I will check on this and get you a large number free and OS resources complete with http/or https (better) access pathways. Often the ones that are civilian have .net ,com, or .co (a corporate link and the other would be ...gov obvious it's not the AAA...

Also many others as .u is often a tag that requires additional stuff but usually designates a university. Also ,au .nz is Australia and New Zealand, as they say respectively. What does that actually mean, by the way? But those are national internet tags AND NOT anything to do with each respected government, other then .uscg (the last is Federal Government, then we have [.us or .gov or .mi]l and thats military so use that and don't have authorization? Don't ask.

Do what I can and if no notes in a few days? Give me a private message on this site, but will get back to you. You really did make my day buddy. Yeah yeah I know I need to get out more, but I don't care.

reply to post by ArMaP


Copper is very soft in pure form by modern metal standards but consider. We have used diamond tipped, very "robust" materials like variants of shapes made of of raised areas of just stainless steal molibnium, hafnium super-carbide, carbon-carbon steel and raised portions that may contain super hardened materials, the raised areas on ordinary surfaces deflect the erosion to "slip" down angled surfaces, and are given very proprietary slipper and augmented angled surfaces to to that and with denser harder surface's with things like cobalt, and stuff like a sputtering or atomic layer of diamond, called synthetic super sapphire and thats harder and tremendously better then good old diamond.

However make a rig out of it it that will cut threw a solid and very dense steel plate like a razor through paper. I know because I tried it. Got scared (hold me...) OK sorry, that was pathetic. Very honest but pathetic. Also very true. Spooked the dudes I wanted to impress. Must have, as I can read some body language I did indeed just backed away, slowly, away like they were wussies (me yes, them not at all) who looked at me as if I just saw me transform into a man size sea snake, or Rick Santorum. I told them to relax and when I took my better then magic super-hero ring off AND put in a safe, they did.

Since diamond is so pretty for certain abilities I use an atomic deposition of synthetic supersaph**** (the**** is a code defining its structure and yup, serial number. Basic stuff usually. That includes serious secrets like endurance, heat tolerance and thats very important as diamond even the very best and very neat artificial stuff is one of the BEST thermal (heat) conductors known. But almost every day it gets a lot better. But the super cool stuff is akin to what we can call a laminate, think of Choban* Armor (*oops, misspelled again sorry people and most apologies to the UK that invented it.

We copied it and made it, umm cooler and lighter, Still quite classified, but having taken it apart, ah, never mind. Classified or not thats really Above Top Secret, and no pun, but it is, I assure you what is TS/SCI-SCA *** **** * The stuff that is associated with the "***'... stuff is very classified and time decay meaning in moments it won't be any more " actualized code words, pro-words, action words and actual specific codes" or my Moms fabulous recipe for home made potato salad. Thats what is meant by ABSOLUTE NEED TO KNOW and Very Above Top Secret. But not my Moms potato salad but its so good, it should be.

Lets just say and anyone who watches the history/military channel knows it is a laminated and unique combination of the interesting stuff. And thats nothing to what we have now. Gosh, I love my job, and if you had a clue that I get to play, ok more or less and get payed for it? If you wouldn't get s**** and giggles I am sorry, thats what work in time will be. No not diarrhea, but playing and enjoying it AND THEY PAY YOU! That is as close to certain in time as can be possible. I have no doubt and know that is the power of work and fun being synonymous. Anyone who won't get that in time will be a fossil.

Oh, regarding copper being soft? It is as said in pure form and even the ancients would ad tin to make bronze. But like just copper alone, and or diamond tipped stuff, even diamond and carbide steel we use in tunnel boring machine teeth and drill bits, they erode heat up and erode quicker or just brake (nasty, and DUCK!). So there replaced ad naseum.

So yes early copper in pure form was a pain in the ass (oh the master builders who had hot milton copper pored down their thought because THEY were dumb enough to tell Pharo "I assure you this WILL work, and given how hard the pyramid stone was? The master builder should have not been such an ass, and Pharo? Been nice if he had some moral compass, after all crossing the river Styx involved your sole being judged as to "are you a good witch or, a (sorry) Pharo or an immoral bastard? Problem with thinking ones a God. They will in time have to prove it. Good luck dumb ass god-king.

reply to post by arbiture


What is also interesting, other than your mom's potato salad, is when you take raw iron fresh out of the ground and throw some corn/rice husks into the melted mix, hammer it out while it is still warm and soft, then drop it quickly into a bucket of cold water you get a samurai sword...and that isn't soft.

