Dolan and Alexander - The Great UFO Coverup Debate

Greetings all.

This Wednesday, February 22nd at 7pm EST, Inception Radio Network presents a 3 1/2 hr special production of an on-air debate covering the topic of the United States government’s alleged interest in UFOs through studies operated under deep black operations projects. The UFO ‘Cover-Up’! True or False? This debate will be moderated by the esteemed journalist Leslie Kean and contested by the respected researchers and authors, Dr. John Alexander and Richard Dolan. Listeners will have a chance to listen in, call-in, participate, and decide which side made a better case for the widely discussed argument of whether the government plays a role in UFO investigations…..

The Great UFO Coverup Debate

This debate promises to be one of the more intelligent ones you are likely to hear on this topic. If I were to pick one person to be in my corner for a debate on UFOs in would be Richard Dolan. He has the facts, the logic to put them together and the verbal ability to articulate that logic in a compelling case for UFO reality and government involvement in some kind of cover-up

John Alexander claims that, while UFOs are real, the government hasn't been covering anything up.

I'm very interested to hear how these two discuss the subject. I have a feeling Dolan has a much better case, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I just wanted to let everybody know that this debate is coming up and to ask if anyone thinks they can get the broadcast onto ATS in some form. I'm going to be at work during both the initial debate and the replay at 11:00. I'd love to be able to listen to it at my leisure. If you can help me out I would be very grateful.

I'd also like to hear some thoughts from the ATS crowd on how this debate goes. Check back in afterward to give your opinion.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Orkojoker
Greetings all.

This Wednesday, February 22nd at 7pm EST, Inception Radio Network presents a 3 1/2 hr special production of an on-air debate covering the topic of the United States government’s alleged interest in UFOs through studies operated under deep black operations projects. The UFO ‘Cover-Up’! True or False? This debate will be moderated by the esteemed journalist Leslie Kean and contested by the respected researchers and authors, Dr. John Alexander and Richard Dolan. Listeners will have a chance to listen in, call-in, participate, and decide which side made a better case for the widely discussed argument of whether the government plays a role in UFO investigations…..

The Great UFO Coverup Debate

This debate promises to be one of the more intelligent ones you are likely to hear on this topic. If I were to pick one person to be in my corner for a debate on UFOs in would be Richard Dolan. He has the facts, the logic to put them together and the verbal ability to articulate that logic in a compelling case for UFO reality and government involvement in some kind of cover-up

John Alexander claims that, while UFOs are real, the government hasn't been covering anything up.

I'm very interested to hear how these two discuss the subject. I have a feeling Dolan has a much better case, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I just wanted to let everybody know that this debate is coming up and to ask if anyone thinks they can get the broadcast onto ATS in some form. I'm going to be at work during both the initial debate and the replay at 11:00. I'd love to be able to listen to it at my leisure. If you can help me out I would be very grateful.

I'd also like to hear some thoughts from the ATS crowd on how this debate goes. Check back in afterward to give your opinion.

Thanks!

To believers, such as yourself, Dolan will seem the champion. But Dolan isn't working with any special knowledge, he just repeats what he has learned which is true for all UFO "authorities". Before he became famous I communicated with him and brought to his attention that the photo that he used on his website, of the Washington, DC "UFOs" was simply a misidentified photo of the streetlights and the photo had been cropped to remove the streetlights. When I asked him about the Roswell "crash" he admitted that he believed that a real UFO crashed despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

To me, a believer isn't interested in facts. I'm not familiar with Dr John Alexander but my money is on him as I also don't accept that the U.S. government or any government has any special, inside information. They are just as baffled as we all are as to what UFOs are or where they originate from. NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING!

Ha, ha, Orkojoker. I thought your post was going to be about Alexander the Great and his attack on India crossing the Indus river. According to the historical account, he and his men were intercepted by 'gleaming white shields'.

This is the first link I saw on the subject.

ufo.whipnet.org...

reply to post by Orkojoker


Orkojoker, great thread and many thanks for the heads up , Richard Dolan is a great historical researcher and I think his book 'UFOs and the National Security State' should be read by just about everyone with an interest in (or opinion on) the UFO subject -I don't know if you've seen Spacevisitor's thread about him but he makes some interesting points about government documentation in this clip:

Richard Dolan “The UFO Cover-Up in 10 minutes”

Thread

Hope someone can manage to post the broadcast on ATS!

