Grandpa Arrested for Holding Burglar at Gunpoint

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

 

You need to put faith in the good people that exist.

I am, you on the other hand are not.

I have far more faith in my fellow men to be good. In fact, I have so much faith that I don't think a coercively funded State is necessary at all.

reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist
I wish that you were right but know human nature too well. There is no way humans could ever exist without rules. Someone would always desire to gain at the expense of others by many means. We are a dumb intelligent race of beings.

A police man would not fire a warning shot but they will shoot at center mass to stop a suspect (even if that suspicion is specious and not prima facie.....like sitting in a church parking lot and rolling up your window when the police person asks you to comply to an order - oh, but that is another story). The man did the right thing given that he did not recklessly discharge the handgun (ie new year's eve celebration) but rather he discharged the weapon to stop a felony in progress and to discourage the criminal from rushing him.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

 

I wish that you were right but know human nature too well. There is no way humans could ever exist without rules. Someone would always desire to gain at the expense of others by many means. We are a dumb intelligent race of beings.

I am right.

There is no wishing involved in this at all.

The State is an institution which is predicated on violent theft.

If you remove the violent theft, people are FORCED to be nice to each other because they will be driven out of society if they are not. The State is the mechanism by which violent men are allowed to act out their aggression without serious repercussions.

In my world, if you act out against your fellow man, you will be driven from society or killed yourself. In our present world, the most you face is some prison time. Prison is far less a punishment than death or ostracism.

reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

Originally posted by n00bUK
I swear, sometimes i think the police's secret task is to 'help' criminals and harras & imprison law abiding citizens.

Its like they look at burglars and think "you know what guys, its probably a good idea to let this man stay free and give him no help at all, so that he can go into peoples houses, cause a rukas and we can then hit the victims with stronger charges", like ABH/ GBH/Possession of a gun with intent, etc. That way we look good"

Insane. . .

People need to call the DA's office en masse and demand the charges be dropped.

What with the amount of laws we have in our society, sadly and frightening it's hard to not break one. While there are laws and ordinances against discharging firearms within city limits and in neighborhoods, etc (with good reason), i have said it many times and i will say it again: the absolute compulsion by law enforcement to charge and the judicial system to prosecute petty BS "crimes" like this.

It's like humanity goes out the window and the robotic "crime-charge" mentality without a bit of thought goes into effect.

Like an animal smelling meat, except not instinctive it's conditioned behavior of law enforcement to make them thoughtless agents for order and control.

It boils down to this: A) letting the population know who is in control and who is in charge, and B) keep the populace dependent on the US Police Force.

ETA:

It's almost like if there is one teeny tiny law broken by anyone they will sniff it out and charge. A guy could run into a burning building and save women and children, but because he jay walked (ran) to get there they will cite him. It's ridiculous, the mentality. Of course, they would likely decide "not to prosecute," but my point still stands.

Originally posted by Tripnman
Mr. Flemming was NOT arrested for holding the burglar at gunpoint. He was arrested for negligent discharge of a firearm. Had he used the weapon to detain (or neutralize) the threat in his own home, things would be much different. Mr. Flemming was not in his home, there was no imminent and immediate threat to himself, his family or those around him and as such use of such force was not justified.


See related post

edit on 23-2-2012 by Tripnman because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-2-2012 by Tripnman because: URL repair

I have a huge problem with your statement. IMHO you should immediately stripped of your membership here. First rule of stealing from me, If I catch you I will use any means necessary to be certain that you remember that act for the rest of your life. Thieves deserve to have their knees and elbows broken. Had I caught him I would have shot him and said he went for a weapon. Screw shooting the ground. Yup I would get arrested and yup there WOULD be a jury trial..........

reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist
In theory you're philosophy should work but...... I study history of the world and find that that tactic occurred in societies before. societies kicked out bad individuals from their communities but it rarely worked long. These individuals coagulated and acquired weapons and eventually attacked the communities they were exiled from and stole their wealth and women. The ones that banished them now were exiled if they were allowed to live. You need to do a little more studying on what doesn't fit your perception to find the whole truth. It's easy to find evidence that fits you're way of thinking but it's harder to see information that is in conflict with your thoughts. History seems to repeat itself. I know lots but have no answers yet of how to create a better world.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

 

In theory you're philosophy should work but...... I study history of the world and find that that tactic occurred in societies before. societies kicked out bad individuals from their communities but it rarely worked long. These individuals coagulated and acquired weapons and eventually attacked the communities they were exiled from and stole their wealth and women. The ones that banished them now were exiled if they were allowed to live. You need to do a little more studying on what doesn't fit your perception to find the whole truth. It's easy to find evidence that fits you're way of thinking but it's harder to see information that is in conflict with your thoughts. History seems to repeat itself. I know lots but have no answers yet of how to create a better world.

I study history too.

I find that most "bad people" work for the State.

If you think "bad people" are a problem in general, then what makes you think that as soon as people start working for the State the suddenly become "not bad".

Are all the people who work for the State angels? How are they different than the rest of people in society?

I find that people who are attracted to power generally gravitate toward jobs as bureaucrats. These are precisely the type of people who you do not want to be in control of a monopoly of violence.

The Russians and Chinese managed to kill a 100 million of their own people.

