Conspiring Excuses causing us to not go to church

Well I'm not going to church this morning 'cause my wife is out of town and I don't want to fight the epic battle with my 3 sons to get them up and ready to go!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Here's my excuse.

Honesty is awesome. I have several excuses myself on a daily basis for many things.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I randomly attend a Baptist Church close to my house, and anytime I get some good fortune I try to tithe, but I can never become a member of the church, because I do not want to become a "Christian." I do not believe all of the things in the Bible, and I do not believe Christ is the 'only' way to the Father.

I think you're doing the right thing in not becoming a member as well as being an attendee. If the church isn't helping you progress, perhaps a discussion or five with the leadership there? Or seeking another church?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
So, I'm left with somewhat of a dilemma. There are no other decent churches in my area that interest me.

We're both internet savvy people, perhaps the idea of church shouldn't be limited only to the traditional brick-and-mortar.

Originally posted by Tecumte
An example of an early 'church' community along the lines of the Jewish 'separatists' such as the Essenes (and Yeshua/Jesus) that rejected the hypocracy and corruption of both Rome and their own 'men of authority' that set up their own separate communities, away from "The World', 'outcasts' with many residing near the banks of the Dead Sea and Jordan River.

How do modern day 'churches' compare???

Jesus wasn't anti-community, he was against the message they were teaching:

"I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret." John 18:20

“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:19-20

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
This is where my issues stem from. What is the word of god? For someone such as myself that believes there is enough evidence to suggest that the "word of god" is nothing more than the dictates of Man, I find it hard what to believe is god's word, and what is not.

I love a deep question leading to a deep discussion. A lot of people may try to thump someone on the head with a book (no matter what the belief) however one of the cool and interesting things I found out about believing in God is that a person can literally ask God. What is often misunderstood is that they believe that the response only comes from a booming voice from heaven as the clouds open up. While this could happen, this often was not my experience. Rather, answers seem to come one at a time from all sorts of directions after the asking. It may take some patience, or it may occur all at once, that's not for me to say. Here's what I can affirm however, even the Bible itself permissions believers to ask God.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." James 1:5

"Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22

Here's the hard part. Do you trust God enough to give you the answer when you ask?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
But I also believe in the underlying message that it teaches when the word is not clouded by Man's rhetoric. Including honesty, kindness, good will, community and spirituality....just to name a few examples.

You've got a great sense of what is right. Other questions to ask are, "how do you have this sense of what is right? Who gave it to you?"

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
If I wanted to find a place of worship that taught that, I could pick any religion I wanted and still get that. It is a basic tenant of human deceny, so why do I need a church at all?

That is something I've put to the test and is a journey we can only prove by doing ourselves.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
Living live according to basic principles would make all of us one step closer to what Jesus really taught. Not this politicized version we get today.

I agree politicking has no role here, but would like to point out there's a difference between what a lot of people assume Jesus says versus what Jesus actually says. For example, nowhere did Christ say, "God helps those who helps themselves". Ironically enough, it came from someone involved in politics, whereas Jesus says to help someone regardless of their abilities.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
Thanks for the discussion!

You're welcome and thanks for the contribution. This is turning into a very interesting thread.

.

reply to post by saint4God


Typing in a google search on why i should go to church brings up a few things. One lady mentions this among other things but this verse seems to be the main point which she bring up.

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.Hebrews 10:25

For some reason she seems to think that this verse seems to imply church yet can it not simply mean meeting up with others anywhere and speaking about the Lord? I cant seem to find a single verse that speaks of anyone needing to go to church. Because apparently it seems anywhere is worthy of being a church of God. I mean he does own this whole earth. The church isnt holy like the ark of the covenent its simply a building.

christianity.about.com...

Originally posted by blamethegreys
Well I'm not going to church this morning 'cause my wife is out of town and I don't want to fight the epic battle with my 3 sons to get them up and ready to go!

Hehe, I didn't mean to imply we're all required to attend church every Sunday. Believers are commanded however to have one day of rest.

Originally posted by vaelamin
Typing in a google search on why i should go to church brings up a few things. One lady mentions this among other things but this verse seems to be the main point which she bring up.

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.Hebrews 10:25

For some reason she seems to think that this verse seems to imply church yet can it not simply mean meeting up with others anywhere and speaking about the Lord? I cant seem to find a single verse that speaks of anyone needing to go to church. Because apparently it seems anywhere is worthy of being a church of God. I mean he does own this whole earth. The church isnt holy like the ark of the covenent its simply a building.

christianity.about.com...

