"Iron Dome"

In light of recent events in the Southern part of Israel.
en.wikipedia.org...

Iron Dome (Hebrew: כיפת ברזל‎) is a mobile air defense system[2] in development by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems[1] designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 to 70 kilometers away whose trajectory would take them to a populated area, in all weather conditions.[3][4]. The system, created as a defensive countermeasure to the rocket threat against Israel's civilian population on its northern and southern borders, uses technology first used in Rafael's SPYDER system. Iron Dome was declared operational and initially deployed on March 27, 2011 near Beersheba.[5] On April 7, 2011, the system successfully intercepted a Grad rocket launched from Gaza for the first time.[6] On 10 March 2012, the Jerusalem Post reported that the system shot down 90% of rockets launched from Gaza and fired at (rockets which will land in unpopulated areas are ignored).[4]

A couple of videos:
STRATFOR Dispatch: Israel's Iron Dome


And from the recent escalation this weekend, this video shows amazing maneuverability:


And a night shot:


Before "Iron Dome" was commissioned there was discussion about introducing "Nautilus" MTHEL (Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser) but for reason yet unexplained the IDF opted for the "Iron Dome" system at a fairly higher interceptor-to-target projectile price. (Reports at around 60,000-100,000 USD a shot for the Iron Dome rockets)
en.wikipedia.org...

Both "Nautilus" and "Iron dome" are a single layer from a multilayer Israeli anti-air defense system, coupled with the currently developed "Arrow" system which will grant a greater range of aerial defense against ICBMs,MRBMs and ABMs.

They certainly do have an impressive air defense in depth above Israel. I love the Iron Dome system. It looks like someone finally got it right for the 'holy grail' of defense. The ability to knock down small rockets and projectiles being lobbed in.

Now I hope for their sake that this isn't a case of getting what they've paid for in a world where everything goes to the lowest bidder. I recall near miraculous promises made for the first generation Patriot defense systems over Saudi Arabia in 1991. That didn't work for much more than destroying a British warplane by accident.

HOPEFULLY...We'll never see this play out to learn how effective the systems will be in actual combat.

As someone who lives in Israel (not in the Palestinians missiles range) it makes me feel more secured but ashamed to live in a world that reached a point when they spend thousands of dollars for every iron dome missile fired for security purposes, it would have been much easier just to understand that this conflict doesn't bring nothing more than hatred, more violence and more money to both sides who are interested financially and egoistically to perpetuate that conflict.

We need to stop that # already, really. With spending all that money on other things other than wars, we can fulfill every human basic need on the planet, and then there's no reason to fight for. We the people need to fully acknowledge it that we live in completely different times, even compared to 30 years ago.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
They certainly do have an impressive air defense in depth above Israel. I love the Iron Dome system. It looks like someone finally got it right for the 'holy grail' of defense. The ability to knock down small rockets and projectiles being lobbed in.

Now I hope for their sake that this isn't a case of getting what they've paid for in a world where everything goes to the lowest bidder. I recall near miraculous promises made for the first generation Patriot defense systems over Saudi Arabia in 1991. That didn't work for much more than destroying a British warplane by accident.

HOPEFULLY...We'll never see this play out to learn how effective the systems will be in actual combat.

Don't forget that MOST of the US servicemen and women who died during Desert Storm were killed when a Patriot failed to completely destroy an incoming SCUD and the warhead hit a barracks; in that one attack.

Iron Dome IS impressive, but I understand that it will have a hard time shooting down rockets launched by truck mounted MLRS (Thanks NATO, for letting the terrorists steal these missiles from Libya.)

reply to post by OldCorp

Sadly, that was what had first come to mind. Were ANY SCUDs actually destroyed or were they all just diverted? I wasn't glued to the TV back then and my memory isn't perfect, but I don't recall seeing ones where an explosion didn't still happen. I also recall reading about Counter-Battery Radar and supposed automated systems in Vietnam...as well as how big a secret it was supposed to have been at the time that they didn't work.

