Why *do* we have to defend Israel?

So apparently at the current AIPAC conference, Obama just pledged more support for Israel, where Iran is concerned. As I said in that thread, people who have no personal stake in the country seem to be fanatical about the defense of Israel, and I've never been able to understand why.

So tell me, ATS. Why do the American and British governments care so much about the military defense of Israel? Why don't they simply tell the Israeli government to look after itself? Is it purely the religious issue? If so, that can end at this point. Christians are not the majority that they once were; the rest of us can surely ignore them now.

We need to stop the support of Israel. The Israeli government are warmongering psychopaths. They want to take over the entire Middle East, and slaughter anyone who is opposed to their interests. Although I know that the Islamic world can be expansionist as well, I find myself wondering whether Muslims would be more willing to stay in their own countries, if it wasn't for the threat of the Israeli government killing them all if they stay at home.

I do not believe that the Biblical prophecies are inevitable. We do not need to all die in a third world war that is centered around the Middle East. But in order to prevent it from happening, we need to stop believing that both the Arabs and Jews are so much more important than anyone else. They aren't. We also need to turn our backs on Middle Eastern oil, once and for all. Even if we didn't fight over it, the amount of pollution oil causes means that it is going to kill us all if we keep using it anyway.

I also don't care if anyone here thinks I am an anti-Semite. If anti-Semitism means that I don't believe that the Jews should be considered more important than anyone else on the planet, then yes, you can call me an anti-Semite. That attack only hurts you if you care about it, and I don't. The Israeli government uses anti-Semitism as a euphemism for literally anything that they do not approve of.

It's time to stop supporting Israel. It's time for humanity to free itself, once and for all, from the terrible curse of Abrahamic/Semitic monotheism in general. It is nothing but a chain around our necks. Do we want to make the Biblical prophecy self-fulfilling, and follow it to our extinction? Or do we want to realise that the Jews and Arabs have no more intrinsic worth than any other ethnic group on the planet, and begin to finally choose to make our own future?

The choice is ours.

It's not that I think you're an anti-semite. I just think you don't have a clue. Have a nice day.

The real question is why does the West feel the need to "defend" Israel as if Israel is some 2yr baby thats unarmed and can't feed itself.

Israel has anywhere from 200 - 400 Nuclear Missiles with the capability to deliever them, they are always given some of the most advanced military tech the US has (we give them foreign "aid", they take that and give it to the military-industrial-complex)

I think of it as Israel is some 240lb juice monkey picking a fights with the 140lb skin and bones states.

reply to post by petrus4

Why *do* we have to defend Israel?

Because they are your rulers??

By the way making disparaging remarks about Arabs is also anti-Semitism, it is just that the correct use of the phrase got twisted somewhere along the way.

He needs that Jewish vote ya know?


israelsmessiah.com...

Before Obama and his conflicted loyalties and priorities......... I think U.S. policy to support and help defend Israel was about stability more than a Love for Israel. We wouldn't have been equally supporting Egypt with money and arms at the same time, otherwise.

Why is balance important?? Well... As noted elsewhere, Israel is a nuclear power and on their regional stage, they're a super-power. They're also a super-power with a pretty widely suspected if not confirmed policy of taking everyone down with them if they are about to lose a war and be over-run.

So.... Protect and maintain the status quo? Or...Leave Israel out on a limb so the Arabs can all commit Nuclear Suicide by Jew? They don't see it that way...but then no one ever PLANS to lose a war, eh? Sitting here from a distance and removed from the emotion of the events there....the outcome is pretty clear if it goes the distance. I think THAT...more than any other single factor....is why President's of both parties have consistently stood with Israel regardless of any other consideration at the time.

At least until now...... Obama is patting Israel on the head one day and making threats or implying other nastiness for them the next. Pick a side...pick it quick..before it's chosen for us.

Originally posted by The GUT
It's not that I think you're an anti-semite. I just think you don't have a clue. Have a nice day.

I'm aware that I don't have a clue. That's why I asked the question. Are you willing to educate me, or do you just want to be insulting?

