WTC 7 was IMPLODED : irrefutable seismic evidence from LDEO and NIST itself.

Sigh.

Can we Please Stop the Personal Sniping and Address the Topic.

Everyone has a right to express their opinions.





*Do Not respond to this post in thread*

Thank you JBird for closing down my 2 pages long Sequel thread after I have posted there all the relevant info in my opening and rebuttal posts :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

At least I managed to repost all my original texts from the Study of 9/11 Forum in an opening post from a sequel thread.
The attention span of the casual visitor/passer-by for this reformed playground for JREFers and misguided patriots is probably not longer than it costs them to read one page. So, thanks again, since that thread would have undoubtedly gone the same road as this one.

Are we, the conspiracy researchers, in fact still writing in a 9/11 Conspiracy forum?
I see sparse posts by conspiracy-backers, while the rest is one great JREF-visitors ballroom dance around the hard facts while avoiding them as the Plague.

As usual not a shimmer of attention to the real hard facts laid before them, and if they try to look as if they possess any kind of authority on the subject, they come up with these absolute hilarious posts like the one I am now going to address.

This is the last to be addressed post in there, by -PLB- , that I did not get the time to refute in there :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

posted on 2/3/12 @ 15:17 Originally posted by LaBTop :
Story 2005, NIST brings out the Cianca photo, atomic clock timestamped at 17:20:46 as their starting point event of the full, total collapse sequence event.

So that camera has an atomic clock build in? Cool story.
In the other thread I already said I would stop replying so I wont ask for a source for this.
edit on 2-3-2012 by -PLB- because: (no reason given)

As usual you did not read my reposts in my Sequel thread, and my earlier explanation in this thread.
In there you would have stumbled over the links to the NIST report numbers, that extensively ( a hundred or more pages) covered the methods NIST used to get atomic clock times connected to all the photo and video material in their 9/11 database.

LaBTop : For NIST's timing techniques for 9/11 events, recorded by photo or video equipment, and the mentioned margins of error by NIST, see :
wtc.nist.gov...

In short, NIST declared the exact time for the collapse start of WTC 7, derived from numerous video clips from television broadcasts, which were time clocked by NIST's own atomic clocks. I told you this already in one of my posts in this thread.

They took a day-long video from CBS or so, which time stamps that were shown on-screen, were known to NIST to have been always coupled to the NIST own atomic clock servers.

After that, they were able to connect all major events you could see unravel in that day-long video tape, to those tape dubbed-in and visible on the TV-screens globally, shown time stamps in the right corners.

Thus, when you saw the east-penthouse roof denting, they noted the dubbed-in time on-screen, and then printed that time stamp on the Cianca photo they knew they possessed some time later, after they found it back.
Then they had to wait for another 8.3 seconds in that same video, and there the parapet roof line of the whole top of WTC 7 started to sink fluently down, while during their first 2.3 seconds, it is irrefutably proved by David Chandler, that that was a free fall collapse sequence, meaning that no resistance was met by the top part of the building thundering down. He also proved to NIST that a 14 floors space must have been absent down in the building, to make a free path for the top part to reach that free fall speed at the end of those 2.3 seconds.
A mass is accelerating when collapsing, and those 2.3 secs showed undeniable a free fall acceleration.

reply to post by GenRadek on page 10 its bottom part.


Read the NIST report, and you will find the description of the massively reinforced triple and DOUBLE maintenance floors in each of the Twin Towers. And they had damn thick steel re-bar reinforced concrete floors too.
Not the type of thin concrete that were spread on the other floors their truss plates, those were only a few cm thick. With much thinner re-bars in the concrete layer.

And just enter WTC in the picture search of Google and you will find myriads of photos from the core column construction of the Twin Towers. I can imagine a gravitational collapse of damaged floors gliding around that core until the intact floors stop them.
But not that massive core falling into itself. ALL the way down through all those columns and floors, totally undamaged by a plane or raging fires. Cold, strong huge and thick metal that had always uphold all the floors above them.
Like I said, the damaged floors I can imagine partially collapse on top of the intact ones, when no outside force were in play. What we saw however, was a clear demo.