Cheers.

Originally posted by The Shrike
To believers, such as yourself, Dolan will seem the champion. But Dolan isn't working with any special knowledge, he just repeats what he has learned which is true for all UFO "authorities". Before he became famous I communicated with him and brought to his attention that the photo that he used on his website, of the Washington, DC "UFOs" was simply a misidentified photo of the streetlights and the photo had been cropped to remove the streetlights. When I asked him about the Roswell "crash" he admitted that he believed that a real UFO crashed despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

To me, a believer isn't interested in facts. I'm not familiar with Dr John Alexander but my money is on him as I also don't accept that the U.S. government or any government has any special, inside information. They are just as baffled as we all are as to what UFOs are or where they originate from. NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING!

Thanks for the response, Shrike. That's interesting that you communicated with Dolan "back in the day" so to speak. I agree that he certainly doesn't have any special knowledge that isn't publicly available to the rest of us, though I've rarely heard anyone lay out the relevant information in such an articulate and concise way. He also seems to have a good deal of skepticism, I've noticed, and he is certainly willing to make clear the distinction between what he "knows" and what he "believes" - a distinction that is glossed over by far to many people who speak publicly about this topic.

I'm sure there are many other photos that Dolan and other researchers have thought might well be legit before finding out otherwise. I would agree that it is best not to jump to conclusions about such "evidence" However, to imply that Richard Dolan is not interested in the facts is clearly a mischaracterization. He presents a lot of verified facts in both his writings and his lectures as a basis for his thoughts on this subject. Allowing oneself to speculate a bit beyond the established facts does not indicate that one is not interested in them.

Regarding the possibility of a "cover-up", I wouldn't necessarily say that any of the world's governments has the answers to what is going on. What I would say is that parts of the U.S. government and/or military are aware that "something" is going on with UFOs that is out of the ordinary, and they have been denying their awareness of this fact for several decades. This information, at the very least, has been covered up. Beyond that, who knows.

reply to post by karl 12


Thanks for the link, karl. I'll give it a look. Dolan's National Security State series is high on my own list of must-read UFO lit. I'm looking forward to volume III.

Originally posted by Orkojoker

Originally posted by The Shrike
To believers, such as yourself, Dolan will seem the champion. But Dolan isn't working with any special knowledge, he just repeats what he has learned which is true for all UFO "authorities". Before he became famous I communicated with him and brought to his attention that the photo that he used on his website, of the Washington, DC "UFOs" was simply a misidentified photo of the streetlights and the photo had been cropped to remove the streetlights. When I asked him about the Roswell "crash" he admitted that he believed that a real UFO crashed despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

To me, a believer isn't interested in facts. I'm not familiar with Dr John Alexander but my money is on him as I also don't accept that the U.S. government or any government has any special, inside information. They are just as baffled as we all are as to what UFOs are or where they originate from. NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING!

Thanks for the response, Shrike. That's interesting that you communicated with Dolan "back in the day" so to speak. I agree that he certainly doesn't have any special knowledge that isn't publicly available to the rest of us, though I've rarely heard anyone lay out the relevant information in such an articulate and concise way. He also seems to have a good deal of skepticism, I've noticed, and he is certainly willing to make clear the distinction between what he "knows" and what he "believes" - a distinction that is glossed over by far to many people who speak publicly about this topic.

I'm sure there are many other photos that Dolan and other researchers have thought might well be legit before finding out otherwise. I would agree that it is best not to jump to conclusions about such "evidence" However, to imply that Richard Dolan is not interested in the facts is clearly a mischaracterization. He presents a lot of verified facts in both his writings and his lectures as a basis for his thoughts on this subject. Allowing oneself to speculate a bit beyond the established facts does not indicate that one is not interested in them.

Regarding the possibility of a "cover-up", I wouldn't necessarily say that any of the world's governments has the answers to what is going on. What I would say is that parts of the U.S. government and/or military are aware that "something" is going on with UFOs that is out of the ordinary, and they have been denying their awareness of this fact for several decades. This information, at the very least, has been covered up. Beyond that, who knows.

edit on 21-2-2012 by Orkojoker because: (no reason given)

I appreciate your calm and collected reply and you certainly make sense. But since we're dealing with public knowledge, as you point out, putting that knowledge in any particular way, good or bad, doesn't add to it. Everyone that publishes their view is publishing colored POVs since as I stated no one has any knowledge that's not public and what is not public does not contain anything that will change our knowledge for, IMO, no one has been able to access secret info which I'm sure is secret insofar as revealing only the methods of acquiring said info.