Israel enjoys US government support no matter what it does because no US politician can get, maintain, keep congressional office, or the office of POTUS, without meeting AIPAC's litmus test. This situation is created by the combination of the current political campaign finance system and high donors who give first priority to backing the Likud Israel regime under Bibi Natanyahu. Although Jews represent only 2% of the US population, the Jewish community provides over 45% of all federal political office campaign donations by individuals. Over two-thirds of that goes to Democratic politicians. However, a finer point is that the single biggest donors are very wealthy Jewish Americans who put Israel first among all priorities, for example, George Soros, Mel Sembler, Haim Saban, and Sheldon Adelson--Adelson, a casino magnate, has given Newt Gingrich many millions of dollars recently, and Adelson himself has said he is a single issue donor in behalf of Israel, and Newt has affirmed Adelson's concern is solely all about Israel. There is no way to stop this inordinate power of a handful of the very wealthy to push the interests of a foreign state, as that state alone, Israel, sees it, no matter the cost to America or the World--unless the American campaign finance system is changed drastically; basically by limiting campaign funding to a publicly financed system as distinguished from the current system which boils down to bribery. I suggest reading The Israel Lobby, by Walt & Mearsheimer.

Also, one commenter said Egypt and Israel get the same amount of direct US foreign aid. Not true. The formula for over 30 years has been Israel gets a significant amount more by the official ratio; also, Israel gets more too as the US underwrites Israel debt, and loans turn into free grants, plus Israel is the only foreign country that gets to charge interest to the US on the very aid the US gives it freely. Further, while aid to Israel is unconditional, aid to Egypt has always been conditional on Egypt playing nice with Israel. Aid to those two countries constitutes the biggest chunk going to only two states. Israel, the size of a postage stamp with a higher credit rating than the USA, is the biggest beneficiary of US foreign aid in US history.

Another factor is the Christian Zionists/fundies, who believe the bible told them to support the Jews simply because God chose the Jews, and if you want to go to heaven you have to support modern nuclear-armed Israel.

So why are we worried about what's going on in some other country? Our actions in the Middle East do not affect our paychecks...and every person fighting over there, went of their own volition.

Why put up a fuss about it? Did your grandma go there on vacation by mistake?

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by The GUT
It's not that I think you're an anti-semite. I just think you don't have a clue. Have a nice day.

I'm aware that I don't have a clue. That's why I asked the question. Are you willing to educate me, or do you just want to be insulting?

I apologize...somewhat. You did ask a lot of questions, but you also made many assertions.

Why can't Israel have a tiny bit of land? And who attacked who first? It's complicated I admit. However, we ALL need to realize that the so-called "common man" of both nations can get along and do so quite nicely sans the political rhetoric.

Radical Islamics aren't a 'poor oppressed people." That's a fantasy. Radical Zionists are no better.

I'm pissed at the U.S. gubmint's empire building outlook, don't get me wrong...but we better realize that--like it or not--allies are allies when it comes down to it and if you think the radicalists in the mid-east are any better than in the west...you have another think coming. Soon unfortunately.

Don't ask the ATS fambly for answers until you have exhausted your own research capabilities is all I am saying.

Star and Flag! I am tired of all the tax dollars THAT GET WASTED BY GOING TO ISRAEL. Let the rich Jews give money to Israel instead of giving it to political candidates. Large individual donations to candidates should be outlawed. Keep donations going to candidates two thousand dollars or less. That will keep them from feeling indebted to these special interests. After all, they represent the constituency in their home districts, not rich Jews. Unless of course their home district is where all the rich Jews live.

No taxpayer dollars should go to murder Muslims, or Christians, or Jews.

I think its a religious issue,i hear it says in the bible that god promised the land of Isreal to the jewish people,and if you believe what it says in there,and most if not all American presidents do, then to not help Isreal would be to go against the word of god,also i think it says something about jesus returning to Jerusalum,or something,so no Isreal no return of Christ.

reply to post by The GUT


Israel is NOBODY'S ally. Especially not ours. Remember the Liberty!! Attacked for hours and the communications equipment was the focus of the first attacks so they could not get out an SOS. Ally my poop chute!!

