The Quran is the verbatim word of ...

1. There are various institutions that offer classes to learn quranic arabic. I think most if not all the people that take the classes are muslims. After these muslims go from not knowing arabic to learning arabic and being able to read quran in its original language they still remain muslim. Why do you think this is so? If we believe or know quran is not word of god, why do these people after being able to read their holy book in classical arabic, why do they still remain muslims? Do they not see the barbaric nonsense in the book if any?

2. Why do you think that muslim sheiks and imams would tell people to learn quranic arabic, if they know that quran is not the word of God? arent they afraid that when they learn the language that people will leave Islam? or are these muslim leaders holding all the cards and know quran is indeed word of god?

3. Either muslims are ignorant, or were ignorant . Either this book is word of god or its not. How can some people mistake a barbaric book with the verbatim word of god? OR how can some people mistake the word of the creator of the heavens and the earth with a barbaric book?

4. The quran has a challenge test, saying that if no one can produce a surah like it, then they should accept it as it being the word of god and be muslim, what do you think this challenge means? What do you think it consists of?

5. The Quran asks mankind, you gota keep in mind that muslims believe it is God speaking here, God asks, did you come out of nothing or did you create yourself? How would you answer this.

6. Many muslims talk about the various miracles in quran, like angels and devils are mentioned the same amount of time, quran has science facts unknown at that time and linguistic miracles, is this all one big lie?

First of all ,I think the Quran must be read together with the corresponding hadith to understand what is the real meaning(iirc I read it from somewhere )without which I THINK it could be misinterpreted and even dangerous ,please note that I am not a muslim and not very sure about this .A bit busy right now but I will try to track this topic.



Peace~~

Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

hi op

to sum it up
most of the sheep cant even read
they rely on others to preach to them
thats why they believe whats told to them
this is one bull belief that will be the falling of
Great Britain
and America
i hate all religions why
because its an ideology
dave

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


I'm sorry but even those counts assume that this book has been accurately translated and hasn't been intentionally altered in any way. If you spend enough time trying you can fabricate all sorts of relationships between mundane figures and paint any kind of picture you like.

reply to post by 0thetrooth0


There is no book written by god, All books that claim to be the word of god have been written BY A MAN. Not to say that these books can have great insight or reason but still written BY A MAN. All words once captured on paper can then be manipulated to suit any political need. Spirituality has always been and should remain a personal conversation between one man and his own belief of god or one woman and her god respectively. Organized religion is just brainwashing so that you go with the flow and feel a sense of belonging, even though every single person really has no idea what the truth actually is. So to say any book is the absolute word of god is a falsehood.

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

Sheikhs and imams tell people that indeed it can be proven. There are loads of miracles in Quran, whther they are true or not is a another story. Theres science, linguistic, mathematical miracles like in the video Quantum posted, based on those miracles people take it as being proof for Quran being the word of God. Theres also the "produce a surah like it challenge", if someone can convincinly produce a surah like it, the whole foundation of Islam would fall and therefore prove that its not the word of God. But unfortunately, we would have to learn classical Arabic to attempt to produce a surah like it. If you know anything about classical Arabic you know its one very complex language. Maybe they make it more difficult to learn than it already is. I think it is possible to prove a book and be able to demonstrate why it is or its not the word of God or at least be pretty sure. I think God would not only tell stories of miracles performed in the past, but would produce a miracle that would last forever as muslims would say. Muhammad or so were told, came with a miracle that you can look into. It is disturbing and confusing, that the only way for us to be 100% sure its miraculous we would have to be an expert in classical Arabic. I recommend everyone go on youtube and listen to Quran being recited in Arabic, see if it touches your heart or something. I agree on the odds statement. I want to be sure though if it is or its not.

The Quran is a remarkable book but in my opinion thats it, remarkable not divine.

When I first moved to Malaysia I made friends with a guy who sold nuts at the night market outside my hotel, every night I when for a walk I would always buy some nuts and sit down for a chat with him. Apart from selling nuts he also distributed books for the Islamic propagation society and I got many an interesting read from him over the months.

I learnt alot about Islam from him and those books.

What disturbed me though was his was how narrow his world was, he spouted all the stuff you have in your post, Its the word of god, no one could write something like it, it knew scientific things that were impossible to know at the time etc etc

At first I was somewhat impressed but after some thought its not that unique
I doubt anyone could emulate Shakespeare well but does that make him divine? And what is meant by "write a book like this" Maybe Im missing something in the english translation but I didnt think it was even that well written.
The example Ive heard from the Quran about advanced scientific knowledge had to do with bees and knowing their sex, while thats pretty cool they knew what about the Dogon who knew about a twin star system at least hundreds of years before we had telescopes to prove it or the Mayans who calculated the exact time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun and on its axis to an acuuracy of seconds without computers, alot more signaificant and special in my opinion.

If Muslims opened their mind a bit they would see their book while special and inspiring is not unique and does not have a monopoly on anyhing let alone knowledge or divinity

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

I am a bit busy I will explain next time

@Others
merapakistan.freevar.com...
Most impressive "miracle"/miracle I saw.

Here are some links that you can review that might help you make a determination:

Criticism of the Qu'ran: en.wikipedia.org...

Criticism of Muhammad: en.wikipedia.org...

"Is There a Mathematical Miracle in the Qu'ran?"

www.islamreview.com...

3. In spite of all that, a quick look regarding what you said concerning the mathematical miracle of Quran, makes us doubt its scientific credibility. From the very beginning many mistakes, contradictions, and making ups are noticed, among which are the following:

Starting with #3 inside the link will list the contradictions to the mathematical miracle theory.

Secondly, Muhammad admitted that he could not perform miracles himself and that there was no need for him to do so.

