1.21 Gigawatts!? National Ignition Facility Announces: LIFE Fusion Within 6 to 18 Months!

I don't get your posts Jdub - here you are boasting about a scientific breakthrough - courtesy of Big Government Funding - yet in other posts you constantly deride Obama for funding such research into alternative energies or technology, like electric vehicles or batteries.

The National Ignition Facility is a part of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which is a program of the U.S. Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration - all of it 100% financed by the government to the tune of billions of dollars. The DoE funds these programs (as well as loan programs to projects like Solyndra) because this is what it takes to achieve scientific breakthroughs that can reshape the energy landscape.

Yet instead you choose to turn those into political footballs, then come in here boasting when one makes a breakthrough. You can't have it both ways.

Bush created several energy subsidy programs for automakers, the FreedomCar, the Hydrogen Fuel Initiative and Fuel Partnership, and the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program in 2008 (which alone cost 25 billion). (source) No right-wing think tank complained back then, instead they championed it.

Then, just as now, the goal for these subsidies and loans is to get Americans weaned off of expensive fossil fuels in favor of renewable resources.

The NIF and this particular project only made this breakthrough thanks in part to Obama's efforts to renew funding for it;

Despite the alleged "completion" in 2009 - six years late and several billions of dollars over budget - of the National Ignition Facility (NIF) for laser fusion at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, the Obama Administration proposes to continue spending $481.5 million in FY 2011 and subsequent years on an "Inertial Confinement Fusion and High Yield Campaign," with no diminution in annual funding to reflect the end of the 14 year construction effort. Through 2015, including the FY2011 request, the Administration proposes to spend another $2.4 billion on NNSA's fusion ignition quest, on top of the estimated $5 billion prior Administrations have already spent just to deliver the giant laser facility. No one really understands the true cost of the NIF because Livermore has siphoned funds from other lab programs to support the NIF Project, while NNSA has off-loaded many components of what was to have been an "ignition ready" NIF into future year "operating" budgets.

(source)

Now, where would you be, if Obama hadn't committed to renewable energies? For every Solyndra you get a laser-fusion breakthrough. That's the cost of progress.

For the record, Bush also committed a lot of funding to renewable energy (as did Clinton) but the right-wing think tanks producing these hit-pieces on Obama seem to forget about Bush and treat subsidizing or loan programs to energy programs like it was wholly invented by Obama just to screw Americans. A budget hawk might have cut this funding, and we'd be looking at another 20 years of Coal and Big Oil (which, by the way, got 75 billion in subsidies under Bush).

Renewable energy programs are the new scientific frontier. They are our space race, everything about our society hinges on it. And like the space race, it's going to cost a lot. It will have it's share of failures. But eventually we can rid ourselves of non-renewable, limited resources like coal and fossil fuels.

Well I for one am pretty pleased to hear this news .... Maybe the threat of other energy technologies coming online will finally kick the fusion crowd in the butt and get them serious about making fusion a reality!

you can make your on cold fusion reactor.
onli thing jour need is palladium electrode.
If put in h2o and electrized creates extra cheat and helium (proof that fusion hapend)
But bicos is so cheap and no radiation is detectet so col "scientist" call it imposibble.
Last time when Italian scientist prooft that it is posible ,was kick on the street from uniwersity.
Its simple : if ther is no multi bilion dolar inwestment and 50 yeras on reshersh it is scientific
imposible ,bicos dolars counts mor fo reshersers than science and future of civilisation.
ps.
Sory for my anglish

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
I knew I should have added "I deliberately didn't mention the Rossi e-Cat device as it is still controversial and unverified".

Except that it has been verified and there are a half a dozen threads with all the cites and links to its verification's despite a a few flat earthers here who continue to deny and poorly try to obfuscate it!

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
I knew I should have added "I deliberately didn't mention the Rossi e-Cat device as it is still controversial and unverified".

Except that it has been verified and there are a half a dozen threads with all the cites and links to its verification's despite a a few flat earthers here who continue to deny and poorly try to obfuscate it!

It hasn't been peer reviewed. The closest thing to verification were a couple scientists in the audience that got to look at sensors and write a report on the readings. Not even with their own instruments...

