I am slightly confused. Looking for Info

So you think a pilot has systems on his/her plane that will run without their knowledge, that is what you are saying?

Absolutely.

Originally posted by Aqualung2012
reply to post by tsurfer2000h

 

one word: compartmentalization.

that word is the biggest reason for my beliefs in many theories which people state the truth could not be with held... just remember assembly lines, you insert part A, I add part B, she adds part C, and in the end we have product Z

just because the right hand is oblivious to the left, does not mean thy are not operated by the same brain

reply to post by skuly


thank you for the videos...i linked one right after you did lol. beat me to it

reply to post by Aqualung2012


i like the analogy. i may use it in debate sometime. thank you

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE

back to the topic at hand, people said agent orange wasnt real. they asked who was spraying it and where did it come from.... well, my grandfather died from complications from exposure to agent orange. turns out it was very real

Your history is weak. The use of agent orange in Viet Nam was not a secret. It's use in Laos and Cambodia was denied...for obvious reasons.
Agent Orange

reply to post by Phage


lol weak? that was an off topic remark that i did not elaborate on or go in to specifics about.... me thinks you are searching for things to belittle.

your history seems pretty solid, so please understand we are on the same page as each other. that is not what the op is debating though, hence the very skimmed and abbreviated info

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE

You used agent orange as an analog to "chemtrails", saying it was a secret program. It was not. Like "chemtrails", it would have been impossible to conceal such a program.

Originally posted by Aqualung2012

.....
Now, this may be over-stepping my boundaries here, but I would suggest ATS change it's slogan from "Deny Ignorance," to "Embrace Possibility!" ....

I cannot resist but to reply...

There are always possibilities... to deny them is the height of ignorance. To create a systematic rationale for denying possibilities is the height of arrogant ignorance.

------------------------

But to return to topic (this part's not for you Aqualung2012):

I will say that even if the entire notion of chemtrails is some sort of exercise in urban fantasy there is something most noteworthy in its persistence (pun intended). There is a reason for it's repeated surfacing in the media... why would that be?

About "pilots" having the answers.... can't abide the idea that pilots are characterized as rocket scientists and tech-gods who all have an intimate understanding of fluid mechanics, combustion chemistry, aerodynamics, and atmospheric physics.... just like all "meteorologists" are NOT all weather scientists; we have to acknowledge that the "voice of authority" swung around here like the stone tablets of Mt Sinai are as much to be questioned as the 'looney' observations that us clearly unedjumacated numb skulls make when we see checkerboard lines lingering in the sky over our heads for hours on end. Pilots are often no more engaged in the aircraft they fly as the bus driver is the vehicle he is driving. Meteorologists can't do much more than relay what their database of material indicates - let alone what they are told to say. Assertions based upon such supposition that "they would know" does not add to the debate.. it simply interferes with the pursuit of answers.

Are chemtrails real? Something is real... That some insist that the reason we see these things is because we are ignorant is an example of why we don't find out about ongoing covert research until the damage is done.

No one would have believed the US Army would disperse aerosol biological weapons in heavily populated cities for the sake of research - so that must be false too... except they filmed it... and admitted to it.... 50 years after the fact. Injecting Syphilis into unknowing patients.... nah! Exposing the mentally incompetent to lethal radiation... why never.. the doctors would have said something, or the nurses... or the orderlies. Creating a private bank to take ownership of all the nations gold and control inflation and credit levels... no way would OUR leaders allow that right?

I don't know what these things we call chemtrails are... but I know what I have seen, and it was not "normal" contrails.

Sadly, there is opportunity to prosper from the frustrations arising out of 'no answers' from a definitive source, so caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is a valid caution to hold to.

They key to little mysteries like this is "means - motive - and opportunity." Which is what makes the theory weak. What would be the point of chemtrails? Why do it at all? These are the answers that we lack, hence their existence will not be taken seriously; which is fair enough... but if we are seeking answers to something you don't take seriously... why are you interjecting at all?

I don't fault people for not 'believing'.... but the ridicule is just obtuse arrogant and repugnant...

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by Aqualung2012

.....
Now, this may be over-stepping my boundaries here, but I would suggest ATS change it's slogan from "Deny Ignorance," to "Embrace Possibility!" ....

I cannot resist but to reply...

