Money isn't evil - Taxation is

Originally posted by syrinx high priest

if it's evil, why aren't they giving it away ?

Money isn't evil

And I think they are giving it away, but only to their buddies

reply to post by ImpartialObserver

These services can be funded by a central authority that has been given authority to create an unlimited amount of money as long as all of the people agree that this will be the primary funding mechanism.

You are joking right? Perhaps you could expound on that idea further.

I fail to see how money and taxes are just not as evil..both are controlling and money gives the people in charge leverage to tax? Maybe not money in general, politicians and taxes/money?

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

These services can be funded by a central authority that has been given authority to create an unlimited amount of money as long as all of the people agree that this will be the primary funding mechanism.

You are joking right? Perhaps you could expound on that idea further.

Am I joking?

It has become abundantly clear that the Federal Reserve controls almost all if not all of the civilized worlds currencies.



If it's possible for the Federal Reserve to create an amount of money that is completely unrepayable and still remain in power then it's possible to create as much money as the entire world needs for prosperity while eliminating the need for repayment of any of it.

Originally posted by mugger

I fail to see how money and taxes are just not as evil..both are controlling and money gives the people in charge leverage to tax?

Money is created by power and power remains in power by taxation.

It is the taxation of money by those in power who wish to remain in power that is evil

Money itself is not evil nor can it be

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


Personal greed, or the greed of an individual, is something people that have no ambition to better their lot in life complain about. Instead of looking in the mirror, they choose to blame the concept of greed. Too much greed is a bad thing, but when someone has enough self interest to excel and get to the top they have a moral choice to make... that choice is to keep going regardless of who is hurt in the process, or look back and help others up the ladder. Self interest is a good thing, because it is the foundation of independence and self sustainment, and in order to make the world around us a better place, we must first be independent and able. I am using the word greed here very loosely, only because you used it first, but I am using it in a much different context than you are. You are using it as an excuse for certain people to abstain from any personal responsibility for their position or circumstances, I am using it as a self fullfiling virtue that can and should be used to make the lives of others better. Everything that you enjoy in life, at least in the material form, was created because of greed, or more specifically the wish to better one's life through use of the free market, and that is what built America. Corupt progressivism is what has destroyed it. Progressives are the most greedy creatures on this planet, and they hide that greed within the scope of using their power and influence to better the lives of the ignorant people that bow at the feet of government plunder. What will they do when there are more recipients than there are contributors? That question will be answered sooner than we hope, and once it is, there will be no turning back from the certain doom and destruction that the once greatest nation on Earth will surely face, but you go ahead and keep drinking the socialist, lets all hold hands around the camp fire kool-aid.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to
post by ImpartialObserver

... you go ahead and keep drinking the socialist, lets all hold hands around the camp fire kool-aid.

Interesting that you think I'm a socialist.

How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

Originally posted by ImpartialObserver

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to
post by ImpartialObserver

... you go ahead and keep drinking the socialist, lets all hold hands around the camp fire kool-aid.

Interesting that you think I'm a socialist.

How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

Your statement regarding taxes being used for the good of all is a socialist position. I'm not calling you a full blown socialist because I don't have enough information to make such a claim. Forgive me if my statement was too general.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime

Originally posted by ImpartialObserver

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to
post by ImpartialObserver

... you go ahead and keep drinking the socialist, lets all hold hands around the camp fire kool-aid.

Interesting that you think I'm a socialist.

How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

Your statement regarding taxes being used for the good of all is a socialist position. I'm not calling you a full blown socialist because I don't have enough information to make such a claim. Forgive me if my statement was too general.

I believe that I stated that the public services that provide service for the good of all, that are currently payed for by taxes could be payed for by the Federal Reserve instead of from other taxing sources such as property and municipal tax. If I wasn't clear earlier I hope this clears it up.

By the way I not against privatly run fire and police departments, hospitals, road maintenance crews, air traffic control, military units, media outlets, space programs, agricultural subsidy programs, nuclear waste dumps and drinking water companies.

Both public and private systems have their benefits and flaws.

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


So, every year the gov't prints out new money to pay for the social services? You do realize over the long run that would cause inflation. Where as if we pay for those services with taxes, we wouldnt need to inject new money into the system. paying off debt isnt the only problem, it is inflation too.
Money should only be injected into the system when it is necessary, such as, keeping an appropriate ratio between M1 vs. GDP.

If you were to print off money every year to pay the payroll of of these services, you would be causing massive inflation...

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

So, every year the gov't prints out new money to pay for the social services? You do realize over the long run that would cause inflation. Where as if we pay for those services with taxes, we wouldnt need to inject new money into the system. paying off debt isnt the only problem, it is inflation too.

Money should only be injected into the system when it is necessary, such as, keeping an appropriate ratio between M1 vs. GDP.

If you were to print off money every year to pay the payroll of of these services, you would be causing massive inflation...

I believe one of the contibuting factors of inflation is actually taxation.

The other main factor of inflation is the inability to find new buyers of newly created money (Which some like to call debt - You see a debt is repayable - The worlds current debt is nothing more than a fantasy).