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
I knew I should have added "I deliberately didn't mention the Rossi e-Cat device as it is still controversial and unverified".

Except that it has been verified and there are a half a dozen threads with all the cites and links to its verification's despite a a few flat earthers here who continue to deny and poorly try to obfuscate it!

Until the E-cat is run in a 24 hour and 1 week test under full power without any outside power source of any kind its does not count.
These test are industry standard tests of all power plants.

Even a National Ignition Facility Fusion plant will have to pass these tests.

That means the Rossi e-Cat is only a experimental plant at the best and a scam at the worst until it passes the tests

reply to post by ANNED


All Rossi has to do is unplug his unit during "self sustain" mode. Dick Smith and his team figured how he can still feed it power through the ground plug. Rossi claims he leaves it plugged in for "safety".

People need to do their own research and read the several dozen articles white papers and follow the links (many of which have been posted here in several threads) to know that several prominent scientist have verified the Rossi E-Cat puts out more then is put in and that there is no trickery involved. The E-cat does not need the kind of testing the flat earthers keep calling for because it already has results and is in operation at a customers facility.

Oh and FYI having a power supply plugged in and getting more output then input is not a bad thing it is in fact a major break through.

As I have said in the past Idiots were claiming manned air flight were impossible while the Wright brothers were soaring over their pea brains as they spoke it! So the malcontents will keep cackling about how it aint so even when people are buying them from Home Depot...

The dogs can keep yapping but this train keeps moving forward and picking up speed.... yap yap yapyap...

reply to post by hawkiye

...know that several prominent scientist have verified the Rossi E-Cat puts out more then is put in and that there is no trickery involved.

No one ruled out that the ground wire could have been feeding in additional electricity as the ground wire wasn't monitored during tests:

According to a report issued by the Australian Skeptics, Bryce found that in all six published tests of the E-Cat up to July — every test in which excess power production was directly measured — the setup was such that a misconnected earth lead (the wire that is usually grounded in an electric circuit ) could have been funneling up to 3 kilowatts of power into the machine's steam generator long after the other wires were turned off.

Because there were no power meters measuring the flow of energy in the earth lead, all this energy would seem to be surplus, and would appear as if it were being generated by reactions within the E-Cat itself.

*

The E-cat does not need the kind of testing the flat earthers keep calling for because it already has results and is in operation at a customers facility.

Which customer?

New Energy Times has learned that Andrea Rossi’s one-megawatt “Energy Catalyzer” never shipped to his unidentified customer. The reason: leaky gaskets.

A Jan. 12, 2012, promotional video on Rossi’s Web site, Ecat.com, shows the same 1MW E-Cat sitting in the same place where it was “tested” by “the customer” three and half months ago.

*

Oh and FYI having a power supply plugged in and getting more output then input is not a bad thing it is in fact a major break through.

If you are doing proper calorimetry then sure.

So the malcontents will keep cackling about how it aint so even when people are buying them from Home Depot...

Home depot was an absolute joke. Rossi said he had "meetings" with them. Which could have been a lunch meeting with a cashier for all you know. He paid for his flight to NASA and acted like they invited him. Every person he talks to, he plays off like it lends some credibility to his system...

Just like he claimed he was in a partnership with National Instruments but all he was doing was buying controls from them. Then suddenly their collaboration was over. Something about "puppet snakes, clowns" and a "primadonna" (Rossi's words)

*

Scientist from the Swedish Skeptics Society verified the E-Cat. Who the hell is the Australian Skeptics? Nobody cares they have no evidence.

New Energy Times is a hack job that flat earthers use to quote against anything that exposes their BS. Like has been said many times anyone who wants can review several dozen articles at PESN linked in many threads here linking all the tests, prominent scientists, evidence, and links etc if they want. Or they can listen to the dogs continue to yap at the heels of progress...

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

I don't get your posts Jdub

Of course you don't when you are so blinded in your devotion that it strikes you as political when I decry obvious non-economically justifiable wastes and payoffs to cronies.

(Have you even read his books? Do you really want this country governed by "the Dreams of [His] Father?)