~~Maybe you can show me where the WTCs had steel reinforced concrete columns in their design.~~

The old trick to lay words in my keyboard I never typed in my life. The 47 massive steel core columns for each tower with their cross beams connecting all these columns on every floor, are magnitudes stronger than the Windsor tower`s core. They were all fire retarding spray painted. Concrete encapsulated would have even been better, but that would have made the design not possible.

~~did NOT have massive concrete technical floors like Windsor's.~~

Your mistake, not mine. It had, more of them, and they were double ones.

~~Also, The buckling and collapses began within 2 1/2 hours of fire ignition,`~~

YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THE WHOLE PROCESS TOOK MANY HOURS AT The Windsor.
That were a few exterior columns which started to buckle. The real collapse happened much later and was spread over hours, not 13 seconds like at the Twin Towers.

~~Man oh man, LaBTop, you have serious gaps in your memory and research, not to mention critical thinking. WTC 1 and 2 were impacted, had severe damage done AND it had uncontrolled fires that spread over multiple floors. It is no wonder they fell faster than an undamaged structure with a far slower fire spread.~~

The WTC fires went mostly up. And died then down when the furniture was gone. The jet fuel was already long consumed or burned at impact. Smoke shortly before both impacts was dark, meaning oxygen starved dying down fires. Fires at the impacted floors were already nearly out again. That fireman should not have reported that only two pockets of fire could be managed with two water lines. It made the planners nervous, since a burned out top is not so logical to bring down with explosives. Someone flipped the master switch prematurely.
The Windsor fires spread through the whole tower, they went through the original set on fire floor its gaps, and in the end reached nearly the ground levels.

~~we jump from one item to the next and back, when cornered on one. ~~

Dear man, I feel not at the least cornered at all, especially since none of you have even slightly made me nervous while bringing some serious counter research to the plate.
The only things all of yopu can offer, are insults from page one on, and not a sign of respect and good arguments. Most of them are outright lies. But we are used to this kind of sloppy debating by you folks.

~~Cutter charges hidden in water containers. ~~

Well, you really never heard of that? The well known wall breaching units, never heard or saw them? They clearly used a big one to make that entry hole in the C-ring of the Pentagon.
Search ATS with ``LaBTop wall breaching unit`` and thou shalt be enlightened.
One of the added effects is muffling of the explosion sound.
And a cutter charge is a thin rod of copper with a layer of HE in it. Ignited with a remotely triggered electrically charged thingy. Do you perhaps think that a cutter charge will not ignite when I hang it in a water container? It will, and the more water is on one side, the more the explosive power will go to the opposite side. Spouting a fountain of water direction the other side where most of the water was : hey, look, a SQUIB.

~~Now again, are you even remotely aware of how a thermobaric weapon works? Also are you aware that thermobaric weapons are practically USELESS when used underwater, or surrounded by water? Do you know why? But far be it for me to poke holes in your fantas... I mean, theory. ~~

You overdone it. I didn't talk about ThB`s used inside water containers, I talked about conventional cutter charges in water, and it really does not need to be that much water, it only needs to slow down the explosion on one side, so that all the power goes the other way, study the wall breaching unit.

reply to post by LaBTop


And yes, I am very aware how REAL thermo BARIC weapons work, not alike you.
You really constantly mix-up the data of an FAE with a real thermo BARIC weapon.

Question : where do you think does the term BARIC connects to the inner workings of a ThB ?

And I already gave you a link to my 100 to 350 posts or so about thermobaric subjects. So who would be the one in the know, you, or me?
Do you want a recipe for a home made thermobaric weapon? Just as that other guy is phishing for?
If you would have followed my advice and had read all my links, you would have found it already.
But that one is not really BARIC, that`s quite expensive to make.