Perhaps the Israeli's actually got it right this time between their latest version of Arrow and Iron Dome. It would be nice. Perhaps they can EXPORT a system for a change, and supply us with one that really does what it says it does. Assuming, of course, theirs does prove itself.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
...HOPEFULLY...We'll never see this play out to learn how effective the systems will be in actual combat.

Those last two videos ARE actual combat.
Figures show 80%-90% hit ratio for Iron Dome. Remember, not all incoming rockets are intercepted as the system plots their trajectories and determines weather or not they will hit populated/high risk areas.
Also, the MIM-104 "Patriot" is a SAM based platform which means heavier payload that equals less maneuverability and MUCH lower speeds, and lastly, "Iron Dome's" biggest advantage is that it uses Air-to-Air rockets with proximity detonation capability.
Here's a compression:

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OldCorp

 

Perhaps the Israeli's actually got it right this time between their latest version of Arrow and Iron Dome. It would be nice. Perhaps they can EXPORT a system for a change, and supply us with one that really does what it says it does. Assuming, of course, theirs does prove itself.

Uh, "export for a change"?
From a 2004 publication - The Israel High-Tech & Investment Report is an independent monthly insider newsletter.

Israel Accounts for 12% of World's Military Exports Israel military export sales of $2.5b.-$3.5 b. represent a 10%-12% share of the world's military-related production. According to Israel Defense Ministry Director General Amos Yaron total global military sales are estimated at $30b. . Yaron said that 80% of Israel's military production is now destined for overseas customers. The Israel Defense Forces was the prime customer in the past, purchasing some 80 to 90% of the local military production. This change in allocation can be attributed to the IDF's reduced demand for locally-produced military products. Israel also exports "surpluses" of weapons and tanks no longer in IDF service, worth some $125 million annually, Ben-Hanan said.

And a more recent one:
Israeli Defense Exports for 2010 Surpass $7.3 Billion Read more: www.defencetalk.com...

Some 80 percent of all Israeli defense production is sold on the export market. The country's export order totals have steadily grown, reaching $3.5 billion in 2005, $4.9 billion in 2006, $5.6 billion in 2007, and $6.6 billion in 2008. Read more: www.defencetalk.com...

reply to post by Gramlengo
Okay, now I wish I could flag your thread twice. Thank you for that spec sheet. I have not seen some of those numbers and frankly had a far more limited view of what the Iron Dome system was capable of. I thought I'd heard it talked about in terms of a very limited area defense system. At least that has been the impression I had from media here.

79,000 feet at Mach 5 and a maximum range of 240km downrange is impressive and at or right around the same specs as the S-300 PMU/1 units Syria has as the 'cutting edge' they can field. At least as I understand it. I've never really thought of Israel as challenged for defense systems, so didn't really look hard at capabilities there. That is an eye opener for what Iron Dome is capable of.

Oh and on Exporting... Please don't take offense, as none was meant. I mean the U.S. is always sending aid to Israel and selling things into the IDF with all possible hard sell and push, I'm sure. I know Israel has a very capable domestic arms industry, and I don't mind saying the U.S. could probably stand to BUY a bit more from Israel than it SELLS. I understand even some Arab units use Uzi's, as funny as I've found the controversy I've read about to be on that topic...as one example of quality of other considerations.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I think you got mixed up a little bit, those specs on the left are for the MIM-104 "Patriots", not the Iron Dome.
Most of the specs for I-D are classified, but just imaging that if a 1,500lbs projectile can reach mach-5, what can a 200lbs projectile reach, far far greater than mach-5.

Originally posted by Gramlengo
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I think you got mixed up a little bit, those specs on the left are for the MIM-104 "Patriots", not the Iron Dome.
Most of the specs for I-D are classified, but just imaging that if a 1,500lbs projectile can reach mach-5, what can a 200lbs projectile reach, far far greater than mach-5.

Okay, I'm not going crazy.... The way you worded that above the spec sheet had me really scratching my head and unsure..but I figured that had to be what you meant. My bad.... If I wasn't so brain fried right now from the mid-term stuff I'd have taken a few to look that up myself. Err.. My double bad. lol...

