Suffering from Social Phobia. Advice Needed.

reply to post by PittKitty


Oh, Pittkitty...

...but you know that we cannot hide forever. Life is meant to be shared. I don't have any advice to give you either... only my best wishes for a happier future.

reply to post by Alexander1111


I am not hiding forever. I am waiting. There is a difference
But considering the multitude of chit I have had to go through (not counting my social/psychological issues), the fact that I am still alive is more than enough proof I still try. Damn doctors keep reminding me of this. "After all that, you're still alive"... "Look at what you survived"... "At least you're still alive" and so on. I am sick of hearing that the only accomplishment I have to my name is the fact I am still alive.

Imagine having the social disorders you were born with... then add in a childhood that would be a petrie dish for cooking up a psychopath... and toss in medical issues that have left you mutated and officially labeled "zombie girl" and I guess I should be proud of the fact I *am* alive. But that does not mean it is any easier for me to be social now.

The one thing I *HAVE* done with my social issues is learned to not give a rats butthole about what others think when they see me. I do not care how I look, I don't care if people stare - that took me most of my life to finally get past that. Sad thing is... I got past it because I was forced to lose all sense of dignity and embarrassment while in the hospital for 3 months. When doctors are trying to save your life, keeping your body covered is NOT a priority. 100's of people saw me butt naked and worse... after I finally got home, I found myself able to go out in public without caring about all the stares or whispers as I walk by.

You have to find the good things in the worst situations, right? If I did not have such identifiable scars and tattoos, I would totally go on some fetish site so I can make some money posing nude with all my nasty scars and shtuff.

Originally posted by Alexander1111
Hello!

CONGRATS ON YOUR COURAGE.

One of the things I love about the net is strangers coming together to help one another.

My turn to respond to your situation and request . . .

I am making this thread because for a number of reasons, which I explain directly below, I believe I have reached my limits and I am hoping that some of you might be able to offer me some advice.

I can only offer my training and my experience . . . my opinions, perspective, suggestions, educational insights. What you do with them is totally up to you and at your own risk. I'm responding to your presentation of yourself on the net--something less ideal in some respects than face to face. However, it also affords you anonymity and greater freedom to take or leave what I or anyone offers you.

I am 25 years old and I am suffering from social anxiety disorder. For those that don’t know, a person who has SAD is afraid of social situations of any kind from the most trivial like waiting at the queue at the grocery store to the more demanding like giving a speech. It might not sound that bad, but you have to believe me when I say to you that it can literally ruin your life as it has done in my case.

Yes, IT CERTAINLY CAN. Folks can end up imprisoned in their own houses for decades. Congrats on your DECISION to get on top of it before it buries you in a dreadful cacoon.

Even though I am 25, I haven’t managed to obtain any kind of higher education degree for the sole reason that every time I started something new I had to give up after a while because of the immense amount of stress and anxiety I had.

Zowie. Serious stuff.

OK. Without reading further to detect the answer . . . HOW SERIOUSLY ARE YOU DETERMINED TO GET BETTER? WHAT PRICE IN EFFORT AND RISK ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY?

Bite sized chunks of progress are ESSENTIAL.

I have taught about 3,500-4,000 students the last 30+ years. Probably 5% of Americans and 20% of Chinese have had some degree of serious shyness, SAD etc.

The Chinese classes of 70 students were too large to insure that such students all got greatly better. Virtually all of them got better just in the incidental ways I ran my classes. Some of them got a lot better. Many skated by with minimal progress.

Probably 90% of the shy etc. American students got markedly better. The other 10% got significantly better. All this just in the process of my teaching my class in my normal style and REQUIRING THEM to make incremental bite-sized steps of progress over the whole of the semester. I say all that to try and generate some faith in you that just maybe, I might be able to help you--IF--you will invest your effort.

For most people, attending classes and hanging out with their classmates is an enjoyable thing to do, but not for me. Likewise, I have never had any romantic relationship and in general I haven’t really had those experiences that most people have during their young adulthood. I have missed many things, but I do try to comfort myself telling him that suffering from social phobia has also been an invaluable experience in my life, a lesson which taught me to appreciate all those things that because of SAD I cannot enjoy which extend far beyond the material ones.