My opinion is that no one on earth knows anything secret about UFOs and/or aliens/ETs if they really exist as we think of them. And, of course, I do not accept any popular view that even a single UFO has crashed and that we or any government has acquired a crashed UFO and is reverse engineering or that there are aliens in captivity or in pickle "jars".

We see 'em, we photograph 'em, we video 'em, but we don't know anything about 'em.

And, finally, as a natural skeptic who accepts the reality of UFOs 'cause I've had solid sightings, I don't put much stock into what believers say. If they report facts as facts, that's great. But being believers, they're missing out on reality.

Addition: Here is one reason why I'm not a Dolan enthusiast and really consider him "hokey". After I got through typing the above reply I went back to the beginning of the thread and came down to karl 12's reply to Orkojoker which includes a video titled: Richard Dolan "The UFO Cover-up in 10 Minutes". I started to watch it. UFO tyros may enjoy the video but as a long-time veteran I couldn't stand to listen to him. He does not present anything worthwhile watching and he relies on really old material. and the video method, which remind me of the awful TV show TMZ with the never-ending videographers' camera hijinks, and at 3:01 the "infamous" Wash., DC photo is shown! He is still up to his old tricks!

Richard Dolan a "serious" researcher, not in my book!

Originally posted by The Shrike
...
My opinion is that no one on earth knows anything secret about UFOs and/or aliens/ETs if they really exist as we think of them. And, of course, I do not accept any popular view that even a single UFO has crashed and that we or any government has acquired a crashed UFO and is reverse engineering or that there are aliens in captivity or in pickle "jars".
...

You should watch the video from John Greenwald Jr to understand the government's true interest in UFOs. The video changed my opinion. Alexander will probably clobber Dolan but only because Dolan is only pretending to be a unbiased serious researcher. I wish the debate was between Alexander and Greenwald. Then it might be a different.

Here is the thread:
UFO Government Documentary Evidence

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by The Shrike
...
My opinion is that no one on earth knows anything secret about UFOs and/or aliens/ETs if they really exist as we think of them. And, of course, I do not accept any popular view that even a single UFO has crashed and that we or any government has acquired a crashed UFO and is reverse engineering or that there are aliens in captivity or in pickle "jars".
...

You should watch the video from John Greenwald Jr to understand the government's true interest in UFOs. The video changed my opinion. Alexander will probably clobber Dolan but only because Dolan is only pretending to be a unbiased serious researcher. I wish the debate was between Alexander and Greenwald. Then it might be a different.

Here is the thread:
UFO Government Documentary Evidence

edit on 21-2-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Sorry, but, again, I was ahead of the curve because back in the '90s when Greenwald came on the nascent UFO forums asking for contributions I was in contact with him. You could say he is to be congratulated for becoming his own industry but he is nothing but a document acquirer/archivist. Like Dolan, all he can do is recite what he has read written by others. Of course governments have "true inteest" in UFOs, they're up there and down here and the governments which specialize in control cannot control 'em! Like everyone else all they can do is wonder.

Originally posted by The Shrike
...
Sorry, but, again, I was ahead of the curve because back in the '90s when Greenwald came on the nascent UFO forums asking for contributions I was in contact with him. You could say he is to be congratulated for becoming his own industry but he is nothing but a document acquirer/archivist. Like Dolan, all he can do is recite what he has read written by others. Of course governments have "true inteest" in UFOs, they're up there and down here and the governments which specialize in control cannot control 'em! Like everyone else all they can do is wonder.

Alexander claims that the U.S. government has no official group collecting and studying UFO reports. Greenwald could show evidence that government is collecting UFO reports at NORAD which shows that Alexander is either mistaken or deliberately misleading people (in my opinion). (Also Greenwald is a better speaker.)

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by The Shrike
...
Sorry, but, again, I was ahead of the curve because back in the '90s when Greenwald came on the nascent UFO forums asking for contributions I was in contact with him. You could say he is to be congratulated for becoming his own industry but he is nothing but a document acquirer/archivist. Like Dolan, all he can do is recite what he has read written by others. Of course governments have "true inteest" in UFOs, they're up there and down here and the governments which specialize in control cannot control 'em! Like everyone else all they can do is wonder.