There are always possibilities... to deny them is the height of ignorance. To create a systematic rationale for denying possibilities is the height of arrogant ignorance.

------------------------

But to return to topic (this part's not for you Aqualung2012):

I will say that even if the entire notion of chemtrails is some sort of exercise in urban fantasy there is something most noteworthy in its persistence (pun intended). There is a reason for it's repeated surfacing in the media... why would that be?

About "pilots" having the answers.... can't abide the idea that pilots are characterized as rocket scientists and tech-gods who all have an intimate understanding of fluid mechanics, combustion chemistry, aerodynamics, and atmospheric physics.... just like all "meteorologists" are NOT all weather scientists; we have to acknowledge that the "voice of authority" swung around here like the stone tablets of Mt Sinai are as much to be questioned as the 'looney' observations that us clearly unedjumacated numb skulls make when we see checkerboard lines lingering in the sky over our heads for hours on end. Pilots are often no more engaged in the aircraft they fly as the bus driver is the vehicle he is driving. Meteorologists can't do much more than relay what their database of material indicates - let alone what they are told to say. Assertions based upon such supposition that "they would know" does not add to the debate.. it simply interferes with the pursuit of answers.

Are chemtrails real? Something is real... That some insist that the reason we see these things is because we are ignorant is an example of why we don't find out about ongoing covert research until the damage is done.

No one would have believed the US Army would disperse aerosol biological weapons in heavily populated cities for the sake of research - so that must be false too... except they filmed it... and admitted to it.... 50 years after the fact. Injecting Syphilis into unknowing patients.... nah! Exposing the mentally incompetent to lethal radiation... why never.. the doctors would have said something, or the nurses... or the orderlies. Creating a private bank to take ownership of all the nations gold and control inflation and credit levels... no way would OUR leaders allow that right?

I don't know what these things we call chemtrails are... but I know what I have seen, and it was not "normal" contrails.

Sadly, there is opportunity to prosper from the frustrations arising out of 'no answers' from a definitive source, so caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is a valid caution to hold to.

They key to little mysteries like this is "means - motive - and opportunity." Which is what makes the theory weak. What would be the point of chemtrails? Why do it at all? These are the answers that we lack, hence their existence will not be taken seriously; which is fair enough... but if we are seeking answers to something you don't take seriously... why are you interjecting at all?

I don't fault people for not 'believing'.... but the ridicule is just obtuse arrogant and repugnant...

very well said and insightful. thank you.

it would appear to me that perhaps i am not asking the right questions in my research...

maybe instead of asking for definitive proof...i should ask as you have stated...how could one do this, why would one do this, and does any individual or group have the opportunity to do so

but i also feel that these three criteria could be met by the idea of chemtrails:

one could do this with available resources and aircraft

one could do this for many reasons (blocking radiation from the sun, poison the population for genocide, it could be humanitarian or malicious)

one could have the opportunity depending on the amount of control or influence they have over region governments, to fly this op in specific regions.

Originally posted by JAsay1LOVE
The article I came across to really bring this issue to the front of my mind was this...translate.google.com...://www.kurir-info.rs/planeta/tajni-projek at-bele-kuce-148802.php&act=url

In the article, it tells of John P Holdren admitting to 16 years of geo-engineering..."He admitted that the atmosphere is treated barijumovim salts, aluminum dioxide and other toxic compounds" (source article)

I can't use the URL sorry - but AFAIK Holdren has not ever said we have been using geo-engineering for 16 years - rather he is on record as saying that he is open to it being used if it is ever needed - which is something quite different!

Eg here -

Originally posted by Maxmars
[
No one would have believed the US Army would disperse aerosol biological weapons in heavily populated cities for the sake of research - so that must be false too... except they filmed it... and admitted to it.... 50 years after the fact.

when was that?

Injecting Syphilis into unknowing patients.... nah! Exposing the mentally incompetent to lethal radiation... why never.. the doctors would have said something, or the nurses... or the orderlies. Creating a private bank to take ownership of all the nations gold and control inflation and credit levels... no way would OUR leaders allow that right?

We all know that secrets are kept, and diabolical actions performed - but these being done int the past is not actually evidence that anything is being done NOW.

I don't know what these things we call chemtrails are... but I know what I have seen, and it was not "normal" contrails.

Why not?