I think this is well said, delving into the difference between church and Church. For those who enjoy the subtle nuances of our language, hopefully this will perk the senses. You don't have to go to church to attend Church but many find Church at church. What we're doing here now? Church, but not church. Of the two, I'd prefer Church and would like to attend it seven days a week, but church can light the fire of Church though it only occurs briefly. The kindling and the fire, one can spur the other.

as i read through the posts, I can relate to much of the non-christian rebuttals. But here's the deal.

What everyone needs to do is separate the truth claims with the behavior of the church.

What I mean by that is that Christianity has claims about the nature of reality and of absolute truth. Many people bring up things the "church" did and therefore can't be a part of it. But that's actually committing the genetic fallacy.

Behavior does not equal belief. There are hypocritical Christians, Atheists, Muslims, etc etc. But the truth claims of Christianity goes deeper.

All religions have tried to solve this problem humanity faces. Even philosophies have done this exact thing. But biblical Christianity told us it's a sin problem. To me, this makes the most sense. The worlds ill's is not a systematic issue, but a "man's heart" issue.

Second, I work at a church as an AV, but I don't agree with a lot of points in theology. But it doesn't mean I shouldn't be a part of the community of people.

Third, because Christianity has it's tentacles in history, philosophy, morality, ethics, faith, supernatural, paranormal, etc etc etc, it's actually the most complete worldview you will find. One needs to explore and not be convinced of anything.

It's ok to question everything. I applaud the people that do. I certainly did, but it made me a stronger Christian and I've only been one for about 5 years.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by vaelamin
Typing in a google search on why i should go to church brings up a few things. One lady mentions this among other things but this verse seems to be the main point which she bring up.

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.Hebrews 10:25

For some reason she seems to think that this verse seems to imply church yet can it not simply mean meeting up with others anywhere and speaking about the Lord? I cant seem to find a single verse that speaks of anyone needing to go to church. Because apparently it seems anywhere is worthy of being a church of God. I mean he does own this whole earth. The church isnt holy like the ark of the covenent its simply a building.

christianity.about.com...

I think this is well said, delving into the difference between church and Church. For those who enjoy the subtle nuances of our language, hopefully this will perk the senses. You don't have to go to church to attend Church but many find Church at church. What we're doing here now? Church, but not church. Of the two, I'd prefer Church and would like to attend it seven days a week, but church can light the fire of Church though it only occurs briefly. The kindling and the fire, one can spur the other.

Church-the people or the what's referred to as "the body of Christ"
church-the building, the institution, the traditions etc. These are sociological constructs.

Working at a fine dining, seafood dinner house, one of the amenities was a free drink after closing, at the bar. After a busy, frustrating and hectic dinner rush, cleaning up the aftermath, we would ask each other "Are you going to church tonight?"

We called that meeting of the minds and souls of our fellow workers, dishwashers, cooks, bussers, servers and bartenders "church." The owner tended the bar and we would laugh and cry, washing the night's anxiety away. We got to know each other, our hopes, hobbies, philosophies, etc. and confessed our sins openly as we forgave each other's transgressions.

It a was great salvo and bonding experience that allowed a new day to occur, the next working shift!

I want to share a story...I have not attended church since I was around 16 or so. My parents were very devout Baptists and my Father studied the Bible constantly (really, morning noon and night!). I often felt force fed organized religion and was made to participate in rituals and other programs that I did not understand or necessarily believe were right for me. Anyway nearly 30 years later my mother in law (my "husband" and I were not "legally" married nor did we exchange vows in a church but, we are married just the same, together 17 years, two children, home owners, declared to family and friends this is who we have chosen, etc.) was dying a horrible long death in the hospital from Cancer. The children had all gathered by her bed knowing this was the end. I of course was home with the children waiting, exhausted as I had been cooking and keeping clean clothes for the out of town family. It was very late and I took my Bible and began reading the Psalms. I just opened the book and asked out loud, "show me where to start". I began reading and after some time fell asleep. I was woken up by a voice right by my ear but, almost inside my head. It was neither male or female but it was loud, it said," wake up it's time to pray now". I did. I don't even remember what I prayed with my head bowed and about 5 minutes later, my husband called me and said, "it's over". I have not participated in church in over 30 years but, believe I live an acceptable life, we give to charity, help our family, teach our children about Kharma,and I believe whoever spoke to me to wake me up that night loves me regardless of the fact that I've not gone to church in a good while so, with that said, I believe you can still have a relationship with whomever is your God whether you go to a building on a particular day of the week and participate in rituals that some especially the young may not fully understand...I'm not saying it's not okay to do if that's your choice, I'm only saying I'm not convinced it's necessary for salvation or to have a relationship with the higher power. When our family gets together our talk often turns to our fellow community members and how we can help as well as current events and how we can maintain a good life with respect and help to others. Isn't that sort of what people do in church? All respects!