Funny how something so basic as steel wasn't BEFORE the bronze age.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Copper chisels? Copper is too soft for that, isn't it?

The actual clamps used in locking the stones were 95.15% copper, 2.05% arsenic, 1.70% nickel, 0.84% silicon and 0.26% iron, but we have no proof they played with creating other metals that would have been hard and useful in their processes.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Perhaps steel or actually iron was so basic before the bronze age but keep in mind, it takes a lot more heat for iron to get hot enough for impurities to be a lesser issue. As for the materials you mentioned thats interesting and never thought of that before in the context of metallurgy. Dumb ass I am. They represent an interesting assortment of organic materials. Thats my field expressly, organo-metalic , polymers including charge transfer, aka; salts pseudo-polymers, Must be real tired and I am but thats no excuse for being a dip sh** I am. Jesse...

But an interesting comment, and will check further. Christ I hate looking -which-means being so stupid...Just don't tell anyone being an idiot TPTB already know, and should. Oh for shame; (putting bag over my head now and yup crying, must be tired)


But I don't lie when I say you make a good point right or wrong if it kicks my arrogant ass I cry harder, but it makes me think at least.

reply to post by AdamsMurmur


I agree, this is very important stuff indeed ! And the more it comes out in varied informational forms the better!
This stuff is almost as interesting as the tubes of mars!

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Harte

 

Copper chisels? Copper is too soft for that, isn't it?

No. Once sawn, the chisel need only break the stone in the corners. Roughing out the smoother surfaces can also be accomplished with a chisel - without making cuts - by merely directing the pounding force to one small area at a time

Smoothing the surfaces can be accomplished by rubbing with other stone.

Harte

Originally posted by Damrod
Wait-wait-wait....


There may be intelligent life out there, but is is not and never has interacted with us....we have a ever growing group of fail that thinks they did...the fail wants to believe it is a conspiracy...whatever....I am clever...If the aliens came and didn;t come see me...they suck...my IQ smacks most peoples into the basement...so....if I am not interesting enough to get their attention...they arent here....sorry.

Wanna compare IQ results?.....if they wanted to contact an open mind with a high capacity to comprehend...I should have been top of the list...hell...even MENSA invited me to join.....sorry....you guys are dead wrong...there is nothing out there watching over us and interacting....there may be intelligent life out there...but it would not and should not care about us.....to think so is arrogance at it's finest hour...we aren't that special...just in your mind...

wow..just wow...you basically said e.t's havent come here because they haven't stopped at your house to applaud you for your i.q score?

I can't figure out if you are just trying to be an internet troll or if you really are that in love with yourself

Originally posted by Harte
No. Once sawn, the chisel need only break the stone in the corners.

The problem I see in that is that a copper chisel would probably be used only once or twice, as the sharpen end would become dull (I think that's the right word, sorry if it isn't ).

Roughing out the smoother surfaces can also be accomplished with a chisel - without making cuts - by merely directing the pounding force to one small area at a time

But the same problem arises, copper is too soft for that, just some hits against a stone would mess up the chisel.

Smoothing the surfaces can be accomplished by rubbing with other stone.

I know, I have beein doing that for some time with my balcony.

What I think is that copper, while useful for something like a hammer or even an axe able to cut wood would not be as useful as a stone tool against stone.

One conclusion i have come to regarding recent debate and studying the context of Puma Punku, is that those who consider the Andesite blocks not of the Tiwanaku Culture will have to 'lose' the platform complex itself, the earthen cobble rubble construction with the megalithic sandstone block surface.


The dating evidence is from the fill of this construction, but Vranich, who did the dating, noted the Andesite blocks placed on the first layer seemed to 'constitute a repair'. Thus whilst the Puma Punku platform seems undoubtably a support for an enclosure formed from the Andesite blocks on it's surface, there is considerable possibility that the blocks were sourced from an unknown/destroyed previous usage, entirely unrelated to the subsequent platform.


