Michael Moore should leave America.

I know that when most people see this title, they're going to think "oh no, another stupid redneck who thinks that anyone against the war should leave America". No, I seriously think that it would be better for Michael Moore to live somewhere else. He seems to be agaist everything we stand for, but still tries to say that he's some kind of patriot.

First off, he's been heard to remark "The dumbest Canadian is smarter than the smartest American. He said the same thing in France and Britain. Then, at another time in another place, he says something like "I don't think that most Americans are as stupid as hollywood portrays them to be"

He makes movies about evil company's making money in evil ways. He speaks out against our system, then uses that very system to make millions of dollars off of his movies that are bashing that system. In his movie "Roger and me", he is bashing General Motors. If you read the book "Michael Moore is a Big Stupid White Man", they mention that Michael Moore actually worked for GM for a day, but quit out of frusteration.

He talks about how stupid and lazy Americans are, and how are system is so screwed up, then why does he live in it? Not to mention that he's pretty over weight, and pale at that. Being against most things that America stands for, why does Michael Moore still live here?

That's it man.

I followed you spouting the same garbage in the Faith and Theology forum. Except you were asking why I don't leave America.

Exactly what do you think America stands for? You never make that very clear, except that you are certain that we should leave.

The only thing Moore has done is break ranks with the mass-meda perception-generation machine, and reveal the real humanity at work behind the comedy of errors and vices our culture has become. America isn't the companies and media outlets, the stores or the products. I guess you really don't have a grasp of that.

You are truly a profane and ignorant person. Mr Moore is demonstrating the TRUE American spirit, the same kind of spirit that made the Founding Fathers fight a war against the tyranny of Imperial Britian. Only now, all this time later, there is a whole new tyranny in America. It is the federal government, who is behind the legal tyranny today. And it's the corporations and media behind the cultural tyranny.

Your first clue should be that the entire country is exactly the same everywhere you go. A country of 280,000,000 all marchig to the same tune! It is a facist's wet dream, minus the need for war and conquest. These men were all quick studies of the NAZI's fantastic manipulation of the population, and you all are the products of this methodology.

You are SO manipulated, misled, and utterly powerless that you will serve these filthy powers and live their lifestyle until the day you die. War will come after war, and you will fight and die until you finally realize what the New World Order really is, and why it was kept quiet and secret for so long.

Arkaleus.





[Edited on 19-9-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
You are SO manipulated, misled, and utterly powerless that you will serve these filthy powers and live their lifestyle until the day you die. War will come after war, and you will fight and die until you finally realize what the New World Order really is, and why it was kept quiet and secret for so lon

You sounded so much like Alex Jones right there

What DOES America stand for Herman? The Bill of Rights gives Michael Moore the Freedom of Speech, he can say whatever he damn well pleases. Soo...whats it stand for?

Arkaleus, after reading YOUR post, I'm pretty sure that you're the one who's brainwashed/manipulated etc. etc. All I'm saying is that if you don't like America, or anything we stand for, why do you live here? Did I ever say he should be forced to leave America? Did I ever say we should kick him out? NO!

Michael Moore has made it pretty damned clear that he doesn't think much of the American people or the American way of life: freedom. Capitalism, that's one thing America stands for. Freedom in business. Michael Moore has also made it clear that he doesn't think much of that either. Why don't you answer me? If you don't like America or the American people, then WHY-ARE-YOU-HERE!? Why don't I move to france and then complain about their government and the way they are?

By the way, what's wrong with people being similar? Isn't this country free, isn't this country unified? Of course people who live in the same country are similar, that's why it's a country! I mean, people aren't identical. Everyone has their own ideals, beliefs. Yes, I agree that there are alot of stupid fads that people fall into, but that's just marketing. Arkaleus, this thread was about how Michael Moore doesn't like America, and why does he live here? To take advantage of the system that he criticizes? And yes, this thread was partly inspired by me wondering why Arkaleus lives here, which lead me to wonder why people who dislike our country live here. Since you decided to make this about you, Arkaleus, why don't you tell me why you live here?

Arguing with you on this subject is like trying to punch down cottonballs in a hurricane.

Not every American feels the same way about business, the market culture, or the government. It is not required to believe what your neighbor does. We all don't have to want the war in Iraq, we don't all have to support the federal government in whatever it does.

You seem to think that anyone who critizises the things that are in America, is somehow UN-American. That is the most idiotic appraisal of social behavior I have heard in this forum. America IS FOUNDED ON THOSE WHO DISAGREE. Are you understanding what you read, Johnny?