PS: moderator, did you send my erased post text to Djarums? I understand it to be off topic, but it makes me wonder what he thinks of it.

reply to post by GenRadek


~~But there really is no sound of explosives going off. Much less any thermobaric weapons or explosives.~~

Did you miss the deep rumble sound after 1 second in the official NIST video of the WTC 7 collapse?
And are you still not seeing and hearing the evidence that it must have been a VERY impressive sound when you would have been able to stand near it?
Because in the same video with the same audio settings, you do not hear anything from the total collapse of the building, starting 3 plus 8.3 seconds later.

Strange ain`t it, that when NIST says that 1 column snapping can bring a whole building down, with multiple snapping of the rest of the many columns, that you do not hear anything from that massive multiple snapping of much more than one column.

Logic rules that the accompanying sound of the following snapping of all columns would be 40 times louder perhaps, but let`s say at least two times louder.
There is nothing like that to hear in that official NIST video. NOTHING.
All those columns and beams and exterior columns broke while that camera did not register any sound of that event.
But it did register the first event, ONE column breaking........
And it kept registering through the whole video, the much louder voices of the bystanders, and the noise where they stood. So do not come up with auto-shut down of the camera`s audio regulator, since then we would not have heard the voices anymore.

Rick Seagal is a whole other ATS thread to spent on. Which I and others already did, years ago.

Originally posted by LaBTop
You overdone it. I didn't talk about ThB`s used inside water containers, I talked about conventional cutter charges in water,

Yes you were addressing Thermometric cutter charges (your delu.... er invention). That is until you were caught not know what you're talking about...

Here's the quote:

Originally posted by LaBTop
But that wasn't used. It wasn't a normal demolition, it was a secret demo. They only needed the first cut to be as silent as can be. WATER. Cheap, neutral to any bystander, if camouflaged well enough in every day types of containing vessels. White smoke, puffs, squibs can also mean steam instead of smoke.

Most chance of being used are thermobaric mixtures inside the huge boxed-in columns, that scattered them like glass.
With some well prepared computing, the blast master would have calculated the exact mixture components weights, to achieve the best crack for the lest bang. And they will have done tests first, many of them.

Remember, it was a secret demolition. First goal was at all costs to camouflage the first cutter charge its sound profile. Thus go super low frequency, and use extremely fine dispersed thermobaric mixtures, just enough power to break the intra-molecular steel bonds, and no more. The weight of the building does the rest.
Test, test and test again on identical boxed-in column lengths, until the ultimate desired goal was achieved, cracking of the columns, with no spouting through the cracks of high pressure gas waves, simpler called sound.
then one big thermobaric charge in the cellar, and there it goes down.

I trust you do know what that is known as?

reply to post by GenRadek


~~An FAE is a thermobaric device using liquid fuel.~~

Again, you make the same mistake. An FAE is a FUEL and AIR explosive, nothing more. As you showed in your own linked videos, they ignited the FA fuel mist with a burning stick set in the soil 2 meters away.

A ThB is a much more sophisticated device, where a THERMO (a very cold finely dispersed gas, and more than one super hot but tiny HE explosive is used in several stages of the total events before the real deal explodes) and a BARIC device that set and regulates the events. If there is no baric instrument used, you can`t speak about a thermobaric explosion.

And there is a thread in my list, where we talk about a sharp disk shaped explosion front, that is able to cut through steel. That type comes in a special formed container, that bleeds open in the first stage as a petal, and forms the sharp disk shaped gas/metal mist cloud.
Not the huge immense chaotic big gas/liquid FAE cloud you showed in your video as a ThB device.

And no, not a ThB in water, but a cutter charge in, or backed by water.
But perhaps huge ThB`s in the empty basements, surrounded by water sealed in the elevator shafts, to brake the back of those 47 huge columns. But conventional big cutter charges inside the water would be more effective there.
ThB`s will have been used high up in the Twin Towers, you saw the evenly blowing out of the windows all around both buildings, at one or two floors most, at the moment of collapse initiation.

ThB`s used in a buildings floor space will enhance its own explosive force due to the corners, the explosive fronts enhance each other at the corners of a floor because of the reflections there. The magnitude of their power peaks nearly double there.