Alexander claims that the U.S. government has no official group collecting and studying UFO reports. Greenwald could show evidence that government is collecting UFO reports at NORAD which shows that Alexander is either mistaken or deliberately misleading people (in my opinion). (Also Greenwald is a better speaker.)

edit on 21-2-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Well, I'm all for waiting for the evidence which may not necessarily reflect reality since nothing associated with our government can be relied upon. Without knowing better but flying on fumes I'll say that there is no official body dedicated to UFO reports which is all that anyone has to work with. Processing UFO reports could be done by one person while giving the impression that there could be a small or large team. Wasting time on processing reports is not going to add to the database since nothing new has happened UFOwise. When was the last time that you read or heard anything associated with UFOs that was earthshaking, with irrefutable evidence?

If neither Alexander or Greenwal is able to present anything other than reports, then neither is worth anyone's time.

I should have thought to post this earlier, but for those who are unfamiliar with Richard Dolan, here is a very brief clip of a small but significant part of what he has to say on the topic of UFOs:



Read his article yourself to decide whether what he says makes sense.

Twelve Government Documents That Take UFOs Seriously

Number 11 is my favorite.

It has been well proven that UFO's exist. There is no Argument in that.

The question is, whether the "UFO" is of 20th/21st Century, Human Earth Technology, OR a mistaken interpretation of normal and natural phenomenon.(eg Planets, Meteors, aircraft lights, ball lightening, satellites, space junk, etc)...........

OR

A UFO IS a bona fide, NON 20th/21st Century, Human Earth Technology.

Most ATS'ers are beyond the UFO=Aliens scenario. And are well aware of "Other" theories.

With the "Military Complex 50 years in the Future" statements, we can be 100% correct in stating that, "Every "UFO" must = Aliens", is not an intelligent theory.

There are Lots of people out there, that still mistake Venus and Meteor flashes as Alien UFOs.

Kevin Randle makes quite a good point below about the subject and there's also an interesting news article dealing with government UFO documentation which mentions how U.S. Embassies are being used to gather UFO information which is then sent on to the CIA - the reading gets a bit difficult towards the end but it does make some very good points about how the CIA is lying when it says its 'closed its books' on UFOs.

Of course there is a government cover up. The Condon Committee, if nothing else, proves that. We can look at the documentation and prove it. We can present documents from the CIA in which they claim they have no interest in UFOs, and then present other documents proving they do

Kevin Randle

Article:

CIA Papers Detail UFO Surveillance:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/58c7adfaebbd.gif[/atsimg]

The C.I.A. has repeatedly said that it investigated and closed it's books on U.F.O.'s during 1952, according to Ground Saucer Watch, a nation-wide research organization of about 500 scientists, engineers and others who seek to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of U.f.O.'s, but 100 pages of documents obtained under a freedom of information suit, show "the Government has been lying to us all these years," it said.


Embassies Gather Information

Mr. Spaulding an aerospace engineer with Airesearch, one of the largest producers of aerospace components, said the documents show the United States embassies are used to help gather information on U.F.O. sightings and that the information "seems to be directed to the C.I.A., the White House and the National Security Agency."

Link

Cheers.

reply to post by The Shrike


Don't be so dismissive. That youtube video hardly compares to the book. This man did his research. All fact and no speculation. He is easily one of the best in the field. For you to purposely overlook it is simply a testament to your ignorance.

reply to post by karl 12


Excellent find, karl. Thanks for sharing. That article represents one of my favorite episodes from the historical UFO drama.

Let's not forget that if MANY 'UFO reports' are, as my research indicates, sparked by secret space and missile activity [US, Soviet, Chinese, etc] then government agencies OUGHT to be interested in raw reports if only to harvest information about the secret military activities of their adversaries -- as well as determining how much of their OWN secret activities are 'leaking' out as 'UFO reports'.

See my articles on Soviet-era 'Russian UFOs' here:
www.jamesoberg.com/ufo.html

In this view, official interest in 'UFO reports' is driven NOT by the realization that 'UFOs are REAL' but by the knowledge that, at least in the overwhelming percentage of cases, they are NOT 'real' but represent other REAL aerial activities of serious concern to specific intelligence organizations.