OK. Please . . . if you are willing . . .

1. List for me 7-12 things that go from the EASIEST sort of social thing you can do to the 7-12th hardest social thing for you.

2. List for me 3 things you'd MOST LIKE to be able to do first in your progress toward wholeness and FREEDOM.

3. List for me 3-5 things you have some keen, passionate, special, intense interest in--any 3-5 things.

4. Tell me something about your home situation.

5. Tell me something about all the 5-7 people you are most comfortable around in any degree or sense of the word at all, whatsoever, and in what context.

6. Tell me what your favorite movies and novels are.

7. Tell me what you tend to fantasize about . . . not sexually . . . about life, about relationships, about FREEDOM.

8. Tell me 3-5 things you ENJOY about your prison.

9. Tell me 3 things you'd love to do if you ABSOLUTELY KNEW YOU COULD NOT FAIL at them.

10. Tell me 7-12 things you like about yourself.

I'm running out of characters. Happens to me a lot lately. LOL.

Originally posted by Alexander1111

WARNING . . . I PLAY FOR KEEPS. I'M SERIOUS ABOUT HELPING YOU GET BETTER.

IF YOU WILL EARNESTLY TRY EVEN 60-70% OF WHAT I SUGGEST YOU TRY, YOU WILL MOST LIKELY GET SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER.

I WILL LIKELY PUSH YOUR BUTTONS. I will tend to be intense and more than a little confrontive.

If that puts you off, lay it aside and come back to it when you feel more up to it.

Everything I write to you is out of a heart full of caring. I only want you to have FREEDOM and a better life.

Everything I offer you is merely an opportunity for growth and FREEDOM. It is not per se a command performance that you !MUST! do . . . regardless of how insistent I sound. It is an OPPORTUNITY. You can take it or leave it.

You can take or leave every bit of it.

Social phobia really started affecting me when I was 12 to 14 years old.

What happened in your life in the days and 6 months prior to that point? Please be as candid as fitting and possible.

Prior to that, I was a happy human being.

B1. Please describe 5-7 of your favorite activities then as a happy human being.

B2. Please list 3-5 of the people you were happiest with as a happy human being.

From that point on however, my life has generally been miserable with some sparse moments of relative happiness.

B3. Please list 5 of those sparse moments of relative happiness. Describe them as vividly and with as much detail as is fitting and possible.

During the last 10 years, the stress has accumulated and has now reached a point where I cannot handle it anymore.

[color=99CCFF]!!!!!!!!YEA!!!!!!!!
[color=99CCFF]THAT
[color=99CCFF]CAN
[color=99CCFF]MAKE
[color=99CCFF]LETTING IT ALL GO
[color=99CCFF]LOTS
[color=99CCFF]EASIER
[color=99CCFF]AND QUICKER

However, I'm a little skeptical.

Are you REALLLLLLLLLLLY SURE, YOU WANT FREEDOM?

Hasn't your little prison become a bit comfortable and . . . . so comfortingly familiar?

Should I really invest my time and energy in helping you?

Or are you going to work to maintain a death grip on every bar of your prison?

Are you going to work hard to gain your FREEDOM?

Or are you going to obsessively and compulsively fondle the bars of your prison?

The choice is yours.

It's not exactly easy. It won't likely happen overnight . . . though great leaps toward FREEDOM COULD occur literally overnight. Nothing stopping that. SOME switches in your brain could click toward FREEDOM fairly quickly if not instantly. COULD.

B4. What are 4 ways you get paid to stay in PRISON? Oh, yes there are such ways. What are they?

During all these years, sleeping has more or less been a torture. Because of all the stress I am having during the day, when I go to sleep at night, all this tension which has accumulated during the day is felt in my body as a burden in my chest and my abdomen and because I cannot do anything about it, it expresses itself in the form of panic attacks.

I'm not surprised.

However, PLEASE LAY ASIDE AND STOP USING ENTIRELY THE WORD "cannot."