Someone should be willing to continue buying debt as long as someone else buys the buyers debt, with the understanding that the debt is unrepayable.

The continued taxation of an unrepayable debt based on fantasy is the definition of madness

Something's got to change - I say it should be taxation.

There should still be an understanding of how much created money should be spent and distributed at some level somewhere, but all taxation should cease

taxation is a crime and unconstitutional .The Fed should be banned and all its debts be null and void/

Originally posted by ImpartialObserver

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

So, every year the gov't prints out new money to pay for the social services? You do realize over the long run that would cause inflation. Where as if we pay for those services with taxes, we wouldnt need to inject new money into the system. paying off debt isnt the only problem, it is inflation too.

Money should only be injected into the system when it is necessary, such as, keeping an appropriate ratio between M1 vs. GDP.

If you were to print off money every year to pay the payroll of of these services, you would be causing massive inflation...

I believe one of the contibuting factors of inflation is actually taxation.

The other main factor of inflation is the inability to find new buyers of newly created money (Which some like to call debt - You see a debt is repayable - The worlds current debt is nothing more than a fantasy).

Someone should be willing to continue buying debt as long as someone else buys the buyers debt, with the understanding that the debt is unrepayable.

The continued taxation of an unrepayable debt based on fantasy is the definition of madness

Something's got to change - I say it should be taxation.

There should still be an understanding of how much created money should be spent and distributed at some level somewhere, but all taxation should cease

edit on 28-2-2012 by ImpartialObserver because: (no reason given)

Taxation is not inflation. Inflation is very simple. it is how much money is in the system, and how many goods or services are offered. I'll make this simple for you.
Lets say there is 100$ in the system, and 100$ worth of resources to buy. each credit or resource is worth 1$.
now lets inject money into the system, as you propose. There is now 200$ in the system and there is still 100 credits of resource available. each credit of resource is now worth 2$. So you are spending more money now for that same credit of resource.

Also, the debt to the federal reserve is not unpayable. If the US we're to actually run up a trade surplus, we could pay off our debt. Also, there is much more value(TNA) than what we as a country owe the FED or any other debtor.
total US debt - 15.4 Trillion
Total national assets 75 Trillion
with a gdp of 15 trillion every year/

Originally posted by VonDoomen

Originally posted by ImpartialObserver

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by ImpartialObserver

 

So, every year the gov't prints out new money to pay for the social services? You do realize over the long run that would cause inflation. Where as if we pay for those services with taxes, we wouldnt need to inject new money into the system. paying off debt isnt the only problem, it is inflation too.

Money should only be injected into the system when it is necessary, such as, keeping an appropriate ratio between M1 vs. GDP.

If you were to print off money every year to pay the payroll of of these services, you would be causing massive inflation...

I believe one of the contibuting factors of inflation is actually taxation.

The other main factor of inflation is the inability to find new buyers of newly created money (Which some like to call debt - You see a debt is repayable - The worlds current debt is nothing more than a fantasy).

Someone should be willing to continue buying debt as long as someone else buys the buyers debt, with the understanding that the debt is unrepayable.

The continued taxation of an unrepayable debt based on fantasy is the definition of madness

Something's got to change - I say it should be taxation.

There should still be an understanding of how much created money should be spent and distributed at some level somewhere, but all taxation should cease

Taxation is not inflation. Inflation is very simple. it is how much money is in the system, and how many goods or services are offered. I'll make this simple for you.

Lets say there is 100$ in the system, and 100$ worth of resources to buy. each credit or resource is worth 1$.
now lets inject money into the system, as you propose. There is now 200$ in the system and there is still 100 credits of resource available. each credit of resource is now worth 2$. So you are spending more money now for that same credit of resource.

I agree with right up until you say that each credit of resource is worth $2. If a $200 credit were injected into the system, Someone somewhere would hoard $198 credits for themselves and thier buddies and release remaining $2 to the general populance. By doing so the hoarders know that the masses would kill each other over the $2 which was remaining in circulation, thus driving down the price of the goods. This would allow the hoarders to pickup and hoard another $1.80 of depreciated goods, leaving the masses with .20 cents.

So an additional $200 would be needed to be injected into the system. That is unless someone did something about the hoarders.

What is the main reason why hoarders hoard?

Is it greed, insecurity, a lust for power and control or is it something else?

Also, the debt to the federal reserve is not unpayable. If the US we're to actually run up a trade surplus, we could pay off our debt. Also, there is much more value(TNA) than what we as a country owe the FED or any other debtor.
total US debt - 15.4 Trillion
Total national assets 75 Trillion
with a gdp of 15 trillion every year/

$75 tillion in assets please. What do you propose: Selling our national parks, or opening up the borders to any and all immigrants, selling some WMD's, Perhaps the water rights to lake michigan?

Anyways you need someone that has $75 trillion in capital that is willing to purchase said assets.

As can be learned from the weimar republic one of the causes of their hperinflation was the continuation of taxation while still creating money.

