Why in Judaism, there is no Devil

reply to post by Snoopy1978

If sin is not appropriate for us "kids" and "Godmommy" can sin as he pleases, then he's a hypocrite.

You got so hung up on the use of the word "mommy" that you completely missed the point:

God isn't human. His commandments are for humans. That's why in the analogy mommy isn't in the wrong. Her rules were made for the children, not herself.

Jeremiah 27 (Old Testament)

Thus says YHWH, the God of Israel, thus you shall say to your masters, 5“I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight. 6“Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and I have given him also the wild animals of the field to serve him. 7“All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant.


Luke 4 (New Testament)

1Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness 2for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. 3And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” 4And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.’”

5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7“Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.”

reply to post by 1nOne


Eliyahu (Elijah) in Aramaic means "My God is YHWH"

Yahshua (Jesus) in Hebrew means "YHWH saves"

reply to post by imherejusttoread


I'm a fellow christian,but one thing has always troubled me with the God / Devil relationship in the bible, and that is the book of Job. (a brief over view for those who might not have heard the story before,not for your good self, but not all members of ATC have read the Bible ). Job was a good man and and worshiped God and was fathful to him, a good man careful not to do evil. he was a also the father of 13 children and the richest man in the East and had a vast estate with servants and live stock.

Then one day God meets the Devil, who has had been walking the Earth, God points out Job to the Devil and tells him that there is no one more faithful or good as that man. The Devil then enquires would Job be as faithful if he didnt have all the things he did? if God took everything away would Job curse God to his face? God then tells the Devil that 'everything he has is in you power, but you must not hurt Job himself'.

Through out the rest of the story Jobs children, servants and shepherds are killed , his estate is lost and his live stock either stolen or butchered. Job himself suffers festering sores all over his body and basically has a rotten time for quite a while, but because he doesnt lose his faith in God he is rewarded with long life, new children and an even bigger estate with more live stock.

Now im not trying to bait you a fellow Christian, but why would God indulge the Devil with his quest to prove that Job would fall? lots of innocent people die in this story and a man of faith is nearly destroyed.

Like I wrote, i'm not trying to start a argument with a fellow Christian, but I would like to know your view on the this story.

reply to post by windsorblue


"Now im not trying to bait you a fellow Christian, but why would God indulge the Devil with his quest to prove that Job would fall? lots of innocent people die in this story and a man of faith is nearly destroyed."

Why was Adam created? To have dominion... And why did "the serpent" seek His fall? What was God proving to the devil by allowing him to test Job? THAT HE HAD MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE IN CREATING MAN.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16

reply to post by windsorblue

Now im not trying to bait you a fellow Christian, but why would God indulge the Devil with his quest to prove that Job would fall? lots of innocent people die in this story and a man of faith is nearly destroyed.

No one is innocent before the throne of God.

The information you provided in the OP is a bit confusled if you ask me.

Muslims do not believe the devil was an angel and fell out of grace. We believe he was created out of fire, whereas angels were created out of light. Angels were not given the ability to judge for themselves, they simply obeyed commands. While the creatures who were created out of fire, along side humans, were given free will.

The devil was simply one of those who's level was so high and mighty that he resided along side the angels.

But he was given free will, so once God created Adam, he got jealous and greedy from all the love Adam was getting.

According to Islamic theology, the devil can never be a force to reckon with God. He specifically asked God permission to lead humans astray until the Day fo Judgement, so he may take as many of them as he could to hell with him. And God simply gave him permission saying something around the lines of: try and lead them astray, I know the ones who believe in Me will not listen to you.

Theologically speaking, Jews and Muslims have the same understanding of the devils powers and exact position with relation to God. Muslims might just have more details to go on with.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by 1nOne

 

Eliyahu (Elijah) in Aramaic means "My God is YHWH"

Yahshua (Jesus) in Hebrew means "YHWH saves"

edit on 7-3-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The body was named Jesus of Nazareth.

Satan's chosen people murdered "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews", profanely advertising this to the world in three languages above the corpse. However, in doing so, they freed Immanuel from the bonds of flesh to take up His true form once again, in the Kingdom of Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."
Matthew 1:23 This is the name of Christ.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You claim Christ died on the cross, saying he laid down his life at that time for the sins of mankind.

Truly, if you were one with the Holy Spirit, you would know instead that He gave up His Life when He incarnated Himself into this world of death and sin as flesh. It was taken up again of His own volition when He returned to Spirit.

“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” John 10:17-18

deleted

reply to post by 1nOne

Satan's chosen people murdered "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews", profanely advertising this to the world in three languages above the corpse. However, in doing so, they freed Immanuel from the bonds of flesh to take up His true form once again, in the Kingdom of Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

LOL!!! I can't believe you brought this up. Do you know exactly WHY the Pharisees were so raging pissed that the sign read: "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" It's because when it's written in Hebrew it forms an acrostic:

Yeshua HaNazarei wMelech HaYehudim = "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews"


Can't you see why the Pharisees were so pissed and demanded Pilate re-word the sign? No? Okay, well let me give you a nugget:


Yeshua HaNazarei wMelech HaYehudim.

reply to post by 1nOne

You claim Christ died on the cross, saying he laid down his life at that time for the sins of mankind.