Please do not use it for the next 120 days.

Please use instead:


[color=99CCFF]"I haven't yet learned how to..."



or better,


[color=99CCFF]"I haven't yet chosen sufficiently strongly to..."

For the first 3 or 4 years, when I had panic attacks I thought something supernatural took place which resulted in my being totally afraid of going to sleep.

Even 'supernatural elements' can be overcome. Probably that's not the biggy in your life, if involved, at all.

Fortunately, as I got a bit older and around the age of 19 I managed to rationalize the situation and to at least overcome my fear of sleeping (till then I couldn’t sleep without the lights on and before 3 or 4 am). Nocturnal panic attacks didn’t stop happening however, because SAD was still there as well as all the stress because of it.

PLEASE look up 3-5 good 3-12 page articles on the net about PANIC ATTACKS. Read them. Summarize them in 3 paragraphs each. Tell me what you got out of each of them. Tell me which of their suggestions you are determined to practice.

Look up 3 articles on relaxation techniques. Tell me which 1 or 2 you are willing to practice for 4 weeks.

How you respond will help me understand whether you want to get better MORE or LESS than I want you to get better and FREE.

It will only work if you INTENSELY WANT FREEDOM.

Otherwise, if you are not DETERMINED TO OVERCOME,

you can 'enjoy' your misery for decades and no one can help you.

BTW, with respect for psychiatry in general to a point . . . for some things . . . I fiercely suggest you get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, . . . 12th opinion . . . /sarc

Was going to continue responding to your first post. . . . however, I've loaded you up with a lot. I think I'll wait and see if you WANT me to continue responding to you and your situation.
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edit on 17/3/2012 by BO XIAN because: fix color parameters

edit on 17/3/2012 by BO XIAN because: an addition

reply to post by Zatox

I would also recommend CBT (Cognitive behavioral therapy) it will help you so much along with meditation, listen to nice relaxing music and just let your mind fly.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

In many respects, if he just did what your post suggested . . . in bite sized, increasing chunks . . . increasing in frequency and in daring . . .

he could be into FREEDOM within 30-120 days.

reply to post by polarwarrior

And lastly just try a change in attitude, I just started not giving a damn, I was sick of always living in fear and had just had enough of it, I just didn't care anymore if I died tomorrow, at that point death didn't sound like such a bad thing. When your not afraid of death, what else is there to be afraid of? Then in the weeks to come the panic attacks become few and far between. I had accepted them and no longer feared them.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

That fear of what others think stuff is deadly.

If he just did what you suggest in that paragraph, he could be FREE in 30 days or even a week or so.

Let's put it this way, OP,

1. What's the worst thing that could happen in the line at Walmart?

2. So, people would laugh at you. So? Would that melt you? Would it cause an arm to fall off?

Would it cause a leg to fall off?

Would it cause your head to go rolling down the aisle?

So, someone laughs at you--you brought laughter to their life. Good for you.

3. So, someone frowns at you. Their problem. Let em trip over their lip.

4. Sooooooo Someone think's you're a worthless luke warm pile of puke.

Their problem.

You might profit from the ATTACHMENT DISORDER THREAD I started here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hiding in a shrinking hole will never fill the ATTACHMENT DISORDER holes that Daddy never filled.

That takes work--within and WITH PEOPLE IN

. . . RELATIONSHIPS . . .

MEANINGFUL AFFIRMING

RELATIONSHIPS.

reply to post by Alexander1111


Motivation can be a challenge.

Perhaps it will help you to visualize . . .

Please sit comfortably and visualize the following . . .

1. You have finished rewiring your brain . . . e.g. with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy etc. . . . and you are now socializing in venues of your choosing with quality people you respect and care for and who respect and care for you.

2. You're beginning to form a romantic relationship and you have a job and your self worth is escalating rapidly.

3. You actually have fun with a variety of interesting people.

STOP.

SHIFT.

ERASE.

Now, imagine . . .