This would be consistent with what is seen elsewhere at the greater Tiwanaku sites

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Harte
No. Once sawn, the chisel need only break the stone in the corners.

The problem I see in that is that a copper chisel would probably be used only once or twice, as the sharpen end would become dull (I think that's the right word, sorry if it isn't

).

No doubt it would, if it was sharpened.

I'm saying it would be used more like a "chipper" than a "cutter" to break free the stone after the saw was used.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Roughing out the smoother surfaces can also be accomplished with a chisel - without making cuts - by merely directing the pounding force to one small area at a time

But the same problem arises, copper is too soft for that, just some hits against a stone would mess up the chisel.

No need to sharpen a chisel when using it this way. Though, if it were used this way, it wouldn't actually be "chiseling," I admit.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Smoothing the surfaces can be accomplished by rubbing with other stone.

I know, I have beein doing that for some time with my balcony.

What I think is that copper, while useful for something like a hammer or even an axe able to cut wood would not be as useful as a stone tool against stone.

One of the many pdfs linked here concerning PP mentions some of the evidence for chiseling on those interior-type "box" cuts you're talking about.

It's a pdf posted on Michael Heiser's website - "Who Taught the Inca. Stonemasons Their Skills?"
Link

Close examination of some interior
angles of the precisely wrought stones reveals, even to the
naked eye, a fine groove in the very apex of the angles. We
suggest that these grooves result from the blade of a chisel-like
tool, and that the point in which the four planes meet was
made with a punch-like tool. No such tools have been recovered
or recorded, but other details at Tiahuanaco suggest the
use of chisels or punch-like tools. Several recessed pockets with
T-shaped cramp sockets (discussed in more detail below)
carved into them allow one to determine the tool's angle of
attack and its minimum length [Figure 22].

From the same link:

The known and documented tools of the Inca construction
trade are hammerstones, bronze pry bars, plumb bobs, and
ropes. Although several exemplars of chisels are held in Peruvian
museums, judging by the tool marks on building stones,
chisels were not used to cut or shape them. Evidence in the field
points to the occasional use of some sort of saws or files, and of
grinders.39

And:

STONECUTTING
To rough out, shape, and finish building blocks, the Inca
stonemasons pounded or crushed the work piece with hammerstones.
On roughed-out stones the technique leaves diagnostic
pit scars made by the impact of the hammers and patterns of
cup-or trough-like depressions reflecting work in progress. On
finished, or finely dressed stones, it also leaves pit scars: large
scars in the center of a stone's face from large hammers, small
scars along its arrises from small hammers. The particular
technique for drafting edges on a block results in dihedral
angles that are typically in excess of 90?, making the stone's
faces bulge out, pillow-like.21
Pit scars and patterns of cup- or trough-like depressions are
found on several roughly hewn and shaped stones at Tiahuanaco
[Figure 20].22 Although we have yet to find the actual
hammerstones, the marks suggest that the Tiahuanacan stonemasons,
to do the coarse work, used a technique quite similar
to that of the Incas.23

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Harte
No. Once sawn, the chisel need only break the stone in the corners.

The problem I see in that is that a copper chisel would probably be used only once or twice, as the sharpen end would become dull (I think that's the right word, sorry if it isn't

).

No doubt it would, if it was sharpened.
I'm saying it would be used more like a "chipper" than a "cutter" to break free the stone after the saw was used.

I know that in a North American context, copper tools were often used to 'sharpen' or add serrations to stone tools through pressure flaking. Doesn't speak directly to monoliths, but just saying.

Originally posted by arbiture

Perhaps steel or actually iron was so basic before the bronze age but keep in mind, it takes a lot more heat for iron to get hot enough for impurities to be a lesser issue.

You are right, and my explanation was very simple, but maybe the sticking point was inventing a primitive blast furnace to get the heat needed. I lived in Japan for five years and I took great interest into how their swords were made and at first it shocked me to the point of how simple it was that it took me time to really comprehend the simple fact of adding carbon (rice husks) to iron makes steel.....