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Tecumte
An example of an early 'church' community along the lines of the Jewish 'separatists' such as the Essenes (and Yeshua/Jesus) that rejected the hypocracy and corruption of both Rome and their own 'men of authority' that set up their own separate communities, away from "The World', 'outcasts' with many residing near the banks of the Dead Sea and Jordan River.

How do modern day 'churches' compare???

Jesus wasn't anti-community, he was against the message they were teaching:

"I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret." John 18:20

“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:19-20

Yes, I agree Jesus appears to have taken his message at times directly to the people (and it got him killed as a seditionist) and too as you say wasn't perse 'anti-community', but many of the circles he ran in too were those who physcially separated themselves form the corruption of the world and many who led monastic lives and I think there is some compelling evidence that his '40 days and nights' period in 'the wilderness' was (just one example) in general a larger metaphor to this monastic phase of his life along with myriad desert allusions to this existance we find unedited in the NT.

reply to post by saint4God

Do you trust God enough to give you the answer when you ask?

That's a tough one! I guess it all depends on what you believe god is.

Is he the wrathful god as in the old testament, or is he the peaceful, loving god that Jesus talked of? There are many contradictory parts of the Bible that it is hard to interpret. I would not trust god if he was the "old testament" type.

"how do you have this sense of what is right? Who gave it to you?"

If you are open to alternative theories, one may think that something like right and wrong, being instinctual, could simply be programmed into us. The Creation story in the Christian faith aligns pretty well with much older civilizations such as the Sumerians and possibly Egypt.

In the case of the Sumerians, they talked about the DNA of the "gods" themselves (created in his image) being used in our eventual creation. Is right and wrong simply something that is part of who we are, even though we have a tendency to stray?

Therefore, if we were created in their image, could we not say that we are ourselves gods and there is no need to look elsewhere other than ourselves to find the real word of god?

2000 years ago one didn't need to find excuses not to 'go to church' because one didn't generally have to 'go' anywhere, one WAS The Church, or more accurately a part of the church community.

While I'll leave it to so called 'scholars' to debate the endless debate of whether Jesus/Yeshua was personally a part of these communities, I (and many others) am convinced he was. Imagine going to "church' (every day) in this type of setting and hearing Yeshua teach:

www.pbs.org...

A lot of you have shared why you don't go to church or believe in God. I've been there too. I hope you don't mind my sharing with you why I go to church and believe. I believe faith is personal and I do not believe in pushing it on others. I hope you don't consider my sharing as pushing. I compiled this long ago when I posted on a primarily faith based site and found myself answering the same things over and over again. So, this is an old copy and paste of a something I wrote a few years back.

Not one person can argue you into the Kingdom of Heaven. I am only a Christian because of the grace of God. I have read many holy books from other faiths such as the Koran (and al-hadith), the Bhagavad Gita, parts of some Buddhist writings, Hare Krishna literature, the Tao Te Ching, the Urantia Book, the Book of Mormon, the Poetic Edda, the Upanishads, and probably others I've forgotten about. I've learned about major world religions, spiritual trends, historical religions that have seen a resurgence (reconstructionist religions), paganism, satanist philosophies, etc. My undergrad degree was in Anthropology, so it would be really strange had I not read a lot.

I was raised Pentecostal. I wanted to believe that the holy scriptures (Christian) were what they claimed to be, but I had some difficulties, I must admit. It does boil down to the ultimate question of whether God exists or not, and how does one know?

I don't consider what I went through to be a true deconversion. I had been a hard core believer for most of my life and never thought I'd change either. However, when it happened, it was enough for me to post a deconversion testimony on a website for former Christians.

It was heartbreaking for me and I really had a difficult time. I did go through my own dark night of the soul. At the same time, I was also overjoyed with not having to go to church anymore, as I truly lost all sense of church services etc. even being remotely useful or relevant to my life. It all seemed so pointless. I saw this huge disconnect between the Church that the New Testament spoke about and what I was seeing in the Pentecostal, Baptist, and independent Christian churches I had gone to every Sunday and Wednesday of my life.

