FAQ's on Freemasonry, by former 32 degree mason, shriner, proficiency card holder..

Not being a Catholic, I don't know. As you know, issues of religious faith are not subjects for discussion in lodge, so while in conversation and over time you may find out a man's faith and affiliation, it is not something you ask about...

Unless you meet him somewhere outside lodge, and then within the bounds of brotherly love and affection, you can discuss any subject. As you may note here, we do not all necessarily agree with one another on all issues, but we can discuss those differences in a most friendly manner...

I think that as American Catholics move away from the "pope is infallible" concept to "the pope is a leader of a church" concept, that more and more Catholics have decided to take matters of faith into their own hands, based loosely on the teachings of the church... and the more the RCC tries to reign them in, threatening them with damnation of whatnot, the more they move away and just do not tell the church, either directly or in confessional... and what they do not know won't hurt them.

I know many priets of the RCC that do not see masonry as the evil that the pope three hundred years ago claimed, and see the RCC objecting to it more out of inertia than any real objection... I mean, read the papal bull... their objections were that we advocated: Freedom of thought, freedom to choose our own leaders, freedom of religion, the freedom to chose a faith, education for all (including women, which at the time was heresy)...

Its kind of funny reading, today, given that most of what they objected to is commonplace and normal today, but hey, they just recently got around to admitting that Gallileo Gallilee was RIGHT... four hundred years ago more or less...

it takes them a while to catch up...

It should also be mentioned that just a couple of years ago, Pope John Paul II welcomed Bro. C. Fred Kleinknecht, 33�, Sovereign Grand Commander, and his party for a visit to the Vatican, while Bro. Kleinknecht was in Rome at a conference of international Grand Commanders.
During the brief meeting, the relationship between the Fraternity and the Church was discussed; it was acknowledged that there had been misunderstandings on both sides. The meeting ended on a fraternal and charitable tone between the Bishop of Rome and the Supreme Council's Grand Commander.

In the US, the coldness between the Church and the Lodge has for the most part been melted, excepting only a few scattered extremists. President John F. Kennedy can be credited with much of this progress: a traditional Irish Catholic, Kennedy welcomed to the White House Bro. Henry C. Clausen, 33�, Sovereign Grand Commander, along with other foreign Masonic delegates during the International Conference held in D.C. in the mid-1960's. Clausen in turned praised Kennedy and his faith in the New Age Magazine (the Supreme Council's monthly publication, now called Scottish Rite Journal), which was a huge leap from the blatantly anti-Catholic articles that had been published in the New Age on a regular basis in the 1920's and 30's.

Fiat Lvx.

Another point to consider is that many protestants and non-Christians tend to view the Pope as the personification of the Roman Catholic Church.

The fact is, the Pope was not considered infallible, EVEN in matters of doctrine, until 1820. And this wasn't set in stone until 1870. The whole Papal infallability issue is not a relic of the Middle Ages; it is an attempt to make the Pope as a modern statesman in the same sense that a prime minister or a Chancellor is. Papal infallability is analogous to Louis XIV's "Letat, C'est Moi" (The state--That's me!)

The actual source of most Catholic dogma is actually not the Vatican, but the Magisterium, the college of bishops in USA's case. So while the Pope may rail against this or that, it is the American college that interprets his dicta for the States. This is why catholic responses to communism, birth control, masonry, etc, have varied among times and places.

If this Protestant got it wrong, maybe a knowledgeable Catholic can enlighten us.



[edit on 20-9-2004 by dr_strangecraft]

[edit on 20-9-2004 by dr_strangecraft]

Masonic light, really? That is really interesting.....If the Vatican ever retracts it's stand on Masonry, I'd be giving my old lodge a call.

Please keep in mind that I don't "hate" Freemasonry or Masons, my church presently stands that it is forbidden for Catholics to join the order...I've tried to find the source of this by conducting a little research, and debating with masons in a masonic forum....

I wish my church wasn't against it, cuz I did enjoy my short time as a mason. However, the church presently forbids membership. Though some decide to be disobedient to the church, and do as they please....I'm am the kind of person that listens to authority, whether church, or community.