Monetary inflation can become hyperinflation if monetary authorities fail to fund increasing government expenses from taxes, government debt, cost cutting, or by other means, because either

a) during the time between recording or levying taxable transactions and collecting the taxes due, the value of the taxes collected falls in real value to a small fraction of the original taxes receivable; or
b) government debt issues fail to find buyers except at very deep discounts; or
c) a combination of the above.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


I am beginning to realize you have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree with right up until you say that each credit of resource is worth $2. If a $200 credit were injected into the system, Someone somewhere would hoard $198 credits for themselves and thier buddies and release remaining $2 to the general populance.

Idk how you went off on this tangent. what are the means in which these hoarder magically can horde 198$ in this system i provided? You take 200$ being injected into the system to a few select people hording 198$ via no mechanism...

$75 tillion in assets please. What do you propose: Selling our national parks, or opening up the borders to any and all immigrants, selling some WMD's, Perhaps the water rights to lake michigan?

total national assets is- Small business assets(6.2T) + corporate assets(17.2T) + household assets(53.3T).
It has nothing to do with land owned by the federal government or water rights or anything like that at all. If you wanted to refer to the total value of everything in the US, it would be hundreds of trillions of dollars.

As can be learned from the weimar republic one of the causes of their hperinflation was the continuation of taxation while still creating money.

Monetary inflation can become hyperinflation if monetary authorities fail to fund increasing government expenses from taxes, government debt, cost cutting, or by other means, because either

a) during the time between recording or levying taxable transactions and collecting the taxes due, the value of the taxes collected falls in real value to a small fraction of the original taxes receivable; or
b) government debt issues fail to find buyers except at very deep discounts; or
c) a combination of the above.

You're still not getting it.
"hyperinflation if monetary authorities fail to fund increasing government expenses from taxes"

This goes back to what you proposed, paying EMS and police by injecting new money every year. When you pay for these services through taxes, you are using money already in this enclosed loop. Therefore, the total amount of money in the system HASNT INCREASED. By injecting money, as you propose, instead of using the money already in the system, you would cause inflation.

"a) during the time between recording or levying taxable transactions and collecting the taxes due, the value of the taxes collected falls in real value to a small fraction of the original taxes receivable;"

And this is due to new money being injected into the system, after the tax bill has been created. The purchasing power of those dollars has gone down, DUE TO the injection of new money into the system. Paying for things through taxes PREVENTS inflation. Paying for things by injecting new money into the system CAUSES inflation.
Say the US gov't has a bill this year for $100 Billion. However, through our tax rate, it only raises say $70B, meaning they have a shortfall of $30 Billion. The gov't then holds a bond auction in which private investors can then give the US GOV'T additional money by buying these bonds. This is money that is ALREADY in the system. However, the US GOV't is unlikely to to raise that additional $30B from its citizens investing additional capital in their system. SO, the GOV't then goes to the LENDER OF LAST RESORT, our central bank, the federal reserve. The FED will pretty much guarantee to buy up any remaining bonds by printing NEW money to inject into the system to buy up the bonds. This is where your inflation comes. The gov't already sent out the tax bill to its citizens (the $70B tax bill). However, to make up for the $30B shortfall, the fed buys bonds (new money injected into the system) which causes inflation AFTER the tax bill is already out, and thus, weakening the VALUE of the taxes collected.
TREASURY BOMB- FED buys 900B at treasury auction

The Federal Reserve on Wednesday made good on its promise to try to spur faster economic growth through a controversial program to purchase about $900 billion in Treasury bonds — nearly half the amount issued to finance this year’s federal deficit.

So, when the FED buys these bonds by injecting new money it causes inflation. When we pay back the fed, we are decreasing the amount of money, which reverses that inflation....

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


I went to your wikipedia page, and you CONVENIENTLY skipped over this part at the very beginning, which would have ended this argument as it shows exactly what causes hyperinflation.

A vicious circle is created in which more and more inflation is created with each iteration of the ever increasing money printing cycle. (my words- injecting new money into the system every year to pay for police, instead of paying through taxes, which is money ALREADY in the system)

Hyperinflation becomes visible when there is an unchecked increase in the money supply.

"unchecked increase in the money supply" which means you're injecting money into the system all willy nilly, where as it should be based on certain economic standards, such as (example) keeping a set ratio between M1 vs. GDP

All I have to say is that giving and taking interest is your enemy and nothing else here. If the interest wouldn't of existed everyone would of worked more fairly for their right of the money. When you can print money out of thin air there is always the possibility of bribing millions of people whenever you want and spreading chaos around the world. Wouldn't it be funny if you and I could print as much money as we could and buy everything we wanted?

agreed.taxation isnt evil either. Taxation without representation would be evil.
the bible called for tithing.

edit on 28-2-2012 by braydenf because: (no reason given)

Taxation is not tithing. To tithe is by choice. To tax is by force.

reply to post by Jabronie


Except if we relied on tithing, we wouldnt have enough money to run the social programs we demand.
To many people would try and get away with not payimg and relegating the responsability to others,

reply to post by ImpartialObserver


Of course money isn't evil. It is the love of money that is wholly evil. There is no need for money. All money does is create subdivisions and classes of human beings and even hierarchys. Presenting us with the illusion that all men are not created equal. When they are.