1. You move every month or two into a smaller and smaller room.

2. And every month, some big truck comes and dumps a huge load of liquidized pig poo into the basement room with you. You almost have to swim in it. But that's not enough. You rub it in your hair and savor the 'aroma' and lie to yourself about how comfortingly familiar the pig poo is. Not even nice dry horse biscuits or cowpies--liquid pig poo.


[color=99CCFF]WHICH WAY DO YOU WANT TO LIVE?
[color=99CCFF]WHICH WAY DO YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE?
[color=99CCFF]FROM TODAY FORWARD?

Here's a series of audios worth your listening to . . .

Dr Banks is quite humorous though the talk was given more than 40 years ago. He was head of New York's Mental Hospital.

By Dr Murray Banks:

Part 1

www.youtube.com...

Part 2

www.youtube.com...

Part 3

www.youtube.com...

Part 4
www.youtube.com...

Part 5
www.youtube.com...

Part 6
www.youtube.com...


Part 7
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Alexander1111


Back to motivation . . .

It can help to focus persistently on your goal of FREEDOM

and contrast it . . . with a shrinking, increasingly miserable prison.

Focus on the kinds of relationships you'd like . . . and persist in taking bite sized steps toward them . . . and toward becoming increasingly the kind of person others will enjoy being around.

reply to post by Alexander1111


I am a person who is concerned with every tiny detail of how he looks and how others perceive him, so not giving a damn would certainly help, but it is so difficult to change attitude because in reality you are trying to change the way your brain is wired. Faking it, might be a good start


Ahhhhhhhhhhh . . . the following assignment . . . should you choose to accept it . . . cue MISSION imPOSSIBLE THEME . . .

Is to put on a white shirt. Go to a thrift store to get one if need be.

Get some blackberry jam.

Smear about a 2-4 square inch area with the jam--chest nipples high or higher. Wipe the worst of it off.

Go to McDonald's and have a meal. Play solitaire at the table--at least 3 games.

If you look up or look at anyone looking in your direction, smile sweetly and wink at them.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES EXPLAIN THE JAM on your shirt.

If someone says oh, you have jam on your shirt--say something like

"Wow, what a good insight! Congrats on your discernment and detective skills! Thanks!" And smile maybe a goofy smile.

Or

"That's very observant. Thanks for letting me know."

If someone says "Why do you have jam on your shirt?"

You could say something like.

"Because it missed the bread!" and smile sweetly.

If they persist . . . you might add . . .

"Because my breast felt like bread today." Then looks slightly crazy eyed.

[laughing inwardly]

If they're really obtuse and still persist . . . you could say something like

"Because you weren't there so I could put it on your bread."

or

"I saw it flying around the mall looking for your shirt but you weren't there so it landed on mine."

NO serious explanation allowed.
You probably have a dozen voices screaming in your head about NO WAY! Ignore them.

JUST DO IT.

You could be 85-95% over your caring about what others think of your dress if you'd just determine to do the above and follow through on it to the letter.

If you need a refresher course, do it at a more fancy restaurant the next time and with a relative.

SERIOUSLY

VERY SERIOUSLY.

Serious enough to do it and laugh the whole time at the inside joke on everyone else in the room.


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reply to post by Alexander1111

Sorry for the delay.

You are right that I am deeply sensitive of what is happening around. I seem to absorb all tension like a sponge and replace it with my energy.

Another gift. Some would call that...

"empathic"

Not saying that is your thing or not, that is for you to decide. You may find some traits that lead you to those moments of "anxiety". You seem aware of it as a problem. Maybe being aware of others pain is a kinda "painful" gift? I know the state of the world right now bothers me sometimes. I feel some of the pain because I care for what others might be going thru. Also animals. I love animals and hate to see them suffer. I don't understand anger and cruelty. That is the better part of my nature. And if I cry about it suddenly, that is not a panic attack, that is a healthy release of those pent up emotions.

reply to post by Alexander1111



As a psychologist, I'm not supposed to have an opinion about meds . . . sort of . . .

Personally, I think meds are at best optional in your case.

If you are DETERMINED to wallow in the misery--use the meds.