If it comes from the top, then I listen.

I wrote to the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus, and they stated to me that a Catholic can not be a Mason, and be in good standing with the church.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Masonic light, really? That is really interesting.....If the Vatican ever retracts it's stand on Masonry, I'd be giving my old lodge a call.

To my knowledge, the present Pope neither retracted nor reinforced the anti-Masonic Bulls against Freemasonry. As mentioned, it was conceded that there have been "misunderstandings", but that's about it.

Several members of the RCC clergy in the US have dropped the Masonic subject altogether. It is acknowledged that no Catholic can belong to an anti-Catholic society, or a society whose principles are opposed to Catholicism. Since Freemasonry is not ideologically opposed to Catholicism as long as the Church does not to attempt to exceed its authority as it once did, Freemasonry has no beef with the Church. It has only been in the cases in the past, where the Church attempted to strong-arm people and restrict their freedom, that Masonry rose in open defiance against it.

Again, it is not the beliefs of the Church that Masonry opposed, it was their actions.

Fiat Lvx.

Yes, I did learn about the actions of European Freemasons in the past, certain parades and protests at the Vatican and such, and prominent Freemasons like Garabaldi and the church losing the Vatican estates or whatver...........

Not the beliefs of Freemasonry, but the past actions eh?

hmmmm......

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Yes, I did learn about the actions of European Freemasons in the past, certain parades and protests at the Vatican and such, and prominent Freemasons like Garabaldi and the church losing the Vatican estates or whatver...........

Not the beliefs of Freemasonry, but the past actions eh?

I was speaking of the actions of the Church, not those of Freemasonry. It was not Freemasonry who put innocent Jewish and Muslim women and children on torture racks during the auto-de-fey. The Inquisitor who handed over the Jew to be burned at the stake because he refused to convert was a Catholic official, not a Masonic one.

Garibaldi was completely justified in conquering the papal states and annexing it to Italy; the Church had pretended that it had authority over all men, while in reality, authority comes solely from the will of the people and each person is sovereign over him/herself. The Church does not have authority to persecute "heretics", as each man and woman has the natural right to his/her opinions.

Fiat Lvx.

Freemasons have "infiltrated" the Vatican, it is known that there are Cardinals and Bishops that are part of the order, in secret, or not. What do you think the purpose of having a high Vatican official join the masons, or who was already a mason before he became a priest.

Are these church officials that are also Freemasons, placed in various places in the church heiarchy there to make drastic changes? What would happen if a Pope was elected that was also a mason?

Some Catholics fear that clergy that are masons are there to infiltrate and destroy the church from within.



[edit on 21-9-2004 by chief_counsellor]

Jesus was the one who died on the cross for our sins, and redeemed us by his blood. He is the only way to the Father, as it says in scripture.

Buddha etc...never died for me....Jesus did.

There can only be 1 truth.......not a whole bunch of contradictary truths...

Jesus is not only one path, buddha, or Hare Krishna another path.

Jesus is the only truth.

[edit on 20-9-2004 by chief_counsellor]

If this is the case, then the majority of the Earth's population is doomed to Hell. Would such a God worthy of worship truly allow this?

Gazrok et al....I never said that non-christians go to Hell...I don't know why people keep stating this.

I just said that Jesus is the only means of Salvation, and when a non-Christian goes to Heaven, it is because of Jesus as well...

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Freemasons have "infiltrated" the Vatican, it is known that there are Cardinals and Bishops that are part of the order, in secret, or not. What do you think the purpose of having a high Vatican official join the masons, or who was already a mason before he became a priest.

And just who exactly are these "high Vatican officials" who are Masons? Certainly, if your assertion is true that there are a number of "Bishops and Cardinals" that are Masons, it should be simple for you to name a couple.

What would happen if a Pope was elected that was also a mason?

Not being a Roman Catholic myself, I honestly couldn't care less. Who is, or is not, pope of the Roman Church is of absolutely no concern to me, any more than who is, or is not, the Dalai Lama or the Aga Khan.

Fiat Lvx.