I didn't consider going to those churches that were considered more 'liberal' because while social justice issues are important, I didn't see the point in calling themselves Christian if they were rejecting the fundamentals of the faith anyway. I figured I could be involved in helping others, be more honest with myself in the process, and sleep in on Sundays. Everything I had ever encountered in Christianity seemed to be well intentioned, but wrong somehow.

I began calling myself a Deist, but I wasn't satisfied with that and started researching other religions and philosophies. I liked Taoism, but I honestly didn't see anything else that I considered worth my time to believe in. I couldn't call myself an atheist because I had a few experiences in my life that made me aware of a spiritual world out there. However, knowing this didn't make finding the truth an easy process, and skeptics had a lot of good questions that I began to examine as my own.

Long story short, I was a jaded and bitter individual. I felt I had good reason to be as I had a lot of negative religious/spiritual experiences. I understand where people are coming from who are angry, because I can relate to an extent. However, my bitterness began to turn into hatred of all things Christian, to the point where I started to see that I was becoming the sort of person I didn't want to be. I didn't like myself at all.

I didn't give up my search though. I read a lot. I sent desperate, pleading prayers out for God (if He even existed) to lead me to the truth. It was coming across Orthodox Christianity on the net that piqued my interest. I thought I knew everything about Christianity- enough to know that all the groups I was familiar with weren't going to cut it for me. I found the only Orthodox book at my local Barnes and Noble and bought the beat up and bent copy of it. I read it, I was cautious about it, I tried to dismiss it (but it kept coming to mind), and I eventually decided that I wanted to go visit an Orthodox church.

If I recall correctly, I think it was the Orthodox teaching on hell that really swayed me. It’s not the same. I could never buy into the whole Jonathan Edwards’ Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God thing where God hates everyone and just specifically creates people to torment for eternity. It never rang true. However, reading about what the Orthodox Church believes regarding heaven and hell, it did ring true to me.

So, what is this view of heaven and hell? God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

I was very reluctant to go back to any sort of church again. The first Sunday my husband (who was agnostic at the time) and I even turned around in the church parking lot and went out for coffee instead. However, we eventually made our way in for Divine Liturgy.

How does one explain to someone else about experiencing the presence of God? All I knew was that it wasn't simply my own emotions wreaking havoc with me- some things come from outside of ourselves- and people who know themselves well can discern this difference. (I was raised Pentecostal and I am rather immune to situations designed to manipulate emotions.) It was like being confronted with all of the answers to my questions after my long search. I knew I had to convert. God was there. Christ is in the Eucharist- which is something I had difficulty accepting as I was raised to accept a very different thing as being the truth- but have certainly experienced beyond a doubt since my Chrismation. Can I prove this to you? No. Were our personal experiences enough to prove it to me and my husband? Yes.

I essentially discovered a Christianity that is an entirely different religion from what I knew before. I had to start over again completely. I couldn't go back to what I thought I knew and believed. I just couldn't. There was something missing there, or I wouldn't have been unhappy enough to leave in the first place. We have the same holy scriptures and belief in the trinity, but everything else is radically different. I somehow knew it was my only chance when I discovered the Orthodox Church.

Except, I personally need the Church. I can't go it alone. I need the liturgy, I need the Eucharist, I need the prayers of the Church, and I especially need all of the sacraments of Christ's Holy Church . I need to go the hospital for what ails me; the ark of our salvation. I need the medicine of immortality.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Demoncreeper
Why should I go to church? What is there for me, that I can't get to, or find, on my own?

This is a very good question and I offer two answers:

1.) To provide another avenue in augmenting your personal relationship with God, gain knowledge, enjoy singing and group prayer. Being the individuals that we are, there's only so much we can teach ourselves. Often it helps hearing another paradigm on who God is and what He is doing from a pastor and other church attendees.

2.) The opportunity to serve others. This can be as simple as sharing joys, sorrows, providing comfort or understanding or as complex as getting involved in activities such as distributing food to the needy or participating in classes such as marriage counseling (for example).

Surely these are things you could do on your own, just as a farmer can plow a field with a garden spade instead of a plow.

The problem with 1 is EVERY religion attempts to explain their version of God to me. I only get to know the people who blindly believe their God is the true God. Thus, leaving me a stranger to a God at all.

Number 2 is clear. I have volunteered my time and my children's time to assisting the needy, getting involved in community events and so forth.

I guess it boils down to brands, in the end.

"God is The Spirit that moves in all things".

That is a saying and a teaching that I have never forgotten.

The more we come to understand how The Spirit moves, the more we come to understand the 'will of god'.

Only one who doesnt understand spirituality thinks that church has anything to do with it...

I don't make any excuses. I'm just not going to go