As for the NIF, it is the fruit of the foresight and determination of several administrations before Obama ever took ANY elected office.

His paltry $481 million in NIF/LIFE appropriations doesn't even begin to cover the utter waste of Billions on crony payoffs that serve no purpose other than preservation of his administration and the achievement of his and his father's agenda.

The big difference you and others overlook about the Solyndra, A123, Obamacare and other abominations is that there will be a huge return on the investment from the NIF!

You cannot say that about a single of Obama's extravagances thus far.

To call them "investments" does not make them so; especially when his own OMB, inspectors general and ombudsmen warn of the lack of economic justification for the spending!

- here you are boasting about a scientific breakthrough - courtesy of Big Government Funding - yet in other posts you constantly deride Obama for funding such research into alternative energies or technology, like electric vehicles or batteries.

First, there is no such thing as "renewable" alternatives, as each of them depend upon scarce and costly resources for development, such as rare earths and water.

As for Obama's alleged "research into alternative enrgies and techolohy," what does that even mean?

Alternative energies? Are there some "energies" other than those that have already been known and applied for hundreds of years?

Alternative technology is another thing altogether. In almost every instance this wastrel administration has "invested" in tech "like electric vehilces and batteries," there has lurked a political payoff, payback, lack of economic justification, and most importantly, NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT!

Cite GM, which has cost us $26 billion so far, and already another $20 billion as the stock drops steadily since the IPO.
Cite A123, Solyndra, et al. Again, no return on investment and no economnic justification for the spenidng in the first place.

The NIF will pay off in information, energy, and ultimate cost savings far beyond any or all of the Obama DOE's programs ever will.

jw

Of course you don't when you are so blinded in your devotion that it strikes you as political when I decry obvious non-economically justifiable wastes and payoffs to cronies.

So research into alternative energies - like solar - is a "non-economically justifiable wastes"? Solyndra may have went bankrupt but the USA is lagging badly in research into such options thanks to pig-headed politicians refusal to back it with solid funding. It sucks one company had to fail, but you can't allow that to knock the USA out of all research. Solyndra is not connected to Obama, was in business before he came into office, all he did was jump on getting more loans to companies like Solyndra doing research into alternative energies.

(Have you even read his books? Do you really want this country governed by "the Dreams of [His] Father?)

Wow, that sounds like you have some issues that have nothing to do with government funding of energy research.

As for the NIF, it is the fruit of the foresight and determination of several administrations before Obama ever took ANY elected office.

As was Solyndra and a thousand other companies receiving federal grants and/or loan guarantees. They can't all be winners. When you rant and rave about a company like Solyndra failing, but then come around and boast when a federally funded research lab makes a breakthrough, that sounds like a fair-weather "fan" who only shows up when the team is winning. Here's your analogy - bragging about how great the USA is for the successful launch of the Saturn V rocket, after whining about how wasteful government research on rocket research is after every Atlas exploded on the launch pad.

His paltry $481 million in NIF/LIFE appropriations doesn't even begin to cover the utter waste of Billions on crony payoffs that serve no purpose other than preservation of his administration and the achievement of his and his father's agenda.

Sorry, can't follow the illogical rantings here - what cronies and what "preservation of his administration" and "achievement of his and his father's agenda" - that doesn't even make sense.

The big difference you and others overlook about the Solyndra, A123, Obamacare and other abominations is that there will be a huge return on the investment from the NIF!

Keep telling yourself that as you drive your Chinese-made electric vehicle to the bank to take out a 3rd mortgage to pay for your cancer treatment. Tell yourself "thank god we didn't waste money on firms doing research into alternatives so we got stuck with fracking and coal emissions for the foreseeable future while other countries run circles around us".

First, there is no such thing as "renewable" alternatives, as each of them depend upon scarce and costly resources for development, such as rare earths and water.

No "renewable" alternatives? Really? Ever hear of solar? Hydrogen fuel cells? Wind?

Thank god rational minds prevailed back when this country still had a spine and built the Hoover dam and the Grand Coulee dam (hydroelectric, another one of those "renewable" alternative you obviously believe are myth), because the Republicans we have in office now would be so deep into the pockets of Coal and Big Oil we would never have seen their likes.