Originally posted by thebabyseagull
I think its a religious issue,i hear it says in the bible that god promised the land of Isreal to the jewish people,and if you believe what it says in there,and most if not all American presidents do, then to not help Isreal would be to go against the word of god,also i think it says something about jesus returning to Jerusalum,or something,so no Isreal no return of Christ.

Israel the nation mentioned in the Bible is not the Israel that thrives in the Middle East today. The Israel of the Bible has not existed for quite a while.

The birth and death of Christ fulfilled God's covenant with the Jews and established a covenant with EVERYONE who acknowledges Christ as the son of God. The Jews are no more special than anyone else and they haven't been since the death of Christ.

reply to post by thebabyseagull


When I see it in print, it sounds even more insane. No Israel, no return of Jesus?

If Jesus only cares about Israel, and not the billions of other souls on this planet, that is a Jesus I don't want to meet.

What kind of omnipotent spirit favors one tribe of people over all the others, and requires a bunch of dead people who believe otherwise just so he can show back up and reign in a world of "peace"?

It is a crazy, nonsensical belief system, that demands that Solomon's temple be rebuilt in order for the Messiah to return. How convenient to drag the Christians into this nutjob scenario by telling them that Jesus will have a return engagement there if they help destroy the current Dome of The Rock, a Jesus the Jewish faith doesn't believe was ever the true Messiah.

Oh, but I guess that's just splitting hairs, eh? One Messiah, another Messiah, what's the difference? Come help us rule the middle east so you can wait for Jesus....or whomever....to return. Freaking looney tunes B. S.

I rather fancy the Jesus of the New Testament: The one who threw the money changers out of the temple...the one who got smacked on the cheek, and turned the other cheek so that could be hit, too.....the one who hung out with the dregs of society and brought out their true virtue and goodness....the one who preached to everybody, "Love thy neighbor as thyself"....and the one who, beaten and hanging bleeding on a cross to die a horrible death, said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

I want nothing to do with Israel, its ambitions, war-mongering, cruelty and racist ways. I want nothing to do with any country nor any religion which subverts a religion of peace into a religion of war. The bible has been used for 2000 years as an excuse to invade, kill, torture, and oppress. I'm bloody sick of it.

It all has to do with a STUPID fictional book called the bible.

What else can it be?

What good has Israel done to make the folks of the West wish to support them?

Answer: NOTHING.

I do not care for Israel, NOR do I care about its enemies. They can ALL go to HELL with their ASININE, HATEFUL, WAR-LOVING, FILTHY Abrahamic religions.

Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by The GUT

 

Israel is NOBODY'S ally. Especially not ours. Remember the Liberty!! Attacked for hours and the communications equipment was the focus of the first attacks so they could not get out an SOS. Ally my poop chute!!

They'll be there in a fight...or die. Again: It's the average person I speak for. Not the mouthpieces of government. Do you really believe the Arab nations are innocent victims?

Remember who I speak for. Peace.

Because The Holocaust©
if we dont defend Israel The Holocaust© will happen.
If you stop supporting Israel The Holocaust® will happen
if you dont give them financial aid The Holocaust®
If you ask questions The Holocaust©
If you forget to tie your shoes

$The Holocaust$

Originally posted by petrus4
So tell me, ATS. Why do the American and British governments care so much about the military defense of Israel?

The West doesn't have a choice because:

Ariel Sharon:

"EVERY TIME WE DO SOMETHING, YOU TELL ME AMERICANS WILL DO THIS AND WILL DO THAT. I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY CLEAR: DON'T WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL;

WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA. AND THE AMERICANS KNOW IT."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
October 3, 2001

Its realy pretty easy to understand. Israel is the most powerful and stable power in a region that is vital to our and most of the worlds national security, that would be oil. We support Israel because it is in are own self interest.