You linked to a blogger page from an Indian guy that has a hobby.
The poster does seem to have collected bits and pieces from several sources, but it`s not a coherent thermobaric description, mostly modern FAE`s.

He nowhere mentioned the baric device that can be preset for the wanted pressure effect, and also not the piezoelectric ignition device.
He got the anaerobe and aerobe stages, but calls it aerobic, like in the dancing classes.
That indicates the level of understanding.

The real strong ThB`s use chemicals that have their own oxygen atoms build-in in their molecules. And the time between the stages can add up to 10 seconds, not milliseconds, those are FAE`s.
And as already mentioned, flooding a boxed-in steel column with an ThB mixture, and then preset the baric device to the expending gases pressure-value that was found in lots of tests on equally strong columns in a test lab, will shatter the steel, but not blow it in all directions, its just enough compromised to collapse when the right final blow is dealt at the right place.

Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by LaBTop
You overdone it. I didn't talk about ThB`s used inside water containers, I talked about conventional cutter charges in water,

Yes you were addressing Thermometric cutter charges (your delu.... er invention). That is until you were caught not know what you're talking about...

Here's the quote:

Originally posted by LaBTop
But that wasn't used. It wasn't a normal demolition, it was a secret demo. They only needed the first cut to be as silent as can be. WATER. Cheap, neutral to any bystander, if camouflaged well enough in every day types of containing vessels. White smoke, puffs, squibs can also mean steam instead of smoke.

Most chance of being used are thermobaric mixtures inside the huge boxed-in columns, that scattered them like glass.
With some well prepared computing, the blast master would have calculated the exact mixture components weights, to achieve the best crack for the lest bang. And they will have done tests first, many of them.

Remember, it was a secret demolition. First goal was at all costs to camouflage the first cutter charge its sound profile. Thus go super low frequency, and use extremely fine dispersed thermobaric mixtures, just enough power to break the intra-molecular steel bonds, and no more. The weight of the building does the rest.
Test, test and test again on identical boxed-in column lengths, until the ultimate desired goal was achieved, cracking of the columns, with no spouting through the cracks of high pressure gas waves, simpler called sound.
Then one big thermobaric charge in the cellar, and there it goes down.

I trust you do know what that is known as?

edit on 2-3-2012 by Reheat because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-3-2012 by Reheat because: (no reason given)

Where did I mention thermobaric explosives in my first three quoted sentences above?
I did first mention them in my next box of text, my 4th sentence, and made clear that I meant them to be used inside the hollow steel columns. ~~ to achieve the best crack for the lest bang.~~
And I contemplated further on it in the rest of my text.

And yes, I do know what that is known as, what you attempt to do.
A smear campaign. By twitching my words, every time you have no real arguments left.

We are now 11 pages deep in my thread. In fact, when you count my Sequel thread of 2 important pages, we are now at page 13.

And when is ANYBODY going to ask REAL relevant questions, and brings up his own research, to try to counter my arguments?
I`ll tell you why.

I studied the 1000`s of pages from the huge 9/11 Investigation Report, the FEMA Report, the ASCE Pentagon Performance Report, the multiple huge NIST Reports, and made my choice during 10 and a half years of what really were smoking guns.
Use their own work to lay down the opposing evidence before them.

That`s this seismic work, and the 1.5 GB ASCE report work that I had completed and ready to post when it got deleted by an outside force.

Just a tip of the veil tilted away : The gouge visible on top of the generator trailer indicates a 70 to 80 degrees line of impact. While the ASCE report says 42 degrees.
That`s the difference between the NoC (70 to 80) and the officially pushed SoC flightpath (42) for flight AA 77 to the impact point. Yes, AA 77 impacted, but not under that angle of 42 degrees to the wall.

And I will reconstruct all that 1.5 GB of text-, photo-, drawing- and charts-material again, you don`t get me down. There`s not one ASCE report drawing that shows a 42 degrees angle of attack. It`s ranging from 70 to 51 to 30 to whatever, but never a 42 degrees attack angle.
And their whole team was allowed into the impacted Wings for a whopping FOUR hrs only!