I do appreciate the local perspective though. I hadn't immediately noticed your mini-profile for location but it isn't often people from Israel say much or at least advertise the fact they're writing from there. It's nice to hear all sides, and this defense system is interesting to learn more about.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OldCorp

 

Sadly, that was what had first come to mind. Were ANY SCUDs actually destroyed or were they all just diverted? I wasn't glued to the TV back then and my memory isn't perfect, but I don't recall seeing ones where an explosion didn't still happen. I also recall reading about Counter-Battery Radar and supposed automated systems in Vietnam...as well as how big a secret it was supposed to have been at the time that they didn't work.

Perhaps the Israeli's actually got it right this time between their latest version of Arrow and Iron Dome. It would be nice. Perhaps they can EXPORT a system for a change, and supply us with one that really does what it says it does. Assuming, of course, theirs does prove itself.

We should have the Israelis install those laser defense systems on our aircraft. They have already nearly completed arming their own commercial airliners with them - at a cost of some 167 million dollars. Barbara Boxer wants to put them on our planes as well - for BILLIONS. (I wonder where all of that extra money goes?)

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

We can't deny ignorance if we falsify facts, I've got nothing to hide. True, its hard keeping an unbiased perspective on people or ideas if you feel they have a "personal agenda", which almost everyone would conclude based on someone's location, self included.
I am actually Christian by Jewish law, my grandfather from my mother's side was Jewish and her mother chrisitan so we were able to move to Israel, also he is a Holocaust survivor and was his wish to move here after the things hues been through. Because of that I usually don't take a "Jewish" stance on most issues, and am actually very doubtful on the idea of "God".
Also, I do agree that something in the Israeli government and policies has to change.

reply to post by Gramlengo

This is most interesting, as i wondered just if it was a refining of the old Patriot system. It seems efficient. To be honest, I'd be a basket case if I had to constantly live with those alarms going off.

Those interceptors follow the rocket and at some point decides whether to intercept or not depending on its destination. Have I got that right? So it's deployed and then it decides? If it goes up, it must come down, yes? Or does it just blow itself up?

reply to post by aboutface


No, the interceptor is fired from a separate platform, there is another platform with a discovery radar and a tracking radar. As most of it is classified (had some access to info on it while serving a couple of years ago) what is publicly known can be found on Wikipedia.

Iron Dome Radar and tracking system:


Iron Dome launch platform:



And some more info:

The system is designed to counter short-range rockets and 155 mm artillery shells with a range of up to 70 kilometers. According to its manufacturer, Iron Dome will operate day and night, under adverse weather conditions, and can respond to multiple threats simultaneously.[12] Iron Dome has three central components:[11][12] Detection & Tracking Radar: the radar system is built by Elta, an Israeli defense company Battle Management & Weapon Control (BMC): the control center is built by mPrest Systems, an Israeli software company, for Rafael Missile Firing Unit: the unit launches the Tamir interceptor missile, equipped with electro-optic sensors and several steering fins for high maneuverability. The missile is built by Rafael. The system's radar detects the rocket's launch and tracks its trajectory. Then, the BMC calculates the expected hit point according to the reported data, and uses this information to determine whether the target constitutes a threat to a designated area; only in this case an interceptor missile is fired to detonate the rocket before it reaches the expected impact area.[11]

reply to post by Gramlengo

Thanks for the explanation and clarity in throwing off the fog of my ignorance in such military matters. It appears to be an efficient system. All the best.

I heard this system is not useful for nothing but intercepting surface to surface/Ballistic missiles correct? It works great according to its job for the defense of Israels land then I would assume. I wonder if SeaRAm can be adapted to do a similiar job other than just on US ships. They are both similiar systems from what i gather. Does israel use Sidewinder missile tech like we do? I wonder because the SeaRam uses the next gen sidewinder missile to take down highly manuverable missiles. Can iron dome take out similiar missiles too?