Yes I claim that, only because Jesus first did:


"for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:28

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
LOL!!! I can't believe you brought this up. Do you know exactly WHY the Pharisees were so raging pissed that the sign read: "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" It's because when it's written in Hebrew it forms an acrostic:

Yeshua HaNazarei wMelech HaYehudim = "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews"

Can't you see why the Pharisees were so pissed and demanded Pilate re-word the sign? No? Okay, well let me give you a nugget:

Yeshua HaNazarei wMelech HaYehudim.

edit on 8-3-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Even the Jews recognized Jesus was not of YHWH:

Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."
"We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from."
John 9:16,29

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Fall of Lucifer (YHWH):

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!" Isaiah 14:12

The Fallen were removed from Heaven, exiled into darkness:

"And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6

YHWH (Satan), together with his army of the Fallen, moved over the surface of the deep:

"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. " Genesis 1:2

"Then God ("YHWH", author's quote) said, 'Let Us (the Fallen) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" Genesis 1:26

This was the true cause of Original Sin. Man was born into a fallen world. We are the earthly result of Satan's fall from Grace. Though we are borne into sin, we are not the cause of it: for in the Fall of Man, sins are forgiven. Curiously, in Judaism, there is no mention of the Fall of Man and Original Sin.

Now, in this light, the Parable of the Prodigal Son makes perfect sense:

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’

NOTurTypical,

If he/she/it is to be respected, then god must lead by example. A butchering god that condones rape, pillaging and enslavement of the innocent (amongst other things) is not a symbol of love by a long shot. Have you even read the bible or do you just belch out the "interpretations" your pastor brainwashes you with?

Originally posted by windsorblue
reply to post by imherejusttoread
Now im not trying to bait you a fellow Christian, but why would God indulge the Devil with his quest to prove that Job would fall? lots of innocent people die in this story and a man of faith is nearly destroyed.

Like I wrote, i'm not trying to start a argument with a fellow Christian, but I would like to know your view on the this story.

I'm of the opinion that Job is a metaphorical book, and instead of conveying a story in history it conveys a story with a moral, and that moral is perseverence in the face of opposition/despair.

But I should make a note about my interpretation of Scripture: when I read the Bible, the first principle that I keep in mind is this, is this a tautological description to further understand our spiritual evolution, or is this a prescriptive lesson that I can apply to contribute/conform to this spiritual ideal, which I believe culminated in the example/blueprint of Christ?

An example is this: in the first chapters of Genesis, we see Adam and Eve put into a position where obedience is contrary to what God wants/intends (he wants to make man in his image, which, as Scripture states, is to know good and evil, which is attained by eating from the tree of knowledge), why is that? Because it's a description to demonstrate the evolutionary progress of our being made into the image of God. This is a similar device that Satan/devil is used, he's not a literal rigid body, rather he's an obstacle we must overcome with love and knowledge. Every victory with love and knowledge is Satan/devil's defeat.

I believe when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, their eyes were opened and they became rational/spiritual beings, and this was in fulfillment of what God had wanted. I also believe [to extend this interpretation] that when God brought all the animals to Adam to see what he would name them is not literal, rather it was to demonstrate the raising up of man's place in creation.

Does that make sense to you?

Originally posted by 1nOne
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Fall of Lucifer (YHWH):

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!" Isaiah 14:12

The Fallen were removed from Heaven, exiled into darkness:

"And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6

YHWH (Satan), together with his army of the Fallen, moved over the surface of the deep:

"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. " Genesis 1:2

"Then God ("YHWH", author's quote) said, 'Let Us (the Fallen) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" Genesis 1:26

This was the true cause of Original Sin. Man was born into a fallen world. We are the earthly result of Satan's fall from Grace. Though we are borne into sin, we are not the cause of it: for in the Fall of Man, sins are forgiven. Curiously, in Judaism, there is no mention of the Fall of Man and Original Sin.

Now, in this light, the Parable of the Prodigal Son makes perfect sense:

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’

Again, what does Eliyahu (Elijah) mean in Aramaic??

What does Yeshua (Jesus) mean in Hebrew?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You have been told but you do not hear. It has been shown yet you do not see.

Invite the indwelling Holy Spirit to give you guidance in answering these questions for yourself.

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
NOTurTypical,

If he/she/it is to be respected, then god must lead by example.

He did, He came from heaven to show us a perfect example to follow. And He showed us that the greatest among us in the one who lobes, sacrifices for, and serves everyone else. And if you want to understand most of the OT and why God did certain things read the beginning of chapter 6 of Genesis.

A butchering god

What did God "butcher"?

that condones rape

Please tell me where God say "I love rape, go rape the heathen."

pillaging

WOW, God "pillaged" too in the Bible, what book, chapter and verse? You're correct, I've never heard that before.

and enslavement of the innocent (amongst other things)

When did God "enslave" any people? We are given free will, we can rebel and reject God every day of our lives if we so choose to do so.

is not a symbol of love by a long shot.

Okay, well you're in a free nation, no biggie. Christianity isn't Islam man, we won't cut your head off if you don't worship Jesus.

Have you even read the bible or do you just belch out the "interpretations" your pastor brainwashes you with?

So far it seems to me you've never read the Bible yourself. You bring up things in a cherry-picked way about God, and refuse to look at the context of WHY God did things a certain way.

Originally posted by 1nOne
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You have been told but you do not hear.

No, I asked 3 times now. I already know the answer.

It has been shown yet you do not see.

I do not see your lies, you've refused to answer the question because you have no answer. Eliyahu in Aramaic is: "My God is YHWH"

Invite the indwelling Holy Spirit to give you guidance in answering these questions for yourself.

Dude, if you think the "LORD" every time it's used in the OT speaks of Lucifer you're insane. the Jews replaced the name of God (YHWH) with "Adonai" (Lord) out of reverence for His sacred name. Anytime your English Bible says "LORD" in all caps in the OT, the Hebrew text says "YHWH".

I don't think it's even humanly possible to be more wrong about this, you're in essence calling God "lucifer".