If you are DETERMINED to get FREE, you won't need them.

Maybe they do give some folks some emotional space to get more free of the symptoms. Then you have to get free of the meds.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has been documented to be better than meds and longer lasting without side effects.

Rewiring the stinkin thinkin does not require meds.

It requires work.

Originally posted by Alexander1111
reply to post by The GUT

 

Being more assertive, however, increases the chances of confrontation which I utterly dislike. I am the type of person who will let everything "hurled" at him hit him without retaliating. It is certainly very Christian, but sometimes I wonder if such an attitude is spiritual in nature or a product of my lack of self-confidence.

There was also a time when the town fathers tried to sneak St Paul out of prison out the back door in the middle of the night. He said, nothing doing. You'll come yourselves in the daylight and let me out the front door. And they did.

There is a time to submit and a time to fight.

There is a time to stand up and a time to be quiet.

There is a time to assert yourself, your rights and a time to be self effacing in behalf of wisdom or survival.

In your case . . . stand up . . .

or let life and the enemy of your soul crush you. There's no spiritual benefit in that. There's no any kind of benefit in that.

It is NOT an ALL or NOTHING issue.

There's a thousand points on the continuum between utterly passive to a screaming meemy storm trooper. Choose the point and the manner of assertiveness or defense or even aggressiveness that's proper to the situation; to your personality and to your goal.

Originally posted by The GUT
So, I literally pray I'm not wrong here, but go ahead and assert yourself when your soul tells you that you are right...and work out any mistakes later. You might be surprised at the respect you get back even amongst any resulting turmoil. If you have to take one on the chin--either literally or figuratively--make up your mind that you will be a hard-head and darn the consequences. Do that and watch the world change. Word.

Dude; I'm not easily impressed, but I really can tell you have a LOT going for you. I'd be drawn to you in person and know I'd found a rare person to be conversant with. Just about every person with any real depth has to suffer the shallowness of the majority of the world.

One way I hope I've kept the balance is by picking my battles carefully. Meaning that I tried--and still try--to work on my confidence by addressing the bullies in life...and online lol.

When your heart--and I can sense it is a truly good one--tells you to be brave and/or assert yourself--go for it and don't look back. Once I found out that I could "compete" life totally changed for me.

Whether it means anything or not...your obvious character and ability for introspection have already impressed me. Sic 'em, Alexander...and take any "flaming arrows" that come your way like the inner warrior you are!!

Well put.

Very astute observations.

Great input.

reply to post by Alexander1111



LOL.

You hadn't seen by that post what I've loaded on you in later posts! LOL.

Take your time . . . as you see fit.

Thx for the honor of your request.

I initially wasn't sure how soon I could get back to you so I said 72 hours.

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reply to post by Alexander1111


Alexander -

Let me be the last person on this forum to give you advice.

If you are serious, deep down, about getting better then you are far away from the right place to be getting help.

ATS????? Come on, really!!!!!! Maybe they can help your hemorrhoids too.

99% of the people who responded to you are wrong, though I think their hearts are in the right place.

My advice, if it's ok with you, if not, then stop reading now........

After 3 years with your Therapist and this is all the progress you've made? Pitiful. Either they are not helping you or you don't want to get better. Better is scary, you've never been better and you are better at being in bad shape.

Only you can fix you. Everything/Everybody else is just a tool in your tool box. With the help that is available to you, just like an Amish barn raising, build a better you.

And quit making excuses. If you think you are too sick to get better, then you are.

Someone on here gave you great advice about drugs. They are a tool in your toolbox to get you to a place where you can start helping yourself. They won't make you a zombie, but what is so bad about that if they do? If they make you a zombie who can participate in his barn raising, how bad can that be? Can it be worse than what you are going through now? At least it's something different. Be the best zombie you can be.

The right drugs for your condition won't turn you into a zombie, just help you to help yourself. Just like in medical body healing, the good doctors try to create a space where your own natural healing abilities can kick in. A doctor never made any one better, they just facilitated the body/mind's own healing mechanism.