All the ASCE members expressed their amazement about the lack of cooperation by the military, to find any sign of an aircraft part, anywhere, after they were allowed in.
The military Engineers had the whole impact area already meticulously cleaned up, there were only stripped columns and clean floors left to inspect.

Read the last few pages of that ASCE report, it will be clear as glass what these researchers found of their own investigation.

And you out there, the real believers in a 9/11 conspiracy, ask your questions, don`t be afraid that I treat you the same as these JREFers.
I won`t, since I know most real conspiracy researchers from these ten and a half years by heart now.
Sleep well.

Originally posted by LaBTop
***snip***
A ThB is a much more sophisticated device, where a THERMO (a very cold finely dispersed gas, and more than one super hot but tiny HE explosive is used in several stages of the total events before the real deal explodes) and a BARIC device that set and regulates the events. If there is no baric instrument used, you can`t speak about a thermobaric explosion.
***snip***

Pardon my poor english, but as far as I know the ThermoBaric is a word made up to describe the way the explosive works:

A thermic part referring to the hight temperature and a Baric part referring to the pressurewave.

Talking about a BARIC device (instrument) to set and regulate the events is wrong.

Unless off course that you refer to another type of explosive that has borrowed the name.

Originally posted by LaBTop
reply to post by GenRadek

 

Again, you make the same mistake. An FAE is a FUEL and AIR explosive, nothing more. As you showed in your own linked videos, they ignited the FA fuel mist with a burning stick set in the soil 2 meters away.

A ThB is a much more sophisticated device, where a THERMO (a very cold finely dispersed gas, and more than one super hot but tiny HE explosive is used in several stages of the total events before the real deal explodes) and a BARIC device that set and regulates the events. If there is no baric instrument used, you can`t speak about a thermobaric explosion.

I am trying hard not to laugh at your confusion regarding thermobaric explosives. For starters, let us break down the term: THERMO means heat. BARIC means pressure. Hence, heat and pressure. The main point of a thermobaric explosive. It has nothing to do with a "baric" device that detonates the explosive. I have no idea where you pulled this gem of a blooper, but, it shows your misunderstanding and confusion. Are you saying a barometric device is used to set off the fuel-air mixture? That makes zero sense. Barometric devices measure the pressure of the surrounding air, used in sky-diving, as well as depth charges. and in aircraft, to name a few. For explosives, barometric triggers are used for explosives that are used to set off a bomb during flight. You wouldnt use it in a static location. That makes zero sense. You have no idea what a thermobaric explosive is and it shows, so do not lecture me and others about it, if you have no idea yourself.

And there is a thread in my list, where we talk about a sharp disk shaped explosion front, that is able to cut through steel. That type comes in a special formed container, that bleeds open in the first stage as a petal, and forms the sharp disk shaped gas/metal mist cloud.
Not the huge immense chaotic big gas/liquid FAE cloud you showed in your video as a ThB device.

You are describing a cutter charge, which is not a thermobaric device. A cutter charge uses a jet of molten copper to blast through the steel. That is not a thermobaric device. A thermobaric device is an explosive which first expels a fine mist or powder that is mixed with the oxygen in the air, and then is ignited. It has nothing to do with cutter charges.

And no, not a ThB in water, but a cutter charge in, or backed by water.
But perhaps huge ThB`s in the empty basements, surrounded by water sealed in the elevator shafts, to brake the back of those 47 huge columns. But conventional big cutter charges inside the water would be more effective there.
ThB`s will have been used high up in the Twin Towers, you saw the evenly blowing out of the windows all around both buildings, at one or two floors most, at the moment of collapse initiation.

How would they survive the massive fires? Also, your initial post states that thermobaric devices were used in WTC7. Not in WTC 1 and 2. Now you say they were. But what you are describing are not thermobaric explosives but regular cutter charges.

You linked to a blogger page from an Indian guy that has a hobby.
The poster does seem to have collected bits and pieces from several sources, but it`s not a coherent thermobaric description, mostly modern FAE`s.