As for the Sura Challenge:

Thus, a man took on the challenge of Quran that says that no one can ever come up with a like it. He invented four of high resemblance to the style and wording of the Quran and called it "Sura like it", and he published it on one of the "America On line" sites known as 'AOL'. He called himself "the challenger", so that his personality remains unknown to remain safe from the violence of Muslims.

The most important point is that this man invented these , to draw the attention of Muslims to the fact that we cannot count on the existing challenge in the Quran to prove its credibility. And due to the great resemblance between these four and the style of the Quran, all Muslims revolted violently because they could not expect such a great resemblance. Even revolted, and being the oldest and greatest Islamic official and international institute, took the responsibility of suing 'The Challenger'. And since his identity was not known, could only sue the publishing company AOL.

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

I am a bit busy I will explain next time

@Others
merapakistan.freevar.com...
Most impressive "miracle"/miracle I saw.

I've seen more impressive stuff. By the way, the word scientific is mispelled so that link loses some credubility. I've been to a Marian apparition where there are a variety of unexplained/supernatural photos. Some of them is some camera effect, but the others didnt have a rational explanation. Maybe on that site they use some advanced technology or magic. Or it is indeed Virgin Mary, Jesus etc.

reply to post by Deetermined


Do you know the link/source so i can see the sura like it.

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

I am a bit busy I will explain next time

@Others
merapakistan.freevar.com...
Most impressive "miracle"/miracle I saw.

I've seen more impressive stuff. By the way, the word scientific is mispelled so that link loses some credubility. I've been to a Marian apparition where there are a variety of unexplained/supernatural photos. Some of them is some camera effect, but the others didnt have a rational explanation. Maybe on that site they use some advanced technology or magic. Or it is indeed Virgin Mary, Jesus etc.

Well actually I don't consider seeing "images" to be that impressive,I mean how do you know if it is not made up by some other unknown sources,there are too many supernatural sightings that we can't be sure it is really the person or someone shapeshifted etc. (@divine beings,if they are indeed you ,please forgive me).Preplanning a certain verse in a certain language that could be arranged and can be found in a normal human being imo is more impressive YMMV,unless their claim is a hoax,another problem is I don;t know how is that verse written in arabic ,is it really like the picture or is it a vague resemblance(which could turn out to be a coincidence but I doubt it)

And it is not only found in that site but others as well.

reply to post by 0thetrooth0


I found this one, but I don't know if it's authored by the same person mentioned in the link I provided or not.

www.suralikeit.com...

This is worth a read too:


Miracles of the Quran Exposed

islam-watch.org...

We, ex-Muslims, have debunked all the deceptive claims of Quranic Sciences over the past years. But they are spread in the form of pieces in FFI forum. I have collected all the data regarding “miracles of the Quran” in this E-Book.

Here's another good link on the "Sura Challenge".

"Surah-like-it challenge has been met & Quran not protected against tampering"

The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met when some 530 years ago the first scriptures of Sikhism 'appeared' in muslim-ruled/influenced Punjab territory and proved to be special enough to engage people (both muslims and hindus, who thus became ex-muslims and ex-hindus) in declaring them Divinely Inspired and thus giving rise to a new religion that in the past 500+ years have attracted some 22 million pious believers.

The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met yet another time when in the mid-nineteenth century the first scriptures leading to the modern Bahaï faith 'appeared' in muslim-ruled Persia. Again these scriptures were considered Divinely Inspired by some muslims (who thus became ex-muslims) and proved special enough to form the basis of yet another new post-islam religion that has now some 5 million pious followers.

Thus the quranic sura-like-it challenge has been met at least two times in the past 1400 years, giving rise to two new post-islam religions, each with their own sacred scriptures, considered Divinely Inspired (and apparently 'more special' than the Quran) by its followers. (However, no muslim will and can ever admit the quranic challenge has been met, for when he does that he no longer is a muslim but an apostate.... And the fact that both Sikhs and Bahaï's at times have been/are being persecuted (and sometimes even killed) by muslims says enough... )

mukto-mona.com...

deleted

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0

Originally posted by QuantumSeeker

Originally posted by jeantherapy
Nobody can ever prove it is or is not the word of god, so what exactly are you asking? If we were betting people, just playing the odds, you'd have to bet on 'it's not the word of god' because it is likely just another human creation.

I doubt is a human creation

www.youtube.com...

You said your not a Muslim, but you doubt it's a human creation. Who authored the Quran then? What's stopping you from becoming a muslim?

I am a bit busy I will explain next time

@Others
merapakistan.freevar.com...
Most impressive "miracle"/miracle I saw.

I've seen more impressive stuff. By the way, the word scientific is mispelled so that link loses some credubility. I've been to a Marian apparition where there are a variety of unexplained/supernatural photos. Some of them is some camera effect, but the others didnt have a rational explanation. Maybe on that site they use some advanced technology or magic. Or it is indeed Virgin Mary, Jesus etc.

Well actually I don't consider seeing "images" to be that impressive,I mean how do you know if it is not made up by some other unknown sources,there are too many supernatural sightings that we can't be sure it is really the person or someone shapeshifted etc. (@divine beings,if they are indeed you ,please forgive me).Preplanning a certain verse in a certain language that could be arranged and can be found in a normal human being imo is more impressive YMMV,unless their claim is a hoax,another problem is I don;t know how is that verse written in arabic ,is it really like the picture or is it a vague resemblance(which could turn out to be a coincidence but I doubt it)

And it is not only found in that site but others as well.

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-3-2012 by QuantumSeeker because: (no reason given)

Some of the photos my family took, and others they showed me immediately when they took the picture right on the spot after it had happened. Why did you say your not a muslim, but you said Quran is not of human origin, what do you mean by this?