I am currently being helped by NAMI.org. A non-profit organization. Their resources to help you are amazing, so much just waiting for you to take advantage of. Follow the link to the national website and use it to find your local chapter. They can help you with any issue you can think of, including finding you helpful support groups, free classes and best of all, find you better therapists and medications.

That's the best I can do for you brother. Make one phone call or one email and the ball is rolling to someplace new rather than the stagnation you've been living. Change is life, stagnation is death. Look out a window and you can see what I say is true.

PS - your doctor is a putz for telling you just to live with it. Tell him I said so and give him my email address.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by Alexander1111

 

You are so completely misguided you remind me of Obama. I am not surprised you are supposedly a psycologist.

If that's what you really are.

Give me your information so I can look up your credentials and then turn you in to the board for giving medical advice online to someone who is not your patient.

You remind me of those religious nutcases who let their children die, by putting them into god's hands and won't allow any outside medical intervention.

Keep your so-called medical hands off Alexander and go troll some other website, like WrongDianosis.com forums and tell them to get better without medicine.

Originally posted by Skylonda
reply to post by Alexander1111

 

Alexander -

Let me be the last person on this forum to give you advice.

If you are serious, deep down, about getting better then you are far away from the right place to be getting help.


Depends. A diversity of people can give a great wealth of input. Discernment is certainly needed.

ATS????? Come on, really!!!!!! Maybe they can help your hemorrhoids too.

Naw, ATS GIVES hemorrhoids . . . hopefully, at least, to globalists. LOL.

99% of the people who responded to you are wrong, though I think their hearts are in the right place.

Actually, I think the respondents on this thread have done well above that so far. And, there's a LOT of caring heart--which doesn't hurt.

After 3 years with your Therapist and this is all the progress you've made? Pitiful. Either they are not helping you or you don't want to get better. Better is scary, you've never been better and you are better at being in bad shape.

I believe you are EXACTLY and thoroughly right about the psychiatrist.

I believe our ATS buddy is significantly serious about getting better. Whether he's SERIOUS ENOUGH remains to be seen.

Only you can fix you. Everything/Everybody else is just a tool in your tool box. With the help that is available to you, just like an Amish barn raising, build a better you.

GREAT METAPHOR. Gotta remember that one.

And quit making excuses. If you think you are too sick to get better, then you are.

Wonderful exhortation . . . though I'd probably put it . . . ' . . . then you'll make yourself fit that script.'

Someone on here gave you great advice about drugs. They are a tool in your toolbox to get you to a place where you can start helping yourself. They won't make you a zombie, but what is so bad about that if they do? If they make you a zombie who can participate in his barn raising, how bad can that be? Can it be worse than what you are going through now? At least it's something different. Be the best zombie you can be.

Good points. I just don't think they are NECESSARY. LIke you said above--if he decides they are necessary, then he makes them necessary with that decision.

The right drugs for your condition won't turn you into a zombie, just help you to help yourself. Just like in medical body healing, the good doctors try to create a space where your own natural healing abilities can kick in. A doctor never made any one better, they just facilitated the body/mind's own healing mechanism.

Depends. Most of the psychoactive drugs are horrible in terms of side effects and just the whole mentality that goes with them. I've shifted in the last 30+ years to not supporting them except in a small minority of cases.

And in terms of depression, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has been proven with good research to be better--MORE EFFECTIVE; MORE LASTINGLY EFFECTIVE--AS IN THE REST OF ONE'S LIFE--AND WITH NO SIDE EFFECTS.

PS - your doctor is a putz for telling you just to live with it. Tell him I said so and give him my email address.

Love it.

LOL.

reply to post by Skylonda


I gather you're not very up on the research on the complications and side effects of so many of the psychoactive drugs.

I forget all the other indictments against 'modern' psychoactive drugs. I just recall that when I read even a fraction of the more recent study summaries, I was aghast and changed my convictions on the matter 180 degrees wholesale.

The seriously increased risk of suicide for a number of such drugs is hideous. All the more so when the MD's don't caution and monitor their patients as well as insure that their family members are alerted . . . and they don't monitor their patients near closely enough on such scores.