You are probably someone who thinks criticising America is somehow wrong. I don't understand how you think this is more American than having your own opinions and knowledge. When did this social gestapo come into being? It's unamerican to let other people think for you, too.

My social traditions and philosophy BELONG in America. I am for freedom too man, I just don't think that whatever this nation does is holy and right. I would stand by my brothers to fight against an invasion, just like every other American. I don't laugh at the dead soldiers, or spit on my military. Those are MY brothers too. My issue is with the rich and the powerful, and the government. Are they your friends, Herman? Do you like what they plan for you and the world? Wake up and quit talking like such an jerk about people you aren't able to debate with.

You probably feel in your little soul that your whole way of life is threatened by anyone who questions the garbage can culture and the businesses of America. What a shallow being you must be. I love many things about America, most of which are forgotten and covered over today. That's the REAL America, the stuff that nobody reads about, or cares about anymore. Go buy your Nikes, your nice car, your phat clothes - that's the stuff everyone is into today. That never was, nor ever will be AMERICA.

And dammit no, I am not going to leave because I disagree with things here. This nation has a great tradition of disagreeing. Do you even have an awareness of history? Even the history of the past 100 years? America is NOT a "SINGLE MINDED" culture. It NEVER has been. It's only recently that certain people are TRYING TO MAKE IT ONE. That's a very bad sign if you understood such things. Ignorance is like a man with bad body odor - He can't associate with people who are not like him, and he should be embarassed of himself.

Arkaleus

Arkaleus:

You remind me alot of a former poster, named lilbalm. He loved to just dance around the issue, throwing in some insults along the way, a few broad generalizations, and in the end try to divert the thread to another topic. I never said I don't stand for freedom. I like the disagreements. But if someone doesn't like this country, why are they here? I understand that we have the freedom to say these things, that's good. You have the freedom to talk about how much you dislike the country and the people, does that have anything to do with living there? Do the people like Michael Moore live in a country they can't stand because they just can? "I hate America, but you can't tell me I shouldn't live here because I have the freedom to say these things" That still doesn't answer the question: If you don't like the country, then why do you live here? I never said that people can't disagree, I never said that they can't argue. But when you say things like "The dumbest Canadian is smarter than the smartest American", that leads me to wonder why he would CHOOSE to live here. Do I think criticizing America is wrong? No. Do I think there is something strange about choosing to live in a place you don't like? Yes.

Go buy your Nikes, your nice car, your phat clothes - that's the stuff everyone is into today.

Like I said, why the personal insults? Why do you make these assumptions, these judgements, these generalizations about me? You have never seen me. I don't buy nike's, I don't dress with what's in. Hell, most of my clothes I just picked up one day when I was at Target or something. Either that or they're hand me downs from my older brother. I buy the cheapest shoes that I think will last me, and of course I like. I don't go around buying new clothes everytime there is a new trend. My car is a Saturn that we picked up at a used-car dealership. You don't know me, so why do you make these assumptions? Like I said, this thread is about Michael Moore, not about you.

Oh, and Arkaleus, I think you should re-think your position. You seem to be the one that's in favor of an NWO (Note your signature). You're always making posts about how these "Hethans" who don't agree with you should be cursed. You seem to think that we should all live by your set of morals, and that you are some-how higher up and more "Rightous" that the rest of us.

[Edited on 19-9-2004 by Herman]

This same question can be asked of the U.S. and its occupation of Iraq:

Why doesn't the U.S. leave Iraq? After all, how the hell can you create a peaceful democracy by using military force? Blowing up the very civilians you "saved" from Saddam certainly does not help in creating a peaceful environment for American-brand democracy to flourish. Not to mention that no WMD stockpiles were found, no Al Qaeda ties, and the very war is considered illegal by the United Nations (not to mention that all treaties are considered a part of the Consitution of the United States, making this war Illegal in the U.S. as well). The U.S. should have left the country long ago and our leaders should be facing war crimes charges as I type this if our very Constitution has any meaning left in it.

Back to the topic.

Moore stays to promote his ideas to try to change society as he sees it. Just like the United States is allegedly staying in Iraq to try to change society as they see it. The difference is that Moore fights with film not guns. Herman is to Moore as the insurgency in Iraq is to the occupation force.

And then of course there is the money issue.