Alternative technology is another thing altogether. In almost every instance this wastrel administration has "invested" in tech "like electric vehilces and batteries," there has lurked a political payoff, payback, lack of economic justification, and most importantly, NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT!

The advances in technology ARE the return on investments, and without these investments the US will be woefully left behind, mired in the profit-driven machinery of Big Oil. Right-wing think tanks have stretched their paranoid delusions so far they see connections between Obama and every CEO on the planet as some Marxist plot to destroy the country.

Even if A123 fails, it's been one of the leading researchers and developers of advanced battery tech, it's in use in all development of hybrid vehicles, and a host of other advances beyond the car. Now you want to write it off because it had to layoff employees? These industries get massive government funding in other countries putting ours at a serious disadvantage, and they need that funding to remain not only competitive but until the economics start working in their favor, otherwise it will be another industry lost to foreign competition.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
So research into alternative energies - like solar - is a "non-economically justifiable wastes"? Solyndra may have went bankrupt but the USA is lagging badly in research into such options thanks to pig-headed politicians refusal to back it with solid funding

Do you even know the diference betwen research and production?

Solyndra was a private business, selling a product, to make a profit.
Unfortunarely, its economic model called for it to sell its product for less than what it cost to produce!

What kind of "research" justified that idiocy?

Solyndra , First Solar, et al are businesses, not research centers. You need to try to learn the difference between the two.

. It sucks one company had to fail, but you can't allow that to knock the USA out of all research. Solyndra is not connected to Obama, was in business before he came into office, all he did was jump on getting more loans to companies like Solyndra doing research into alternative energies.

Solyndra's own auditors knew and told Obama that it was failing and that its business model wouldn't work BEFORE he gave away $559million. As far as connections, you are so obviously out of touch it would take an entire thread, of which there are several, to explain this to you. Or did you just choose to ignore them?

Tell yourself "thank god we didn't waste money on firms doing research into alternatives so we got stuck with fracking and coal emissions for the foreseeable future while other countries run circles around us".

Fracking IS an alternative source! The world envies our natural gas production. We should be converting our transport system to LNG instead of wasting it on stupid electrics. Many municipailties and bus systems already use gas; they ALL should.

No "renewable" alternatives? Really? Ever hear of solar? Hydrogen fuel cells? Wind?

Sorry, wrong again.
Solar requires water resources to keep them at optimum. By definition they are located in water-poor areas, so costs are higher for steam generation and maintenance. PV panels have a limited life-span, and degrade.

Wind requires the use of rare earths that are largely controlled by China. There is only ONE rare-earths source in the US and it has limited production. They use tons of concrete and steel. They are NOT renewable.

You left out Geothermal. The largest US geotherm facility, the Geysers, is running out of steam! Literally.

Hydrogen fuel cells? What are the substrates/catalysts, and where do they come from? They are not renewable..

Thank god rational minds prevailed ... and built the Hoover dam and the Grand Coulee dam (hydroelectric, another one of those "renewable" alternative

1st, hydro provides about 16% of the world's electricity already, so it is not "alternative."
Do you know how much steel, concrete and men were used in these? They are not renewable. Nor are the silt damage and dead fish.

jw

reply to post by jdub297


Fusion equals BOMB
When someone tells you they want to make sure the REACTOR can contain its own process...that is NOT good!

The simple truth is this. The Key to Unlocking all Matter is Sound. Period. That is what Pythagoras and others like Keely, and alchemy is all about, RAISING the vibrational speed of the Matter whose platonic solids are the base particle on a molecular level. It alters just like a piezoelectric quartz Chrystal does.

You are supposed to speed up the atom, which does not create or risk explosion. By speeding up the atom you get energy and this is precisely why they attempt to continuously side step real science.

It was never meant to be hard to acquire energy. We used to build our own radios with a dab of crystal and wire wrapped on a toilet paper roll!