Why can't anyone give good solid reasons why "these trails" are not contrails??

Because they last more than 1,10, 20, 30 or whatever minutes?? That is patently not true - contrails have been recorded as lasting for hours at least as far back as 1940.

Because there are more than 1 of them in the sky at a time?? Why wouldn't multiple a/c make multiple contrails?? B-17 fleets did over Germany in 1944 and 1945 - why wouldn't airliners today?

I don't fault people for not 'believing'.... but the ridicule is just obtuse arrogant and repugnant...

well if the "proof" and "evidence" wasn't so completely absent actual value, if so much of it wasn't deliberate disinfo, if the cries of "how much are you getting paid?", and "shill" weren't the standard reply whenever a chemmie runs into actual facts then perhaps there would be more politeness.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Because there are more than 1 of them in the sky at a time?? Why wouldn't multiple a/c make multiple contrails?? B-17 fleets did over Germany in 1944 and 1945 - why wouldn't airliners today?

Here is a few pics to help you out...



nutbarsnz.files.wordpress.com...



geocities-pentagon.com...

If anyone needs more just google contrails in WWII and hit the images. Very easy and very interesting.
Thought it might help with your reply.

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


I'm sure it will help

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

We all know that secrets are kept, and diabolical actions performed - but these being done int the past is not actually evidence that anything is being done NOW.

i appreciate the information and pictures. I would have just one argument still..admittedly speculative, but-

if information does show these chemicals are being found in increased amounts in specific regions; humoring the idea these are toxic "chemtrails", your own words could be used as the argument for your opposition. For if we all know secrecy existed, and diabolical actions were performed, and the same regime is in practice today, then why should we assume tptb would not do the same today.

think of operation paper clip; we know of the actions of many German officers in WWII, they were brought here, not held accountable in court for their crimes (plum island, nasa, many other projects). To me that sounds like the opposite of an end.

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE

after watching the following two documentaries

Sorry but, I am well familiar with both "WITWATS" and with Rosalind Peterson.

WITWATS is loaded with nonsense (as the ATS thread I linked to conclusively shows).

Rosalind Peterson is simply mistaken, and is equally ill-informed. For example, she used as "proof" some airplane ground tracks (the ones she presents in yellow) when all that those truly were were small airplanes flying in the traffic patterns at local airports.

She has NO idea what she is talking about....and is spreading disinformation as a result.

reply to post by JAsay1LOVE

if information does show these chemicals are being found in increased amounts in specific regions; humoring the idea these are toxic "chemtrails", your own words could be used as the argument for your opposition.

No.
Even if elevated levels were found in specific regions using valid testing techniques, other sources of contamination would have to be considered as well as "chemtrails".

reply to post by ProudBird


thank you, ill consider my sources next time, and keep looking for more "credible" material. I can appreciate your stance on the matter, for imo, one should seek to gain knowledge for themselves. They do not need to validate their intelligence to any other individual. I believe you to be an intelligent, most likely honest, person; however, the stance that chemtrails are completely bunk does not hold as firm with myself.

If you're saying chemtrails definitely exist, as well as we know contrails do then, who cares if we're misidentifying them once in a while? We're not the ones on trial here.

So let's all agree we are wrong every now and then. And......?????? Now what? Crucify us and ignore the problem?
It certainly doesn't absolve the problem does it?

But the mere FACT that they exist is where the problem starts and stops.
We're just part of their: confuse-the-public-smeer-campaign .

Don't forget: Divide and conquer. That technique has worked for millennium.

reply to post by Phage


point taken, but its the same argument for much of the anti-smoking campaigns. They show numbers of all of the people whom die from smoking, and smoking related illnesses, but they dont include the percentage of those same victims whom were obese, had poor diets, did not live a healthy life style, other illnesses.

Correlation Does Not Equal Causation

Agreeably that means that just because the chemicals are there, does not mean the chemtrails are...but also, just because other sources could be contributing to the rising numbers, you cannot justifiably rule out chemtrails

reply to post by Human_Alien

But the mere FACT that they exist is where the problem starts and stops. We're just part of their: confuse-the-public-smeer-campaign .

Well I would love to see this FACT you talk about?

If scientific fact is now considered a smear campaign then everything we were taught in our lives in science class was just a lie, dang I new I was wasting time going to science class...

Damn you science classes, Damn you...