Michael Moore promotes the very fibre of Americana: capitalism. He has profited BIG TIME from what he does. Why should he leave when he makes tons of cash here? This is also the real reason for the United States being in Iraq. Capitalism is the driving force behind both the U.S. military and Moore. If there was no money involved in either subject, neither would be pursuing the goals they have gone after. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

[Edited on 20-9-2004 by heelstone]

The Facts:

1. We all have to make a living, regardless of what we do.
   
2. I think of hundreds of other people not worthy of living in this country who prove it on a daily basis
   
3. His comments are truly meant merely as constructive criticism but seen by the right wing as bashing
   
4. He's joking...really...he is - he's joking aroun with a sense of humor - is this SO unheard of? Look at Richard Pryor!!!!
   
5. He hasn't moved....he won't move...his love for America is clearly pronounced in his work - he just has a few issues
   
6. Don't we all joke about ourselves in private?? Well - this man has no privacy...and he has no shame - so what's he to do?
   
7. He challenges the system without fear or concern and this is taken to be a concern when in fact we all should pose the same questions in our local surroundings...
   
8. F 9/11 made Moore a paltry sum of money compared to what he could have made had the profits not been donated by Disney...
   

I don't worship the man - I agree and disagree...but I admire his wit and compassion - I see his "hate" as a true "love" for this country...

Personally...I fall into that group of people who live here b/c they have to...I've lived in Europe and far prefer it over America, but for the time being I have to make the most of what I'm provided...some day I'll leave this corrupt and destitute country for someplace with a little more dignity and self-respect....

Herman its quite simple,

Moore loves his country and wants whats best for it... the problem is what his country (which happens to be your country) has become isnt what it originally stood for and thus he is being a true patriot by trying to change it. Its people who blindly allow their country to become a corrupt money-hungry and bloodthirsty nation that are unpatriotic, as they are allowing their country to become less than what it could be. I think Moore should stay in the US, coz even though i dont agree with everything he says and does, i like the fact he has woken people up and made them reaslise that the US of A isnt all that nice and wonderful after all

Novus Ordo Seclorum means. . .

www.wordiq.com...

This link provides an adequate explanation of why I chose this motto for my sig.

It's not the "New World Order." It's something secret that I follow that comes from Christ.

How old are you Herman? I'm 29. You seem like you are about 19 or 20.

Arkaleus

Heelstone:

What we're doing in Iraq is (We're supposed to be doing anyway) fighting WITH the people not AGAINST them. We don't just go blowing up random buildings *chuckle*. We strategically target buildings with terrorists. The Iraqi's are in this fight with us too. That's a different debate, for a different time. I just don't think that Michael Moore likes America. I think he stays because he can make a whole lot of money off of this system that he says he hates. I don't agree that this country has become anything horrible. The founding fathers wanted it to grow coast to coast, so it did. Think about how we won the revolutionary war, with violence. Following that, more wars. And we're now using it to try and help people of other countries that aren't free. Again, going off topic here. I might want to re-phrase my title. I didn't mean that Michael Moore should at all be made to leave, forced to leave, or even really encouraged to leave. I just meant that it'd probably be better for him to not live in a country he dis-likes so much.

Arkaleus:

I'm 17.

You have to use the system, to beat the system.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
You have to use the system, to beat the system.

So basically, he's a hypocrite? He uses the system that he's insulting to make millions? Yeah, I think I'd be safe to say he's a hypocrite .

Originally posted by Herman

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
You have to use the system, to beat the system.

So basically, he's a hypocrite? He uses the system that he's insulting to make millions? Yeah, I think I'd be safe to say he's a hypocrite

.

I seriously doubt that Moore is in it for the money--look at the guy. He lives in modest apartment on the Upper West Side in Manhattan, certainly doesn't spend his money on clothes, and if he was out on a shopping spree with his cash, I'm sure it would be all over the papers. Another thing, he took Fahrenheit 9/11 out of Oscar contention on the outside chance that it could be shown on TV before the elections. If he was about money/glory, that never would have happened.

I think that Michael Moore truly understands what it means to be American because he has spent his life getting his message out there (and put his life in danger in the process.) He targets corruption, de-humanization and hypocrisy--I don't think that makes him anti-business, anti-government, or anti-religion, but these organizations do lend themselves to investigation just by their nature.