Non-Christians go their own 'heaven", whatever and wherever that might be. Taoists who enter the Celestial Paradise have nothing to do with Jesus . . . unless of course Jesus is also part of the Tao and is considered one of the ascended masters, for whatever reason. None of which can be proven. Whatever the case, This concept of "heaven" differs from faith to faith, and most of the time, Jesus does not play a role for non-Christians.

In any case, when faith-based belief enters the argument, the argument must cease. What troubles me is your belief that Jesus has primacy over all, Christians and non-Crhistians alike. Tell that to a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, etc. Your belief, then, while quite valid for you and I assume quite fulfilling, is no better nor worse than theirs. it is simply different.

Ahh . . . now THERE'S the key: different. Different faiths coming together is untenable by your (Salva's) version of Christianity. How do ypu propose to LIVE IN A SOCIETY that is composed fo such a diverse array of beliefs, religions, faiths?

How do you, personally behave around people of different faiths? Do you speak to them? Do you exchange ideas? Or, do you view the poor lost sheep of false gods with disdain?

These are the important questions to ask.

Bea, Augustin. Cardinal. Secretary of State (next to Pope) under Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.
Baggio, Sebastiano. Cardinal. Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops. (This is a crucial Congregation since it appoints new Bishops.) Secretary of State under Pope John Paul II from 1989 to 1992. 8-14-57; # 85-1640. Masonic code name "SEBA." He controls consecration of Bishops.

list available at www.aculink.net...

I don't endorse this site, but it does contain a list of Vatican Officials who are supposedly Masons.

Originally posted by theron dunn
I have several friends that are RCC and Masons... they do not feel a need to justify their position. The day where all Catholics think the pope is infallible on issues of faith are LONG gone,

Then your RCC friends have excommunicated themselves.
ANY Catholic who doesn't think the church is infallible on
issues of faith is really a protestant, but just likes wearing
a Catholic mantle for some strange reason.

Originally posted by theron dunn
So, lets see, how many MILLIONS must die so that you can feel good about Jesus? Your church has been the source and cause of millions of people's deaths, for "religious purity. Given the propensity of your church toward rape, molestation, murder, warfare, hate... all clothed in the veneer of religious faith, I would chose Masonry...

Put 'Muhammad' in the place of Jesus ... and you have just described
the Wahabbi Muslim Terrorists.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I have absolutely nothing against KofC, and have friends who belong to it (a couple of which are also Freemasons).

That's a no-no. Catholics are not allowed to be masons. To be
a mason AND a Catholic is hypocritical. It's like someone coming here
and thumbing their nose at the board rules. They know what the rules
are when you come on. To thumb their nose at them is hypocritcal,
disruptive, and arrogant.

For Catholics to be cafeteria in their following the church teachings
is for them to really be protestant. Why don't they just leave the
church and go worship where they really believe, in a protestant
church?

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
What would the CC do to one such as I who thinks Masonry is a harmless and worthwhile organization? *sigh*

'To' you? Nothing. As long as you don't join.
'For' you? Provide documentation to show that
Catholics aren't allowed to be Masons.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
list available at www.aculink.net...

another site -
www.trosch.org...

Question and Answer - why Catholics can't be masons -
www.cin.org...

[edit on 9/21/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Bea, Augustin. Cardinal. Secretary of State (next to Pope) under Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.
Baggio, Sebastiano. Cardinal. Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops. (This is a crucial Congregation since it appoints new Bishops.) Secretary of State under Pope John Paul II from 1989 to 1992. 8-14-57; # 85-1640. Masonic code name "SEBA." He controls consecration of Bishops.

But didn't you just tell me earlier this morning that Catholics are excommunicated if they become Masons? But now, just a few hours later, there's a bevy of high-level Churchmen that are Masons.

Somebody just wrote something about them having to "excommunicate themselves". This would indeed be the case, since your claims about Masons and the RCC contradict each other, and break down into paradox.

P.S. There's no such thing as "Masonic code names". I thought you said you were a former Mason; so tell us...what was your code name?

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 21-9-2004 by Masonic Light]