He nowhere mentioned the baric device that can be preset for the wanted pressure effect, and also not the piezoelectric ignition device.
He got the anaerobe and aerobe stages, but calls it aerobic, like in the dancing classes.
That indicates the level of understanding.

"BARIC" has to do with the massive over-pressure of the blast of the device. NOT some sort of "baric" device. Come on now LaBTop, your lack of understanding is showing. Why are you making up things, and then accusing someone else of not understanding?
The very description and break down of "Thermobaric"

thermobaric is derived from the Greek words for "heat" and "pressure": thermobarikos (θερμοβαρικός), from thermos (θερμός), hot + baros (βάρος), weight, pressure + suffix -ikos (-ικός), suffix -ic.

I cannot find anything about a "baric device" that sets off the explosive. Unless you are describing something completely different. If so, find the correct term. Real thermobaric explosives do not behave how you claim.

reply to post by GenRadek


You are the one showing to have not a shimmer of expertise about REAL thermobaric devices.
I gave you the links to my 305 posts on the subject, but you do not want to study and learn, your only goal is to quarrel.

A hint :
The baric device can be pre-set for the minimum pressure calculated for the first or second stage explosive pressure curve, that will set-off the compression of the lid of the piezoelectric device inside that baric device container.
Such that it will unleash its electric charge into the rolled out thin metal wire that rolled-out/sprung up from the bottom of the thermobaric device container in the first stage explosion, that blew the lid of that main container, with that wire welded to it, up in the air, and then that electric charge will jump over and charges the super cold gaseous cloud mist from the second stage explosive, or even the very finely metal powder mist-rich third gaseous stage.
Look up what triggers such a piezoelectric device....just pry open a modern lighter using such a small device, instead of a flint and steel roll. Push its small lever (it's 1 inch long) and feel the pain of the high voltage electric discharge in your fingers.

That's why BillyBob once asked me if a thermobaric explosion is accompanied by a static electricity front, since there were existing reports of it.
And yes it is, seconds before the main explosion goes off.
A familiar crackling sound in the air as when a Whimshurst static electricity machine is operated near you together with a Leiden flask to produce a small 'lightning' bolt.
There can be up to 10 seconds delay between the stages of a thermobaric device. But also only one second or even milliseconds, its all depending what type of thermobaric device you use.

A static electricity front as is reported by several survivors of the Oklahoma City bombing who were sitting behind their desk inside and felt and heard the static load in the air.
The same bombing, of which a secret Pentagon commission reported one year later to the upper brass, that 5 highly sophisticated bombs went off, instead of one crude ANFO bomb in a truck, by Timothy McVeigh and friends.

And on a side note, many of the so-called terrorist suicide bombers are false flag operations from agencies at work. "Destabilization effort" is the twin expression used together with "National Security" by these agencies.
Thermobarics are the easiest form of explosives to use in crowds. And very cruel ones.
I could make one from a 7Up can and a piezoelectric cigarette lighter part. And a few easy to get chemicals.
And I am not the only one capable of that.
I am definitely not ever interested to use such knowledge anymore.

EDIT : Your words :
"""BARIC" has to do with the massive over-pressure of the blast of the device. NOT some sort of "baric" device. Come on now LaBTop, your lack of understanding is showing. Why are you making up things, and then accusing someone else of not understanding? ""

Every explosive has as its main effect a massive over-pressure of the blast of the device.

You should have asked yourself first, why in heavens name they suddenly used the therm -baric for this new explosive device.
And a real thermobaric device first has an implosive effect, caused by the consumption of all the oxygen from the surrounding air, and then an explosive effect. Especially in closed spaces, like office buildings as the WTC's.
I have posted diagrams of ThB's explosive effects in office spaces. The corners magnify the effects and just there is the highest force exercised on the construction. Just as the banana-peel effect of the corners of the Twin Towers when they collapsed. And the first ring sized explosions all around the Twin Towers were starting at two floors under the plane impact points, which had no fire damage.
Time for you to do some overdue home work (ATS-search).