Certainly there are cases where they seem to be indicated and certainly a psychiatrist is the proper one to make that evaluation.

However, it is also fitting to caution folks to check out the research. And particularly in cases of depression as well as anxiety . . . Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is just better for most folks in a list of ways.

That's just the facts.

However, you seem to enjoy spewing so be my guest.

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reply to post by BO XIAN


Bo -

Thank you very much for your appreciation of my first post. That was very generous of you. I am afraid of going out on a limb like that and saying the wrong thing. I can only hope my gut instinct steered me correctly. Star.

Your second post sounded fairly irritated with me. I would be irritated at me too, if I were you. But your post came across with more of a CYA smell to it rather than a refutation of my points against you. I feel for sure you must really be a psychologist after that exercise in ass covering.

The thing is, I don't disagree with you as much as you think I do. I just dislike your liberal diatribe, to the wrong person, of their effectiveness when used properly in the right situation.

Surely you are intelligent enough to know that every single thing we encounter on this earth has negative side effects, but also positive effects if used and treated properly. Surely you know everything can be abused. Or maybe not, you are just a psychologist, not a real doctor/psychiatrist and cannot prescribe any kind of drug at all.

Could that be shaping your opinions?

What can be more natural than our Sun and it's light? Yet too much of it can burn you as far as to death, can blind you, can cause skin cancer, is dangerous to albinos. Pizza tastes good, but can cause heartburn and cause you to gain weight. That's bad. Chocolate can cause you to gain as well, but makes you feel good. Natural milk can make you fart.....and worse. Peanuts make a wonderful butter spread, but can cause some people to swell up and die. That old boogey man marijuana can make you high and get you in trouble. But for cancer patients, the side effects give them the munchies and eases their nausea and pain.

And surely you don't advocate a person not use anesthetic drugs during surgery. They are quite dangerous. Their side effects can kill you right on the operating table. Surgery itself is dangerous and can kill you. Doctors are the number one cause of death if you would actually like to quote me some real statistics.

You know the side effect risks, psychologist, are minimal at best for suicide and the laundry list of possible negative effects that come with every drug. Even more so for the older, proven and cheaper pysch drugs.

Go ahead - quote me some real statistics and I will forward them to the FDA and the AMA and President Obama too for good measure. Maybe some other psychologists as well. I will give you all the credit for saving America from this disastrous fate.

So still I call you out.

I'm not spewing, I just am passionate.

Stay away from Alexander.

reply to post by Skylonda


Don't mind you being passionate.

Don't know if or when I'll get to the studies on the side effects and effectiveness stuff.

In my experience, trying to help folks through stuff like SAD etc.

is tons more difficult and enormously longer WITH drugs ON AVERAGE, than without them.

I still do see some value for some drugs at limited dosage when some folks are soooo awash in dysfunction and intense emotionality that they have a 'terminally difficult' time focusing sufficiently on the tasks necessary to improve.

And, I have suggested many clients get evaluated by a psychiatrist in many situations strictly for such.

Toward the last of my formal counseling work in Asia, I did so very rarely.

[color=9999CC]I have met some psychiatrists who feel exactly as I do, BTW.

And, compared to other psychiatrists, the ones who MINIMIZED to rarely prescribed meds REALLY HELPED a LOT more people.

Then, of course, there's psychiatrist? I forget--Thomas Szaz--who thinks the whole profession is a stinking pile.

BTW, I have not insulted you and I have not earned your insults.

I also believe that Alexander is old enough to figure out whether he wants my inputs, or not. None of us are in his room twisting his arm--that I know of. LOL.

I have seen LOTS of folks largely unnecessarily on chemical straight-jackets . . . slightly to moderately managing as varying levels of zombies--for decades. They didn't like it one bit. Yet, were terrified to change the situation. They had grown accustomed to their straight-jacket. I think supporting that unfittingly is immoral.

And the fact that my classmates got 28 or so more hours than the UCSD psychiatrists in training got (2-3 hours for the whole of their training) on psychoactive drugs--is incredible, to me.

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