If you've watched "The Awful Truth", he put together segments that showed footage of a religious fanatic that brings bands of protesters to the funerals of gay men who have died from AIDS; an HMO that refused a man a pancreas transfer and essentially sentenced him to death (and ultimately forced the HMO to recind the decision, saving the mans life); brought a "Voicebox Choir" of people who had to have their larynx's removed due to years of living with a smoker to sing Christmas carols to the tobacco PR execs who still claimed that second-hand smoke isn't harmful; and exposed Holiday Inn when instead of allowing all of the illegal aliens they had been underpaying for years to unionize, they had them all deported. Is that anti-business? I don't think so--I just think that it is anti-abuse.

His methods are over the top and some people may see his use of satire as being too heavy-handed, but it is an effective way to get his message across to the MTV generation. I don't agree with his stance on everything, but I do commend him for having the guts to publicize issues that most of the media won't even touch.

wow i would never of tought i would see the day Micheal Moore is portrayed as the ideal american. He is by no means that. Yes he may live modestly now bcause the press is all over him give him 5 years and i guarentee if hes outta the limelight he will get a big ass house and live the high life. THis man is all about making moeny. Its never been about the truth. I mean look at F/911 its a blatent attempt to mil the american citizens to fill his pockets. yes there was some good points in it but it was no blowling for columbine. TH epromotion and everything. If he really wanted the truth and all he wanted was for the truth to be exposed he coudl ahve spent money on promoting it then giving it away free and just been like if ur like it and support this buy it when it come on dvd or donate here. But no he offers the truth at 8 bucks a pop at ur local theater. Hmmm when they showed micheal moore at the RNC i truly did see a rich fat whiteguy.

Is the ideal American, a rich person? No, saying Moore is the "ideal" American is ludicris. He has made money off of lies and distortion. Is he shoveling out money to feed the homeless? No.

If anyone bases his/her opnion off of one of his books or films, they are a complete idiot.

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
The Facts:

1. We all have to make a living, regardless of what we do.
   
2. I think of hundreds of other people not worthy of living in this country who prove it on a daily basis
   
3. His comments are truly meant merely as constructive criticism but seen by the right wing as bashing
   
4. He's joking...really...he is - he's joking aroun with a sense of humor - is this SO unheard of? Look at Richard Pryor!!!!
   
5. He hasn't moved....he won't move...his love for America is clearly pronounced in his work - he just has a few issues
   
6. Don't we all joke about ourselves in private?? Well - this man has no privacy...and he has no shame - so what's he to do?
   
7. He challenges the system without fear or concern and this is taken to be a concern when in fact we all should pose the same questions in our local surroundings...
   
8. F 9/11 made Moore a paltry sum of money compared to what he could have made had the profits not been donated by Disney...
   

I don't worship the man - I agree and disagree...but I admire his wit and compassion - I see his "hate" as a true "love" for this country...

Personally...I fall into that group of people who live here b/c they have to...I've lived in Europe and far prefer it over America, but for the time being I have to make the most of what I'm provided...some day I'll leave this corrupt and destitute country for someplace with a little more dignity and self-respect....

I dunno if anyone read this or not...no one's tackeled it yet tho...I'm sure someone can shoot them down...let me add a few while I'm at it:

1. What is an "ideal" American? Do we not seem to pride ourselves on overanalization?
   
2. When the question of "Moore" is at hand, often others view support as pure idolatry - there is a difference
   
3. To say that everything he claims is simply a mountain of BS is a shallow and uninformed viewpoint...
   

People just want him out because they are afraid of his point of view and his popularity...

We could argue that George Dubya should leave the USA coz he's bad for the country on more or less the same amount of reasons... i'm sure he wont (not that any other country wants him).

Moore has opened the eyes of America to see that the country isnt all sparkle and glory, this scares the people who want to believe the country is sparkle and glory so they backlash against him (which in turn build his support base even more). The more you guys bash moore the more people will look into why you hate him so much, thus the more supporters he will get.

Or is it the other way around and the people who base their opnions soley on his propoganda the ones who are brainwashed?

dude i dont see teh country as perfect we are far from it. Im not scared of micheal moore or anythign he has the say. Even if it was true he hs zero credibility because even soem ppl i know that support him dont agree with him on F/911 on alot of things. It was there to make money thats it. It dont matter who he was attackin if its bush or whomeever. If he gets dirt on someoen he will stretch it and morphit until it turns into cash that can go in his poocket. Also JM i do agree with soem of his arguments especially his idea of the media in BFC. But inreality look at Moores stand. Watch BFC and F/911 again everyone. Moore has a very close resemblence with communist idea. Just curious if anyone else noticed this.

and enron how does europe have more self respect then the USA please clarify that for me cause i woudl really liek to knwo.

[Edited on 9^20^04 by Quicksilver]