It is this simple, you have to forces. One is the negative pole on the battery, and this is the South pole on a Magnet. The other is a positive pole on a battery, and this is the North Pole on a Magnet. What they require is Sunlight. We called it the Chrystal age, and it was renamed the stone age--the stone captures the molecular light, like the same molecular interaction in a chemical battery. All you need do is draw/carve the 'path' into the stone, and that is similar to what the FTP stamps on microchips do as well. You are capturing a micro particle "-/+" photon light.

And the reason copper was valued is because it captured Light, and magnesium under High pressure will make a sheet that does provide that light as well.

These people are building another 'CERN'.
Which is another big bomb. Hundreds of miles, wrapped in a circle, of HYDROGEN! And no one thinks 'Hindenburg'.

It is like the Oil corporations. What they are doing is hazardous, but they promote it to the people as a great success of technology and science. When in fact we already know how to create propulsion systems, light, and other resources in a manner that is beneficial and not costly.

They do not want you to know that you can produce your own energy. And what they are doing is actually building Nation killing sized bombs in major cities, near major fault lines for better effect.

reply to post by YellowRoseTx51

Fusion equals BOMB

That is incorrect. The thermo-nuclear device relies on a fission bomb to ignite a fusion reaction.

Fusion equals SUN.

A little, tiny sun is very nice to have around.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
Scientisits at the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory expect to obtain net energy gain fusion this year, and to take it commercial thereafter!

If it was easy, that would have happened 10 years ago. So it ain't easy, meaning they could be a little optimistic and commercial power from fusion could be another 10 years away. Or 20. Or 30. Or longer.

Unless you count solar power which is from fusion occurring inside the sun.

But hey if they make their optimistic timetable and fusion power goes commercial sooner rather than later, I'll be very impressed.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Scientist from the Swedish Skeptics Society verified the E-Cat.

How did they verify it? I never heard of them doing a test like the one anned described which is what it would take to verify it:

Originally posted by ANNED
Until the E-cat is run in a 24 hour and 1 week test under full power without any outside power source of any kind its does not count.
These test are industry standard tests of all power plants.

Even a National Ignition Facility Fusion plant will have to pass these tests.

That means the Rossi e-Cat is only a experimental plant at the best and a scam at the worst until it passes the tests

Without such a test, it seems to me like it's hawkiye and Rossi doing the yapping, rather than the skeptics.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

If it was easy, that would have happened 10 years ago. So it ain't easy, meaning they could be a little optimistic and commercial power from fusion could be another 10 years away. Or 20. Or 30. Or longer.

The program actually began almost 20 years ago, following up on previous work in Europe.

Construction is generally complete, permitting preliminary testing of sub systems and fine-tuning.
There have been no major delays and work is progressing to get to the point of net-positive energy upon coming ignitions.
lasers.llnl.gov...

jw

reply to post by jdub297


this will not work for commercial power production.


it is impossible.

no way of getting the energy out.

it is a lab experiment that is all.an academic exercise.

all those fancy very powerful lasers with very delicate perfect mirrors/lenses will be showered with dirt /dust/debris from the first explosion...making a second firing explode those very perfect mirrors/lenses.

this is just SPIN to get more funds to keep this employment agency going just like hot ITER.

reply to post by nobodysavedme


From what I understand, taget devris is negligible, given that the D-T reactants are consumed in the ignition and fusion reaction.with minimal impact from the "container."

Time willl tell.

I hate to use the word "impossible" in any situation, as it is often just a reflection of self-imposed limits rather than true physical/mental/social impossibility.

jw

There were lots of articles written about commercial Fusion plants 50 years ago. Obviously its not an easy technology to develop in the private sector, but they have been working on this for a long time. I wonder if TPTB decided to wait till the world got past peak oil production to roll out the technology?

There were scientists in Germany that deliberately stalled the development of nuclear weapons during WW2. That is an easy thing to do when few people know the secrets to the technology. One of the major concerns back in the 60's was that commercial fusion plants might be reverse engineered into weapons. They must have solved this problem either with self limiting "low yield" designs or else they now have faith in their unobtainium administration.

Of course if you are a skeptic you might just follow the money and decide it was the Middle East oil interests that delayed fusion development.