The US government has racked up an impressive kill score of its own, with 700,000 dead in the Civil War, followed by millions killed during peace time post WWII in Germany. Let's not forget the millions who died due to US sanctions in the gulf.

reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist
No, not all people that work for the state are bad. I know a lot of state and federal employees at lower levels and I do not see that at all. I know some people that have or are working in our states congress and they are good people. I also know some that are corrupt. Some of our elected officials are just trying to get help for the people who elected them and are trying to keep things moving. I know the whole system is a mess but I don't agree with you're statement that the people running it are knowingly corrupt. You seem to be a good debater and have retained you're civility well. I know neither of us will probably change the others perception very much but I have learned from your posts.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

 

No, not all people that work for the state are bad. I know a lot of state and federal employees at lower levels and I do not see that at all. I know some people that have or are working in our states congress and they are good people. I also know some that are corrupt. Some of our elected officials are just trying to get help for the people who elected them and are trying to keep things moving. I know the whole system is a mess but I don't agree with you're statement that the people running it are knowingly corrupt. You seem to be a good debater and have retained you're civility well. I know neither of us will probably change the others perception very much but I have learned from your posts.

Not all are bad, just most.

There is no reason to trust a bureaucrat more than a private security guard.

I'd rather have Brinks Security guarding my home than a violent pig who makes his living by robbing people.

reply to post by rickymouse


In Cullen Murphy's "God's Jury" a pretty solid case is made that even the low-level clock-punching employee is just as responsible as the tyrant king disseminating direct rule by virtue of justifying the state.

Every 9-5'er just working for the weekend is in a sense contributing to gun-point property confiscation, bombing children, stockpiling warheads, bailing out corporacrats, using deadly force to extort and enforce victimless "moral" legislation and otherwise infringing upon basic liberty.

The state grows as it is fed by them until it no longer needs them but exists on its own like some perpetually hungry and heavily armed artificial intelligence.

It's a great book. Makes you suspicious of any group or organization. Especially one that controls all the jails, guns and sways popular opinion as much as the state does.

reply to post by SkyMuerte


Forgive me, but what part of my statement do you have a problem with? It is a fact that Mr. Flemming was arrested for negligent discharge of a firearm, not for the act of detaining the suspect. Not sure how that can be disputed - please check the source. The title of the OP is misleading once you see the full story.

As for the rest of it, perhaps I was too vague so let me restate - I personally have no problem with what he did as long as he had a proper sight picture of his target (the ground!) and was confident that no innocents would be harmed. Keep in mind that Mr. Flemming was not stopping a threat to himself - the suspect was in his neighbor's house. Can't say I'd do the same in his situation, but if the threat was in my home, there would be no witnesses and one less bad guy to clog up the system.

EDIT: Yes, Mr. Flemming's home had been robbed, but how was he to know that the suspect seen exiting his neighbor's house was the same one that had been in his?

Really, I think we're on the same page. Keep up the good fight!

reply to post by thisguyrighthere
I understand that the "go with the flow" concept is contributing to corruption at high levels. I also see that many countries would attempt to throw over other countries if they could and would fabricate evidence to justify their actions. In order for the United States to exist in this world under the present structure of the world it needs to be powerful. This poses a problem when trying to simplify things. Canada knows that the United States power balances the world power and stabilizes their countries security even though they do not agree with us on many things. I don't even agree with the way the country does things. I have no alternative system to contribute so I can not challenge Our government. I do try to contribute some Philosophy at ATS hoping someone with influence may see what I see. I understand fully that what I know is not all there is to know. This country is stuck in crap so complex that it's hard to get out of it. It's a lot bigger than most people realize.

Originally posted by SkyMuerte

Originally posted by Tripnman
Mr. Flemming was NOT arrested for holding the burglar at gunpoint. He was arrested for negligent discharge of a firearm. Had he used the weapon to detain (or neutralize) the threat in his own home, things would be much different. Mr. Flemming was not in his home, there was no imminent and immediate threat to himself, his family or those around him and as such use of such force was not justified.


See related post

edit on 23-2-2012 by Tripnman because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-2-2012 by Tripnman because: URL repair

I have a huge problem with your statement. IMHO you should immediately stripped of your membership here. First rule of stealing from me, If I catch you I will use any means necessary to be certain that you remember that act for the rest of your life. Thieves deserve to have their knees and elbows broken. Had I caught him I would have shot him and said he went for a weapon. Screw shooting the ground. Yup I would get arrested and yup there WOULD be a jury trial..........

This site has seriously changed. Maybe I need to just stop opening threads like this one. I've read some truly disturbing posts on this thread and the other one covering this story.

Oh yeah, they dropped the charges on this guy so you can all get your panties unwound.

Way to go Grandpa! Some laws on the books really need to be changed. I would be surprised if they can make this stick. Any judge in their right mind should dismiss it.

reply to post by AnarchoCapitalist

There is no one more pro 2nd amendment than I am, but this guy was wrong in firing his weapon at an unarmed man that did not pose a threat to his safety or his life.

Another thing to add to the list of problems with our government. Makes me sick!!!

Obviously we need to carry a cap gun with us along with our real firearms, surreptitiously fire a cap to make the burglar think a real shot has been fired, and hold him for police. Then showing that the real firearm wasn't used! lol So who was he recklessly endangering? Worms? I guess the prosecutors must be bored.

police everywhere should quit their jobs. the job description is nothing short of selling out your fellow man. one slave whipping another slave

Once when I was 16, my mom was taking a nap on the couch while I was in the same room watching TV. I looked away out the window and noticed a truck parked right by the window like it was a drive through, So I screamed, my mom woke up and the guy in the truck took off like a bat out of hell (the way he moved his hands right before he got them on the wheel looked like he was touching himself too). Well my mom was getting ready for work in a couple hours and I'm not talking a 9 hr shift...I'm talking over the weekend meaning I was about to be alone for at least 48hrs right after this happened. She called in and bought herself a couple more hours so the police could arrive and take a report. They never showed up at all! Even after a neighbor identified who the truck belonged to. Another neighbor offered to keep an eye on our house and thankfully the offender didn't return but what if my neighbor had to come to my rescue (knowing them they would have been waving a gun if this had come up)...Would they catch a charge for possibly saving my life?