Those that would like to play down or dismiss ANY ET connection or any possible circumstantial evidence pointing to a ET origin for even a small percentage of sighting,reports and close encounters of various degrees will always invoke the black opp/secret military teck cards.To dismiss people like Dr James. E .MacDonald and his expert investigation's and witness testimony's is simply unscientific and arrogant. Take the two quotes below from the astronomer Bernard Haisch who has an impressive CV, he clearly indicates that there is definitely something worth investigating and that serious scientific minds should start doing their homework on the hundreds of UFO sightings that do contain levels of high strangeness accompanied with credible witnesses be they military or scientific.

At present the ET possibility cannot be ruled out,dismissed or ridiculed for simply being one of the possible sources for those UFO cases that have after investigation's,(James E MacDonald), shown to contain high levels of strangeness and technological feats that defy present technological capabilities.Then there is the abduction side to this subject,are ALL these people lying,deluded and suffering from mental illnesses or are they simply experiencing real events ,be they alien or some other dimensional phenomenon there have been far to many people over the years coming forward with such encounters and at great expense to their credibility and characters. Science in default with an inadequate scientific investigation into the UFO phenomenon is the real reason that this phenomenon up till now has eluded science ect into even a small understanding of the origins of the more complex and high strangeness cases that have occurred. Science and those academical mind sets need to get this subject by the balls and treat it seriously and with respect and stop thinking that they know all that there is to know about every thing when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

the book UFOs and the National Security State: An Unclassified History. Vol. 1: 1947-1973 by Richard Dolan; also The Missing Times by Terry Hansen which documents the history of ties between the national media and the intelligence community. I am aware that these two books have been criticised for over-reliance on secondary sources. More scholarly work is available, such as that of Jan Aldrich, but I think that Dolan and Hansen present a useful and eye-opening introduction to the situation in general, especially for someone first approaching this topic.)

link; www.ufoskeptic.org...

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism. If a competent witness reports having seen something tens of degrees of arc in size (as happens) and the scoffer -- who of course was not there -- offers Venus or a high altitude weather balloon as an explanation, the requirement of extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim falls on the proffered negative claim as well. That kind of approach is also pseudo-science.


Moreover just being a scientist confers neither necessary expertise nor sufficient knowledge. (I wish it did, sigh.) Any scientist who has not read a few serious books and articles presenting actual UFO evidence should out of intellectual honesty refrain from making scientific pronouncements. To look at the evidence and go away unconvinced is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it nonetheless is another. That is not science. Do your homework!

link; www.ufoskeptic.org...

Originally posted by JimOberg
Let's not forget that if MANY 'UFO reports' are, as my research indicates, sparked by secret space and missile activity [US, Soviet, Chinese, etc] then government agencies OUGHT to be interested in raw reports if only to harvest information about the secret military activities of their adversaries -- as well as determining how much of their OWN secret activities are 'leaking' out as 'UFO reports'.

See my articles on Soviet-era 'Russian UFOs' here:
www.jamesoberg.com/ufo.html

In this view, official interest in 'UFO reports' is driven NOT by the realization that 'UFOs are REAL' but by the knowledge that, at least in the overwhelming percentage of cases, they are NOT 'real' but represent other REAL aerial activities of serious concern to specific intelligence organizations.

So I wonder what caused the government to switch to the policy recommendations of the Robertson Panel? It seems like UFO hysteria would help to hide the secret rocket launches by flooding the newspapers with contactee stories and hoaxes.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Let's not forget that if MANY 'UFO reports' are, as my research indicates, sparked by secret space and missile activity [US, Soviet, Chinese, etc] then government agencies OUGHT to be interested in raw reports if only to harvest information about the secret military activities of their adversaries -- as well as determining how much of their OWN secret activities are 'leaking' out as 'UFO reports'.

See my articles on Soviet-era 'Russian UFOs' here:
www.jamesoberg.com/ufo.html

In this view, official interest in 'UFO reports' is driven NOT by the realization that 'UFOs are REAL' but by the knowledge that, at least in the overwhelming percentage of cases, they are NOT 'real' but represent other REAL aerial activities of serious concern to specific intelligence organizations.

Thanks for gracing my thread with your presence, Jim. Is the debate tonight something you are interested in? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the two participants.

Regarding official interest, it makes a lot of sense to me that intelligence agencies would keep tabs of UFO reports for the reason you mention. They would be derelict in the duties otherwise. What is your take on the category of reports that J. Allen Hynek classified as "close encounter" cases? Certainly many of these reports would be difficult to pass off as secret space and missile activity, though they do appear to be prompted by observations of manufactured objects.